(L) Fullmetal Alchemist Manga Discussion

[CrossoverManiac]

Question about using the Philosopher Stone:

Spoiler for Spoiler about the Philosopher Stone:

Why was Marcoh was about to give Roy his eyesight back but Hohenheim, the Human Philosopher Stone, wasn't able to give Izumi back her lost organs.

[Vicious108]

It's not that Hohenheim wasn't physically able to do it, it's that he didn't feel it was right for him to do it, for her lost organs symbolized a deed which she shouldn't forget.

And his fix was probably almost as relieving as giving her back her lost organs anyway.

[Jmariofan7]

Originally Posted by mechalord

The author is Japanese. I thought it could be an allegorical take on the politics of asia.

Father could be a representation of modern China. Xerxes would be ancient China. Modern power built on the remant of a former Empire. The souls of the philosopher's stone, the chinese people and chinese culture? The are suppressed by the guy in charge.

Father would be marxist government leaders. He publicly portrays himself as virtuous and without moral equal, a living model of marxist virtues, subduing human nature, working for a greater ideal. But in reality he's the greediest and most selfish person in society. He would be Mao or Lenin? Gets an elite to follow along w/ promises of glory.

Like a totalitarian government, Father injects himself under the entire country, controlling the flow of "energy" the alchemists draw their power from. He also runs the entire government from the chair he uses to control the power of alchemy.

In the end the governments own greed helps bring down its downfall? Human nature wins. Human nature isn't all bad. Even from Greed can come good. Freedom wins out. Capitalism is like the homunculus Greed? In the end, Capitalism will make it all work out because humans not only desire material wealth, they desire human companionship. Greed has a limit and will seek out balance.

That is not how Lenin was: https://youtu.be/MjwL1mSrPLA

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Well first of all I am not necessarily saying this is precisely what Arakawa was trying to say but I still see a parallel with alchemy & over dependence on technology. Ed compared alchemy to a science after all.

I also don't think alchemy or technology is automatically bad and yes good comes from it. But over dependence on it can be a bad thing.

And no I am not saying that alchemy is the only form of technology the FMA world has. I was looking at a theme not a straight comparison of something from this world and their world.

Another similar story I can think of is the bible story of the Tower of Babel. God made everyone speak a different language when they tried to build a tower to get close to God. This sort of reminds me of the reason Truth took something away from the humans who performed human transmutation (but no I don't think Truth is akin to the Judeo-Christian God).

First off, the “Truth” isn’t actually God, the author even confirmed it by saying that “everyone has their own Truth” the truth is just a reflection of someone, a shadow archetype, so it’s okay to call the Truth an asshole, though that really only applies to Ed’s truth, who represents his own self-hatred, Ed was really just “punishing” himself, the other truths we see are Al’s truth, Father’s truth, and Roy’s truth, it’s a representation of the main message of “don’t equate science aka Alchemy with god” since the truth is a personification of one’s own alchemy, which is why both Ed and Father’s truths claim themselves to be “god” because they both think alchemy is God.

Secondly Alchemy doesn’t represent technology, it represents modern day science and materialism.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

I think FMA was always blissfully apolitical. One of its strongest points, if you ask me.

The only real messages I got from it are: "take responsibility for your own actions, but don't be afraid to ask for help from/rely on your friends and family"; and "sometimes bad things happen to good people, but you can still work through it". I don't think either message is very political, or is going to draw any detractors...

I think it also says don’t be afraid to ask for help from a higher power, as what happened when Scar fought Wrath. Though I don’t think Ed, Al and Izumi should be held responsible for the whole Human Transmutation, I always cringed and was sick and tired of them saying it was a “punishment” or “they deserved it”, they were just in desperate vulnerable states and Hohenheim (father of the year) was there to stop them, or Izumi’s husband to comfort her and make her not do it. Again the Truth is not the “arbiter of morality and punishment”, it’s just a reflection.

Getting back to the politics there are certainly some unfortunate implications when the Briggs arc starts and we are introduced to the biggest bitch in the story, Olivier Armstrong, who seems to push a pro-nationalist and pro-military agenda, not to mention all her social Darwinism and the fact that she gets away with ordering the deaths of many innocent central soldiers that knew nothing of the truth.

All FMA is saying is that Scientism (the worship of Science) and materialism are bad and it spends 108 chapters hammering it into your skull. So alchemy is bullshit. Who'da thunk.

Look at Ed's journey across the series. At the start, he acts all edgy atheist and recites what makes up a human body, as if that's all that matters in making a human. To him, it should be. Alchemy, the First Law of Equivalent Exchange. EVERYTHING is quantifiable with alchemy, everything has a price with alchemy.

When Ed trades his gate, he's figured out this truth, or the "Truth within the Truth". What gives him value isn't his ability to do alchemy, but those around him that he loves. He doesn't have to define his life by his alchemy, that was HIS valuation. When Ed exchanges his Gate for Alphonse he gives up something that means nothing to his value as a person, and gains everything. He's always been just a person, his value does not decrease, but he gains everything. He gave away 0% of his value, and got 100% in return. He BREAKS the First Law.

That's how he beat Truth. There are things alchemy cannot quantify, that break the system. They always broke it. These things are priceless, infinite. By choosing them you gain everything and lose nothing.

Originally Posted by Vicious108

It's not that Hohenheim wasn't physically able to do it, it's that he didn't feel it was right for him to do it, for her lost organs symbolized a deed which she shouldn't forget.

I’m pretty sure she wouldn’t forget it even if she did get them back, please don’t imply it was a “sin” or she “deserved it”.

Originally Posted by Captain_Monotanous

You also reminded me of the christian themes, I'd forgotten to mention that. It did seem to have a strong christian moral to the story, in which, bonus points to Arakawa, she told through a main character that was an Atheist (and obviously didnt demonize lil Edward ).
I'm not the religious sort myself, but I liked FMA because it was sutble with the religious message, "under the hood" as it were...
The only time I found it grated on me was when Mustang didnt finish off Envy or "he would turn to the dark side"

It wasn’t subtle, the antagonists are over the top cartoon villains that are named after the seven deadly sins and the main bad guy has a devil analog (one of the earlier chapters even calls it “the work of the devil”) in fact BH & Manga gets complained a lot on for being over the top anvilicious, subtlety isn’t one of Arakawa’s specialties, just look at how she portrays the fundamentalist priest in the Legend of Arslan.

Originally Posted by orangejuicetang

No, look at it this way. He wasn't trying to absorb Ed and add him into his Philosopher's stone. He was literally trying to take him over like a vessel, creating something similar to Wrath or Greed. Also, there's been several mentions of their 'pride of a homunculus'. They see themselves as an existence greater than humans. The reason that it was his downfall was because that was the sole reason Kimblee decided to interfere. Kimblee distracted him and messed with his mind, but the only reason he did so was because Pride, in Kimblee's opinion, chose survival over pride which would be a hypocrisy considering that he's well, 'pride.'

Except that EVERYTHING about the Homunculi are hypocritical, their power is actually stolen human power, they originated from and were created by a human, and yet this is when Kimblee decides to get butthurt.

Also that scene was an asspull that sets off unfortunate implications, basically saying being a over the top sadist pays off in a positive way, also if being crazy is what prevents you from being completely consumed by the stone, why aren’t there other crazy Xerxes souls that are insane and trying to take over the other Homunculi? This scene just makes Kimblee look like a villain Sue who got off too easy.

Originally Posted by Arabesque

I loved how Greed was so pissed about Bradly gaining the one thing he will never have, satisfaction

That is wrong, he hated it because he looks smug, which I also hate, Arakawa let Wrath off too easy, he should have went out crying like a bitch like Envy and Pride did, it wasn’t cathartic.

[Jmariofan7]

Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi

^To add to that, it's not even certain if that soul was Bradley's original soul or the soul from the philosopher's stone. Bradley himself says so in the discussion you mention.

The single soul within him is clearly Father’s own soul fragment representing his emotions of anger towards humans, after all Ling and Greed were separate souls within the stone, Wrath just stole the body of the original human.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

He's just so badass, and his ability so suited for him, that he's gotten by without ever being killed. Everything since he arrived back in Central after the failed assassination attempt suggests this. He gets multiple injuries, none of them fatal until the end, and never heals any of them, even though he does have some moments where he could have, if he had the capability.

Only because all his opponents were idiots most of the time and never took advantage of his clear weaknesses, his eyesight, Greed never goes full armour in ANY of his fights even when he clearly had an opening to do so, and the ninja grandpa never uses a flash grenade on him.

Originally Posted by Rennir

Yeah but I think its better to have it end. Mangas like bleach and naruto that drag on forever just get boring after a while. Its better to go out with a bang . But I hope that Ed doesn't have to cross the gate and live there for the rest of his life in this version.

They don’t “drag on forever” nor do they “get boring” because they have longer, deeper and more complicated plots than FMA, which is just an insultingly basic battle of “good vs evil” with unbelievable strawman cartoon villains that some don’t even get proper cathartic defeats like Lust, Wrath and Kimblee.

Brotherhood isn't about suffering and catharsis, it's about pseudometaphysical bologna that attempts to appeal to the same crowd that thinks NGE is deep and insightful.

Originally Posted by Grey

I was a bit disappointed about the "just wants friends like them" revelation for Greed. It fits with the way he developed a band as the previous Greed, but it's such a shounen cliche it felt a bit like Greed's character was cheapened. "You don't really want everything in the world, you just want some good friends"--what? I guess the set up and delivery just didn't work for me. [/SPOILER]

Haven’t you noticed that Father still demonstrates all Seven Deadly Sins even after supposedly “removing” them from himself? Because they were actually his emotions towards humans with Greed being his want to make friends.

Originally Posted by Grey

Spoiler:

I guess seeing the Truth doesn't teach you how to use alchemy to sew gloves while blind.

Hundreds of years of experience sitting in his chair. But eh, there could be lots of possible reasons Father didn't use a different tactic. Can't run and concentrate on alchemical defense and keeping the God in; area is too open to escape fire from Briggs, Mustang, etc in time; was waiting for a lull in the attacks to counter-attack but new arrivals like Greed and Mustang stopped him; didn't waste energy on an earth shield because artillery would quickly batter it down; didn't expect to spend so much power so quickly.

Except that he easily could have liquified the ground beneath him to escape into the catacombs. He was also stupid for wasting a ton of his energy for releasing those souls just to eff with Hohenheim and even more energy firing off that massive energy beam.

Heck his biggest stupidity was never keeping tabs on Hohenheim from the start, the BIGGEST threat to his plans.

Originally Posted by Tsuyoshi

Which brings me to my next point. Ed's answer the the Guardian of the Truth made me skip a beat and shed a tear. Ed renouncing alchemy was the ultimate act to understanding that alchemy could not possibly provide all the answers, regardless of how much you learned. The real answers lay in the people around him, the world that's out there, not what was within yourself. It symbolizes just how much can be gained from acknowledging life around you rather than being self-centered and focusing on the world inside of you. That was the mistake Homunculus had made, a mistake Ed recognized he had made.

And yet we also get characters like Olivier Armstrong, a really self-centered character who never gets any punishment.


Actually the biggest thing I would like to say is that Arakawa’s ORIGINAL pitch for FMA was that Roy was the MC and the main antagonist would be Bradley, which at the very least Arakawa should have stuck with Bradley being the main antagonist instead of the generic cartoon blob monster that was Homunculus "some magical creature created with blood that gets knowledge out of his ass and wants to become a god". We didn’t need all that bs.

[Tactics]

Originally Posted by Jmariofan7

Only because all his opponents were idiots most of the time and never took advantage of his clear weaknesses, his eyesight, Greed never goes full armour in ANY of his fights even when he clearly had an opening to do so, and the ninja grandpa never uses a flash grenade on him.

First Greed tried going full armor against him, but Wrath stab all Greed recovery point (red lines in his body) aside of outpacing him so he can't even fully materialized.
Second Greed not committed into that because going full armor is equivalent of blocking Ling Yao's physical prowess, one of reason why he's proud having him as host.

Ling gang only know that they would get better result attacking from blind spot.
Its Briggs who truly notice you need to completely block his view to properly counter Wrath.

Originally Posted by Jmariofan7

Heck his biggest stupidity was never keeping tabs on Hohenheim from the start, the BIGGEST threat to his plans.

Its part of him spared Hohenheim, equivalent trade of being its friend and let it borrow his appearance.
Hohenheim himself never truly committed on stopping the black creature until he have family and genuinely wished for them to have better future; not to mention he also started from the most distant point thanks to his knowledge so Father only aware of his involvement when its late.