2011-03-09, 14:37 | Link #1 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
|
Umineko - Mystery/Literature discussion
This thread is to be used for discussing the aspects of the mystery genre that are heavily used in Umineko no Naku Koro ni.
A few subjects you might want to ramble on about:
As such, this thread does -not- serve as a thread to discuss whether or not Umineko is a proper Mystery Novel, nor discussing the plot or "what really happened" whatsoever (the later should be discussed in the spoiler thread or the appropriate episode thread). [Warning]: As this thread is meant to discuss critical plot portions of the tale, it will probably cover everything that the PC doujin games have unfolded. Therefore, for those who have followed the anime or english translated episodes only, I wholeheartedly discourage you to proceed, unless you are willing to spoil yourself. Please be aware this is not supposed to be a spoiler thread, therefore, please do not start asking about how the ending was done and so forth.
__________________
Last edited by Klashikari; 2011-03-13 at 11:38. |
2011-03-09, 14:37 | Link #2 | ||||||||||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
|
Umineko - Mystery/Literature discussion
Quote:
Quote:
I do wish Witch-Hunt would localize the ellipsis abuse sometimes though. I feel bad for the poor ellipsis. Quote:
Quote:
I was referring to the suspects more so than the characters. For example, Death on the Nile is one of her great stories where the characters are well developed and reading it for the second time is very enjoyable once you understand the novel a bit more. She rarely developed her detectives(save for Tommy & Tuppence) but she generally developed her cast pretty well. Miss Marple probably got the most development out of all her detectives. Poirot didn't because she hated him, which I always found hilarious. Quote:
Christie(very much so during the Marple books, not so much with the Poirot ones) made the victim sympathetic a lot. With Poirot she was more of a fan of the "make the victim a jerk so that the murderer is sympathetic" approach. Strangely, And Then There Were None did make the victims sympathetic while remaining terrible people. Quote:
Queen can be pretty hit and miss sometimes, but oh boy when he hits it, it's one hell of a hit. Quote:
Sometimes when he talked about the meaning behind the truth, it was pretty, it was clever, but to me it felt out of place. His thematics were good but they sometimes got in the way of the story. Quote:
When I referred to the challenge though, I meant the challenge to ask yourself the meaning behind the fairness of the game rather than the actual game. Ever read Carr's essay on the mystery genre? To me, it seems like it's what Ryu based it on. Either that or they are similar by accident. Quote:
I understand his point about motives and I do agree with him, sort of. Buuuuut the way he chose to demonstrate it was terrible. I'll spoiler tag it just in case since this is the translation topic, not the episode 7 one. Spoiler for episode 7:
Quote:
The writing felt like, for the lack of a better expression, a girl on pms. You could hear loud and clear her announce she had changed her mind, but she had done that so many times already and so often too that you weren't sure whether to take her seriously or not when she said that X wasn't important anymore. Quote:
Quote:
Her tactics, shown as despicable but valid, undermined what he had accomplished in the last 4 episodes. Quote:
Quote:
"The Cat Who" series is pretty decent, if cheesy at times. Quote:
Both fantasy and mystery require an absurd amount of thought and world building, and are only rivaled by each other on that aspect. For a fantasy you need to create a believable world, motivations and character interaction. For a mystery, you need one devilish(yet fair) trick up your sleeve, which can be very, very hard at times. Even if you decide to throw some old tricks in a blender like in Umineko, you still have to manage alibis, clue dropping, it's a very complicated scenario. I'd say that the only genre where the blender formula actually works is "things that rip off Twilight." Quote:
But fiiiine we'll drop the off topic. |
||||||||||||||||
2011-03-09, 17:09 | Link #4 |
Senior Member
|
Ellery Queen had his Challenge to the Reader in 9 of the first 10 novels. (They accidentally left it out of _The Siamese Twin Mystery_.) _The Finishing Stroke_ (25th anniversary, 25th book, probably meant as a full-circle conclusion) also has a Challenge.
And I really doubt that Ryu has read JDC. Considering that JDC is known as the master of the locked-room mystery, and is especially known for making mysteries that seem to have magical explanations, I think he'd have some sort of direct reference. Also, I think that too many of the "impossible" events depend on the red text for nonexistence of keys to be convincing. (Kinzo's disappearance and the second twilight, both from Ep. 1, are the only exceptions I can think of offhand.)
__________________
|
2011-03-09, 17:27 | Link #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
|
10 novels total? Ah, I was close. I think Ryu has read JDC. I refuse to believe that someone trying to write a series about "magical impossible murders" didn't read JDC. That would be the same as attempting to pass a history exam without attending any lectures or reading your textbook.
He probably didn't reference him because he was aware of how much JDC overshadows him when it comes down to talent. Not to throw the guy to the sharks or anything, but Umineko and its magical murders come off as him trying too hard to be JDC. They both have the same style(supernatural murders) but JDC was leagues ahead of Ryu in that regard. Kanon's death in episode 2 was also ''impossible'' unless you went with "a secret passage is hidden somewhere!" Not counting that, I think only Kinzo's disappearances count. |
2011-03-09, 17:38 | Link #6 | ||||||||
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
|
Quote:
And by the way, it's a testament to the Witch Hunt team that Ryukishi's style is a topic of discussion in the first place! If we were talking about MangaGamer's Higurashi translation, I think we'd all have to assume that Ryukishi was a near-illiterate bumpkin. Quote:
Quote:
And for my money, Christie is even worse at writing romance than Mr. Ryukishi. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
But, I would actually be surprised if Ryukishi hadn't read Carr. He seems like a very well-read person in general, and a fan of the mystery genre in particular. Quote:
As for Erika, I found her to be pretty hilarious, personally. But eh, different tastes. Quote:
Mystery novelists today have to struggle with the old formula, but also create something which is more than just a game, something which can be called art. It's a difficult task, and rarely pulled off well. Most modern authors prefer to bend the genre into something new. Edit: Forgot to comment on this Spoiler for Episode 7:
Last edited by naikou; 2011-03-09 at 17:50. |
||||||||
2011-03-09, 17:50 | Link #7 |
Senior Member
|
naikou: "Ellery Queen" primarily refers to cousins Frederick Dannay and Manfred B. Lee, but about half the books were ghost-written by others.
Officially, IIRC, all four books about Drury Lane, most of the books about Ellery and/or Richard Queen, and two nonseries books (_Cop Out_ and _The Glass Village_) were by Dannay and Lee. _The Player on the Other Side_, _The Fourth Side of the Triangle_, _And On The Eighth Day_, and _House of Brass_, plus the rest of the nonseries books, were ghost-written by others under the Queen byline.
__________________
|
2011-03-09, 18:12 | Link #8 | ||||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
|
Quote:
...I still hate myself for not figuring that one out. Quote:
Ryu's romance is...too melodramatic for my taste. I like my murders cozy and my explosions to somehow not affect the detectives thank you very much. It's probably just my taste though. They are both pretty bad at romance at times, though I do have a soft spot for Christie's romance. Quote:
Quote:
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...=www.google.ca Quote:
I agree about it being more of a guide for writers than for readers, which is why I felt that his lecture about them felt...pointless. Quote:
Quote:
It is hard for a pure game to go continue living on, but it is doing its best. For example, Edward Hoch's stories are almost impossible to find nowadays, and he is one of the best contemporary mystery writers. I wish his work was more accessible, and with his somewhat recent death they'll just become harder to find. Quote:
Spoiler:
|
||||||||
2011-03-09, 18:43 | Link #9 | |||
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
|
Good to know, thanks for the info about Queen rogerpepitone and Sherringford. I'll have to remember that when picking out my next Queen novel.
And much obliged for the link to Carr's essay, I'll check it out tonight. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Spoiler for Episode 7:
|
|||
2011-03-09, 19:01 | Link #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2010
|
Erika being a good Vance impression? Nah, she's far too active. She tries too hard to solve everything. Vance's only reason for getting involved with his cases is that he likes to play around with Markham, but he's way too lazy to go sealing windows and everything.
Will is a better Vance, since Spoiler for Benson Murder Case:
Spoiler for episode 7:
|
2011-03-09, 19:13 | Link #11 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
|
||
2011-03-09, 20:07 | Link #12 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
Go to the microfilm section of your local library and pick a random back issue of EQMM. Or go to Crippen & Landru. As for your comments about episode 7: Spoiler:
By the way, anybody wonder whether Ryu knew that Knox had converted to Catholocism from Anglicanism, or was that coincidental Fridge Brilliance? (He presumably knew that Knox was Catholic, given that Dlanor is part of the Inquisition.)
__________________
|
|
2011-03-09, 20:43 | Link #13 | ||
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
|
Quote:
Then again, quantum mechanics is not my area of expertise, so maybe I'm the only one who's confused. Quote:
|
||
2011-03-09, 20:59 | Link #15 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Leading by example and taking the translation thread discussion here. Fits under "plot devices".
Quote:
True, but he explained it backwards with the multiple worlds interpretation first, and his readers didn't understand that. Hence the criticism. It was badly executed.
__________________
|
|
2011-03-09, 21:11 | Link #16 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sea of Fragments
|
Quote:
There are lots of different ways to interpret quantum mechanics, and some of those interpretations have weird consequences. Schrodinger's Cat is just a way of illustrating each interpretation's version of weird consequences. Quote:
__________________
|
||
2011-03-09, 22:02 | Link #17 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
|
Quote:
He's not obligated to explain all of the interpretations and consequences, and I don't want him to. But It's not hard to explain what the analogy illustrates accurately at all. Just say "by the way this analogy doesn't actually say all these truths exist at the same time in the same catbox just that you don't know which one is on the inside when it's opened." If he can explain how alchemy progressed into science in the same episode then its not that hard to explain one little detail about the analogy that clarifies what he's getting at.
__________________
Last edited by Judoh; 2011-03-09 at 22:15. |
|
2011-03-09, 23:12 | Link #18 | |
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
|
Quote:
The problem is that I don't understand why he would choose to use a metaphor from quantum mechanics in the first place. Is he using "multiple worlds theory" as a metaphor? If so, why mention the cat box, but not multiple worlds theory? Or is he simply borrowing a metaphor from quantum mechanics, and applying it to Umineko? In that case, why not just use a similar but different metaphor, to avoid the confusing quantum mechanics connotations? (oh wait he did - Braun tubes... and then he brought the cat box in, why exactly?) Though, I'm no expert in quantum mechanics, so maybe it's just me who's confused. I got the point in the end. I just think it could have been explained more effectively. A flawed, but not fatally flawed metaphor. |
|
2011-03-09, 23:54 | Link #19 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2011
|
Quote:
Christie was a master of brevity. That's the difference between a plodding, overlong writer like Robert Jordan and someone like Patrick Rothfuss (Shortest 1000 page book I've ever read). Christie was able to fit more psychological characterization into a 200-page novel than Ryuukishi was able to over the course of four episodes. To put it bluntly, And Then There Were None was a masterwork of character. In less than 200 pages a reader could understand the motivations of each individual character, their mindset, and justifying their actions even after their own demise. And with as much clarity as most of the oversized cast of Umineko over 4 novels. Most of the fantasy cast is tacked on, or just there to serve as plot devices. We get no real insight into their states of mind, and even some of the core cast members, such as Hideyoshi, and most of the servants, get no character development over the course of the entire series. Rather than develop characters, Ryuukishi just took our focus off of them by throwing new shinies to distract us from how shallow they were. In that regard, you could say that Umineko has inferior characterization to even Higurashi. Due to it's more limited cast, Ryuukishi spent each episode showing us the inner workings of most of the relevant cast members state of mind. Saying that Dame Christie can't do characterization is a stunningly ignorant statement. |
|
2011-03-10, 00:14 | Link #20 | ||
Slashy Slashy!
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: USA
Age: 34
|
Quote:
You have a point about Ryukishi leaving many members of his cast undeveloped (Hideyoshi is a good example), but I would say that most of them are very well developed, which is impressive considering how many there are. Part of the problem with Christie is that she often sacrifices character development for the sake of a plot twist or two. Frequently, there will be a last-minute villain who you never saw coming... because being a villain goes completely against the character that had been developed so far. Think the defendant (whatever his name was) in "Witness for the Prosecution", or the entire supporting cast of "Murder on the Orient Express". Contrast this with EP7: Spoiler:
I have no problem with Christie fans, but her novels do not work for me. I enjoyed them back when I read them in junior high, but now, looking back on them... ehhhh. Quote:
|
||
|
|