[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Unless the book of one truth and Eva's diary are two separate things the book of one truth should cointain THE TRUTH.

The book of one truth does not include anything about Battler's survival, therefore the content is unreliable and NOT the truth.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The book of one truth does not include anything about Battler's survival, therefore the content is unreliable and NOT the truth.

Likely more than unreliable is incomplete.
Eva could only write what she saw or was told. Even if she wrote it truthfully and objectively in a mere list of facts people might have lied to her, facts could have been misleading and it's unlikely she witnessed everything unless the culprit was in a room with everyone and began shooting or she followed him/her around without doing nothing/managing to do something to stop him/her.

Let's pretend we've Erika's narration of the events of EP 5 in an inpartial manner.
She was told people were dead and has no reason to doubt it.
At the same time Natsuhi's behaviour is extremely suspicious, she has no alibi and, all considered, even when Natsuhi confessed about the phone call she didn't make herself any more reliable from an objective point of view (she couldn't prove she received the phonecalls and she just admitted in her past she committed a murder).

If we get only Erika's perspective, even if she says the truth about what she witnessed we would think Natsuhi is the culprit.

I think the diary being THE TRUTH played on this fact, the diary could be truthful while at the same time not containing all the truth we need to reach the right conclusion.

[GreyZone]

ahh ok. I misunderstood you. I thought you mean "The Truth" ment everything that happened in Rokkenjima these 2 days. Well good that is cleared up now.

[RandomAvatarFan]

hmm...when you put it that way, it seems the diary is nothing more than another message bottle/fragment, which is probably the best way to think about it. Or it's a catbox that writes about what's inside another catbox.

I was thinking at first that maybe it might be similar to Ep3, since we have Eva feeling guilty about the events for one reason or another, so my first thought was maybe it would tell us the same things as EP3. But in EP8, we learn more about what EVA was supposed to represent - nothing more than a representation of Eva Culprit Theory. I realized that Eva went through a lot to keep the truth from Ange. Everything that she did. I understand why people would doubt the validity of the things written in the diary, because well, it's Eva's diary. I really do get it, but keeping EVA in mind from EP8, it might be better to assume that what is written in the diary is as accurate as the truth reached by Hachijou. Senza amore...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

hmm...when you put it that way, it seems the diary is nothing more than another message bottle/fragment, which is probably the best way to think about it. Or it's a catbox that writes about what's inside another catbox.

No, because the message bottles are made up stories while the diary tells the REAL story... at least as far as Eva knew/witnessed/was told about.
So if in the diary it's written that let's say 'Eva saw George lying on the ground apparently dead' that's truly what Eva witnessed (though it can be up to debate if George was really dead or only looked like that) while whatever the message bottles say might have been entirely made up or match the reality merely due to coincidence.

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

I was thinking at first that maybe it might be similar to Ep3, since we have Eva feeling guilty about the events for one reason or another, so my first thought was maybe it would tell us the same things as EP3. But in EP8, we learn more about what EVA was supposed to represent - nothing more than a representation of Eva Culprit Theory.

Well, Ep 3 might contain some elements of truth (for example I always had the feeling someone might have tried to shoot Battler) but most of it is likely a forgery based on some true facts (Eva surviving and owning Kinzo's ring) and possibly fragments of Battler/Toya's memories.

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

I realized that Eva went through a lot to keep the truth from Ange. Everything that she did. I understand why people would doubt the validity of the things written in the diary, because well, it's Eva's diary. I really do get it, but keeping EVA in mind from EP8, it might be better to assume that what is written in the diary is as accurate as the truth reached by Hachijou. Senza amore...

I don't really think it's fair to define a factual, objective retelling of what she saw happening (if that's what is written in Eva's diary) as loveless.
A factual retelling is just facts.
It would be different if she had manipulated her storytelling to make someone look bad or good, sort of like Erika manipulated facts in EP 5 to make Natsuhi look as the culprit but this would mean the diary would offer also an interpretation of the events becoming a subjective truth.

To make things more clear:

1 ) I saw Kyrie shooting in George's direction and George falling, a gaping wound on his chest then moving closer to him and checking his condition.

2 ) I saw Kyrie shooting at George, with the clear intent to murder him for no good reason at all and succeding at hitting him then moving to check if she had killed him with just one bullet or needed to shoot him a second time to finish the job.

3 ) I saw Kirye shooting in George's direction for some reason, likely thinking there was someone dangerous behind him. Sadly, either she missed and hit George instead, or someone else at the same time shoot at George with a gun with a silencer because I saw George falling. Kyrie, pain stricken for what had happened, hurried to check on his conditions, ready to give him some help.

In the first case we've only what Eva witnessed without any comment about Kyrie's possible intentions. In the second and third case we have an interpretation that's trying to pin Kyrie as evil or as a good person even if the facts are the same as in the first example.
I like to think that the diary, for being defined as the truth, has the facts described as in the first example however what Eva witnessed is likely going to lead the reader toward an interpretation like the one in the second example than like the one in the third example.

[alarmadadna hadi]

No, because the message bottles are made up stories while the diary tells the REAL story... at least as far as Eva knew/witnessed/was told about.
So if in the diary it's written that let's say 'Eva saw George lying on the ground apparently dead' that's truly what Eva witnessed (though it can be up to debate if George was really dead or only looked like that) while whatever the message bottles say might have been entirely made up or match the reality merely due to coincidence.

Unless Eva felt tempted to write a "forgery"-like diary framing someone else so that the the attention directed at her and the controversy would cease, at the cost of marring someone elses memory. It would be arranged to have been "leaked" to a high profile and respected personality (eg ikuko) so that a "revelation" is staged with all proper sensationalism. After all, she was seen as a gold digging liar by the public, a direct confession would not feel as authentic as a leaked secret, and she wont be judged as someone trying to escape blame, but a selfless person taking the blame of others (which might actually be the case).

Only that, in the end, as she neared death, she decided against it. That would also explain why she described it as nonesense or whatever to ange.

Just a thought.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by alarmadadna hadi

Unless Eva felt tempted to write a "forgery"-like diary framing someone else so that the the attention directed at her and the controversy would cease, at the cost of marring someone elses memory. It would be arranged to have been "leaked" to a high profile and respected personality (eg ikuko) so that a "revelation" is staged with all proper sensationalism. After all, she was seen as a gold digging liar by the public, a direct confession would not feel as authentic as a leaked secret, and she wont be judged as someone trying to escape blame, but a selfless person taking the blame of others (which might actually be the case).

Only that, in the end, as she neared death, she decided against it. That would also explain why she described it as nonesense or whatever to ange.

Just a thought.

This would mean though that the diary doesn't contain the truth but is a forgery written by Eva herself. As Eva's diary and the book of truth are supposed to be the same and said book had been guaranted in red to contain the truth I would find it a pretty bad narrative trick if we were to be said that it was merely another forgery.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by alarmadadna hadi

Only that, in the end, as she neared death, she decided against it. That would also explain why she described it as nonesense or whatever to ange.

I think the reason why she described it as non-sense is because the content was very subjective.

So in her diary she may have written "Kyrie murdered my beloved Hideyoshi heartlessly!" while in reality she only saw Kyrie with a winchester over Hideyoshi's corpse (or a living Hideoyoshi that is participating in the murder mystery game) and made wrong conclusions because of that...
That would be reason enough for Piece!Eva to view it as non-sense and trying to prevent Ange from reading it, because it would hurt her although it was not even true...

[RandomAvatarFan]

It's not "just another forgery" because it is what the only survivor of the Rokkenjima incident saw.
I still like thinking it as another message bottle, a Fragment that will deny all others. It's the Fragment of truth. And the contents of the diary will fill in the blanks of what we know and vice versa. It's still a puzzle piece, but the final puzzle piece, even taking into account what jjblue says about what details may be embellished and what details may be left out. There's enough clues with the fragments we do have to reason out what had happened that day anyway, but this would be the answer key that gives the narrative to fill the holes in our deductions, and our current understanding of the events should be able to smooth over the rough parts and the gaps in the book of one truth.
If the contents of the diary existed.

[GreyZone]

Let's just say that a big part of the diary is red truth. But some things like wrong assumptions are not.

[Remon]

Ange read the book in EP 8. The entire episode seems to portray her inner conflict. To read or not to read. But she read it in the end after all. And she didn't read about Battler surviving .

But regarding the contents of the diary. I'm pretty sure it does contain the truth.
Ushiromiya Eva's diary, the Book of the Single Truth, has written within it the truth of Rokkenjima during October 4th and 5th, 1986.
During 4th and 5th is the key here.

EDIT HERP DERP
I got my facts wrong here. In the Epilogue Ange didn't read the diary after all. What the hell?
Then I guess EP 8 just symbolizes her desire to read it when Ikuko was going to make the contents of the diary public.

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Remon

Ange read the book in EP 8. The entire episode seems to portray her inner conflict. To read or not to read. But she read it in the end after all. And she didn't read about Battler surviving .

But regarding the contents of the diary. I'm pretty sure it does contain the truth.
Ushiromiya Eva's diary, the Book of the Single Truth, has written within it the truth of Rokkenjima during October 4th and 5th, 1986.
During 4th and 5th is the key here.

EDIT HERP DERP
I got my facts wrong here. In the Epilogue Ange didn't read the diary after all. What the hell?
Then I guess EP 8 just symbolizes her desire to read it when Ikuko was going to make the contents of the diary public.

Actually we don't know about it.
Ange might have read the diary before reaching the fence.

Note that in the meta world she read the diary than jumps off a balcony and the scene switches to her jumping off a fence.

So she could have read it before going to the fence and having read the diary might be the exact reason why she went to the fence and considered jumping down.
Then, in the magic epilogue she found her own way to deal with what she read and went on living.
Someone else found the diary she left in the hospital and later the diary ended up in Hachijo Toya's hands. We know what happened afterward.

[NasakenaiMono]

Greetings fellow anime, manga and game fans . I am NasakenaiMono. I am doing a research on Umineko no Naku Koro ni for a class in the University and I was wondering whether someone here who has played the games or seen the anime, would be willing to take a questionnaire I made for this particular class.

Since this course is part of my study of Japanese in University, the questionnaire is in Japanese. Although it is in Japanese everyone is allowed to take part. You can use a dictionary if you would like to.

Those who are interested in taking part in this research are more than welcome to do so. It would be a great honour if someone took part in this. I would like to thank you in advance and thank everyone from the bottom of my heart for reading this topic whether they take part or not. Thank you very much.

Here is the link to the questionnaire: http://www.efeel.to/survey/umineko/

NasakenaiMono

[AuraTwilight]

Can someone post a translation of that survey?

[Prototype909]

Originally Posted by Remon

But regarding the contents of the diary. I'm pretty sure it does contain the truth.
Ushiromiya Eva's diary, the Book of the Single Truth, has written within it the truth of Rokkenjima during October 4th and 5th, 1986.
During 4th and 5th is the key here.

I'm probably beating a dead horse at this point but I felt obliged to throw my thoughts into the pot

I don't think anyone is disputing whether or not "the truth" is contained in Eva's diary, but rather how "absolute" is that truth?

No matter what was written in Eva's diary (Which we will in all likelihood never get to read), we have no way of knowing how accurate it is.

So when we as the readers see

Ushiromiya Eva's diary, the Book of the Single Truth, has written within it the truth of Rokkenjima during October 4th and 5th, 1986.


We're inclined to think - "This is the absolute answer to everything"

But in reality it, as many people have stated (In a much more succinct manner than myself) it could just be - "Eva saw "X" kill "Y" and misunderstood the situation and labeled "X" as the culprit, even though it was self-defense."

So while it's true, that might technically be "The truth" as it's still a first hand account of what went on during October 4th and 5th, 1986, that would still be tainted by Eva's own biases and gaps of observation.

This seems more reasonable unless you want to believe Eva just watched everyone be brutally murdered one after the other from beginning to end, and only decided to save anyone once she was the only one left.

Most of Umineko in general seemed to be about taking a dump on the concept of an absolute truth anyways, I don't see why Eva's diary would be exempt here (You know other than the fact that it would give us, at the very least a more accurate conception of what happened compared to any of the Game boards). Even then, it's like that Eva's truth would still be tainted by Eva's "love" or lack thereof

It sort've ties back in with Episode 4's quote of "So it's pointless to investigate anymore, correct? Because................the truth inside of you is already decided." As well as multiple quotes across the series about humans being unable to use Red Truth, or being incapable of reaching a 100% certainty about much of anything.

[GreyZone]

The book of one truth is not the "absolute answer", as some things like the identity of Ikuko would be outside of Eva's possible knowledge of the incident.

HOWEVER it could at least gives us the last puzzle-pieces necassary to put together the truth of Rokkenjima PRIME. Did Battler in fact remember the promise? Was there actually any killing aside from the deaths by the "accident"? If yes, were they just caused by the paranoia of the murder mystery game or did someone intentionally started killing people?

You cannot solve a puzzle without the actual puzzle-parts...

Aside from this, the gameboard was already solved long ago (at least the murders). But we still have no chance in solving prime or understanding completly what the Meta-world is, as long as there are as many possible interpretations as they exist right now...

[RandomAvatarFan]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

But we still have no chance in solving prime or understanding completly what the Meta-world is, as long as there are as many possible interpretations as they exist right now...

I'm not sure if that's completely true.
Beatrice made this game solvable.
If we're told that there's only "one single truth" then that truth must somehow be hidden within the game. I'm certain that the truth of Prime can be found if look closer.

[AuraTwilight]

Beatrice's game isn't Rokkenjima Prime. It was in fact designed NOT to be.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by RandomAvatarFan

I'm not sure if that's completely true.
Beatrice made this game solvable.
If we're told that there's only "one single truth" then that truth must somehow be hidden within the game. I'm certain that the truth of Prime can be found if look closer.

Yes, as AuraTwilight said that red truth was not about Prime but about the gameboards.

and...

Originally Posted by GreyZone

[...]the gameboard was already solved long ago (at least the murders). But we still have no chance in solving prime or understanding completly what the Meta-world is, as long as there are as many possible interpretations as they exist right now...

So it is this. Even if we theoraticly could find the truth, we have no way to confirm it, and maybe we interpret some things not the same as Ryukishi does, as we are not him. (I wish we could attack him with Blue stakes now...)

But i am still bothered, that both Will and Battler "found the truth", but only Battler got sorcerer status and also, unlike Will, understands more than just the gameboard. As I already wrote in an earlier post, I think that the truth they reached about the gameboard - and about 'Yasu' - are different. But if we assume that Battler didn't have more knowledge at that point than Will had, what is the reason they reached different conclusions? Was it Will's lack of EP5 knowledge? I think he said he found the truth after looking through the first 4 games, but he did not look into the next games... or maybe he just missed all the meta-scenes?

[Toku]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

But i am still bothered, that both Will and Battler "found the truth", but only Battler got sorcerer status and also, unlike Will, understands more than just the gameboard. As I already wrote in an earlier post, I think that the truth they reached about the gameboard - and about 'Yasu' - are different. But if we assume that Battler didn't have more knowledge at that point than Will had, what is the reason they reached different conclusions? Was it Will's lack of EP5 knowledge? I think he said he found the truth after looking through the first 4 games, but he did not look into the next games... or maybe he just missed all the meta-scenes?

Will did "skim" (those are his words, take them for what you will) the first 6 games.

Also, he displayed knowledge from the 5th game when he later told Clair that Battler did eventually reach the truth, and was simply too late.