Sword Art Online - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[Esebian]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

I don't think it's impossible, but I sure as hell don't think we be doing it inside virtual worlds solely with our minds in the next decade or so. I'd be willing to believe this SAO/ALO's realism a lot more if this show was set in like, the 2200's or something and the real world in the show actually looked like a world with much more advanced futuristic technology.

Also the examples you give are still immersed in game logic. They don't act exactly the same way as reality thanks to virtual limitations. Not to mention neither of them are MMO's.



No it doesn't, but there's other things especially in the ALO arc that CAN be considered poor writing.



Well then answer me this, what is so good about a game having realism? Does it make it more fun to play? Does it make it more engaging? Is that really worth investing in when the game can could be equally as fun and engaging even with a simpler visual style or physics engine?

I don't understand why realism is considered so important in a game, but that's just me.



I mean it's unfair more-or-less in a PvP way. Against AI monsters I suppose it's fine though.


It's looking like nobody's going to understand my point of view at this rate.

Well ok, that is a pretty good question.
Hmm, you are certainly right that a game doesn't have to be realistic to be good, but people tend to feel more comforted when something happens how they think it should do, imo.

So sth around the lines if I throw up a stone it will come down to earth eventually and not fly out of the atmosphere

But in the end if realism is an important point or not always depends on the game genre; especially shooter and ofc simulations are getting more and more realistic, but with breaking armors and weapons, limited sprinting time and velocity even RPGs are getting more and more realistic.

Maybe people get immersed better into games if they are more realistic? At least for me that is like that. It is simply unrealistic if I wear a heavy armour and then walk as fast as somebody who has a light one...and in the end especially for RPGs the immersion is the greatest factor for the fun in the game (for me at least)

[Klashikari]

I surely didn't have much hope due to the setup of ALO arc and how characters like Sugou were presented so far, but this episode went with the "villain EVIL character" with so many unbelievable beyond parody points that it stopped to be funny altogether.
Surely, the author needed "reasons" for such a "final boss" to be defeated, but Kawahara simply cornered himself with the setup, and had to resort to put Sugou in such role to create false tension and impression of "fighting an overwhelming obstacle", with flaws and hardly foreshadowed points to solve the whole mess.

And whereas the conclusion for SAO arc could be polished a little bit, ALO was absolutely awful imho in that regard: so basically we have a hidden "full administrator" account that was left in the ALO main frame without Sugou's knowing (despite he surely went to great lengths to have full control "in order to be (ALO) World's God), and could be accessed like that?

ALO being a copy of SAO doesn't explain everything, far from it: there is no way ALO would be designed without making a complete overhaul in term of accounts and main frame for the game itself, and since it was already setup 1 year before SAO was terminated, I don't see how it is remotely possible to have Kayaba's "consciousness" being present in ALO despite he surely made a program of himself the moment he dismantled SAO.
It just makes Kayaba's presence in ALO absolutely non sensical, even moreso his ability to support Kazuto.

It is... I dunno if I should really qualify this as a genuine deus ex machina (which is quite close to one, considering how Kayaba relevancy to this arc was basically close to null), but having such a convenient plot device to fix such chaotic situation left quite a lot to be desired.

In the end, surely Kawahara didn't have much thought for the other part of ALO: putting aside my gripe for the part involving Suguha, Sugou's involvement is just infuriating: besides the obviously exaggerated villain aspects used to have a "badly written character that sure will be hated by the audience", he was designed to be a pseudo last boss that just couldn't have a clue, leaving a false sense of satisfaction when he receives his just deserts.
I guess I should stop right there, but the actual lead up to that conclusion and the conclusion itself are extremely poor.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I surely didn't have much hope due to the setup of ALO arc and how characters like Sugou were presented so far, but this episode went with the "villain EVIL character" with so many unbelievable beyond parody points that it stopped to be funny altogether.
Surely, the author needed "reasons" for such a "final boss" to be defeated, but Kawahara simply cornered himself with the setup, and had to resort to put Sugou in such role to create false tension and impression of "fighting an overwhelming obstacle", with flaws and hardly foreshadowed points to solve the whole mess.

And whereas the conclusion for SAO arc could be polished a little bit, ALO was absolutely awful imho in that regard: so basically we have a hidden "full administrator" account that was left in the ALO main frame without Sugou's knowing (despite he surely went to great lengths to have full control "in order to be (ALO) World's God), and could be accessed like that?

ALO being a copy of SAO doesn't explain everything, far from it: there is no way ALO would be designed without making a complete overhaul in term of accounts and main frame for the game itself, and since it was already setup 1 year before SAO was terminated, I don't see how it is remotely possible to have Kayaba's "consciousness" being present in ALO despite he surely made a program of himself the moment he dismantled SAO.

Kayaba was such a genius, a lot of the core programs used to make virtual worlds are still black boxes. And he left himself a backdoor.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It just makes Kayaba's presence in ALO absolutely non sensical, even moreso his ability to support Kazuto.

I think it is deliberately non-sensical (at least from what we're supposed to be able to devise), and the show basically admitted as much with Kirito's comment in that scene. I think it literally is Kayaba as a sort of manifestation of the "god" of this world, seeing how corrupt his "disciple" had become and stepping in to restore order to chaos. His passing on The Seed further supports this sort of "god-like" allusion, and his passing on that power to Kazuto ("for you to use as you see fit") plays into that as well.

So while I'm sure that it would be possible to come up with some sort of rationale how it could have been technically possible (i.e. he and his Heathcliff persona were actually residing inside Kazuto's NerveGear waiting to be activated if needed, and he did that at the moment of his disappearance from SAO? Could be... but not supported by the text...), but I don't think it's intended as fundamentally logical. It's a lot more about symbolism. It literally is "deus ex machina" (the god of the machine), except for the fact this particular god was already known to us and known to be the creator of this world and this whole thing is a call-back to a previous plot point.

(Perhaps someone could argue, in a twisted way, that the whole point of this story arc was a moral about realizing one's powerlessness without "god"? Not sure if I totally agree, but I'd read that essay...)

[xDrac]

So does anyone else hope that The Seed is hinting at another season?
*hopeful*

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

(Perhaps someone could argue, in a twisted way, that the whole point of this story arc was a moral about realizing one's powerlessness without "god"? Not sure if I totally agree, but I'd read that essay...)

That message would be undercut by the fact that here, "God" is a mortal who chose to become a god.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by xDrac

So does anyone else hope that The Seed is hinting at another season?
*hopeful*

Well, we do know that the source material (the novels) continues beyond the end of this arc, so if they do want to make a second season, they certainly could do so. Whether they will or not... I'd guess they will, but only time will tell.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

That message would be undercut by the fact that here, "God" is a mortal who chose to become a god.

But how do we know that's different from "God", actually? Are we just living in someone else's virtual reality? And what makes Sugou as "false god"? You could get into all sorts of mind-bending arguments about this.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

but I don't think it's intended as fundamentally logical. It's a lot more about symbolism.

Even in that case there's a problem of execution. The story fails at consistency. That is, if you want to use that sort of symbolic magical realism you have to make it that way from the start (think Pinguindrum or Utena). But if your setting is seemingly logical and then at the end you play your "magic" card, even if it's for the sake of delivering a symbolic message, you're screwing up big time.

You either play by the rules or you don't, but you have to be consistent and stick to your choice.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

You either play by the rules or you don't, but you have to be consistent and stick to your choice.

I think to go off of this, it's the fact that it cheapens the storytelling. There cannot be any sense of tension if the author is just going to magically wave away the problems with some non foreshadowed idea.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think to go off of this, it's the fact that it cheapens the storytelling. There cannot be any sense of tension if the author is just going to magically wave away the problems with some non foreshadowed idea.

I can't totally disagree with you (and wasn't really trying to disagree with this in my other post either)... but at the same time, I can't really say that it's totally "non-foreshadowed" either. It is a callback to elements that were used previously and expands on previous themes.

I agree that calling on this element now, "in the time of Kazuto's greatest need", feels rather cheap. But it wasn't totally random or "out of nowhere" either. That doesn't necessarily make you feel better about it.

[Tsukou]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Well then answer me this, what is so good about a game having realism? Does it make it more fun to play? Does it make it more engaging? Is that really worth investing in when the game can could be equally as fun and engaging even with a simpler visual style or physics engine?

I don't understand why realism is considered so important in a game, but that's just me.

Honestly, this is probably one of the silliest things I've ever read in a while. You're asking why people enjoy games being more realistic. And yet many of todays games, in comparison with past games all try to make games more realistic. To create atmospheres that are more believable.

All I can think is that your definition of realism is extremely limited. Like in any series, I think most can agree, we find our sympathy towards more believable characters. We can empathize with choices they make throughout a show, and feel like they are real people. That is a very important part to making a show or movie, or any media really, engaging. This is just one aspect of realism. Whether or not the entire premise is realistic or not is not the point. The point is whether or not the people within the premise act realistically or not to their separate situations.

Another side of this is to say, do we enjoy nonsensical plot devices? Or do we enjoy plot devices that have some basis for their invention? I could take something simple, like from a Gundam series, and ask if you think beam weapons are realistic or not. But then we take that question and fit it in the context of the show, where they do explain exactly how the beam weapons work, and then ask that same question, of whether or not it's realistic. They try to make it realistic within the show, and not based on our own reality. And I enjoy the fact that they try to justify their own designs, through realistic theories, which adds to realism. Just because the universe itself is unrealistic does not mean the parts to it aren't.

The fact of the matter is, since basically forever, people have been trying to make all forms of media more realistic. In countless movies they try to create eye-popping realistic explosions. I mean take a look at 3-d at the moment, the entire premise of 3d is immersion into reality. And games continue to try to employ better physics, trying to create real worlds. And I'm not just talking about games like battlefield/cod, who's main selling point is realism by the way, but I'll take an example like Dead Space, which for those who haven't played it, the premise is you're in space figuring out what went wrong in a spaceship. In Dead Space, the premise is unrealistic, but the immersion is extremely real. It's a game that make you actually think you're in space, even the sound when you go into a zero-g environment turns completely off, and all you hear is your own breathing. Atmospherically it's amazing, and realistic. Is the game aiming to be more realistic a bad thing? Hell no, it adds depth.

I know I went on for quite a bit, but simply put. For you to ask why realism is important in today's media, is like asking, why do we try to build better technology. It seems so fundamental as natural progress, to make everything more realistic. But like I said, I think it's a definition problem, and you have to expand your definition of what realism exactly is. Realism doesn't just mean looking like real life, but is more about acting like it's real life in it's given context.

[creaothceann]

Kirito, stop torturing your imouto!

[NaweG]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

But how do we know that's different from "God", actually? Are we just living in someone else's virtual reality? And what makes Sugou as "false god"? You could get into all sorts of mind-bending arguments about this.

I presume you are referring to recent work that indicates that the fact that Cosmic Rays have certain energies, and never exceed a certain energy proves that we are, in fact, in a Universe simulation? Which bolsters nicely the folks who have argued for some time that the fact there are elemental quanta that can only be present in certain states and amounts foreshadows the same.

Of course as with discussions of the "holographic" universe the question becomes whether what we think we mean by this is what it actually means. Still, if we are in a virtual reality of sorts, and arguing about how realistic a virtual reality can be...

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I agree that calling on this element now, "in the time of Kazuto's greatest need", feels rather cheap. But it wasn't totally random or "out of nowhere" either. That doesn't necessarily make you feel better about it.

The problem isn't only the timing (as in Kazuto in a pinch), but also the nature of such help.
Surely, there was basically no foreshadowing that Kayaba would be in ALO at all. The guy was basically unaccounted for, with a very high implication he died. There wasn't really any indication he was trying to put himself in his game, especially he didn't display any regrets or longing for "living the dream": he stood there, more or less content with his life work.

Then, having his AI, but ALSO his account being accessible, which had the very access to the core of ALO, a modified copy of SAO that was existing 1 year before Kayaba actually put his own AI copy plan in execution make the whole thing plainly lampshaded instead of foreshadowed.

Really, the only "possibly" foreshadowing part was the mere mention of ALO being a copy of SAO. Past that, Kayaba and his account being there are just... not hinted. Really, expecting Kayaba to save the day there would be a random theory than really established from facts and assumptions, but that's me I guess.

I would have had far less issues if Kazuto was assisted by Kayaba the very moment he was in ALO in a subtle way (like mysterious messages, hints, items appearing that help Kazuto etc). But here? nothing, absolutely nothing but a bystanding god that was watching a chess match between kazuto with a single pawn against an army of queen from Sugou, then Kayaba table flipping the chessboard to forcefully put Sugou's king into a "divine checkmate".

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Sorry, maybe you are just trolling.
Of course I watched it and it was beyond stupid, just like the last episodes...
Sorry that I'm not easily pleased with nonsense. Maybe i should turn off my brain to like this show more.


From my point of view, everything in this show has not much substance, from the story, main characters and villains.

While I'm not faulting you for disliking this. I would like to point out that commenting stuff like "easily pleased with nonsense" or "turn off your brain to like this", sounds very condescending towards people who honestly do like it. Almost as if it's criminal or retarded to "even like this garbage".


Back on topic. I found Sugou to be an amusing villain. I will acknowledge that he's one-dimensional and shallow, but that doesn't necessarily have to be a bad thing. At the very least he has been consistent in his behavior.

I'm less bothered by Kayaba being there. I mean, data was transferred from SAO after all.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Surely, there was basically no foreshadowing that Kayaba would be in ALO at all. The guy was basically unaccounted for, with a very high implication he died. There wasn't really any indication he was trying to put himself in his game, especially he didn't display any regrets or longing for "living the dream": he stood there, more or less content with his life work.

I actually didn't assume that he died there, for what it's worth. I thought it was too suspicious a disappearance, despite him being satisfied with his life's work. If they had mentioned previously that he was found dead, I would have accepted it... but I always figured he'd show up again somehow. So to me, at least, I assumed that he lived. After all, both Kazuto and Asuna lived.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Then, having his AI, but ALSO his account being accessible, which had the very access to the core of ALO, a modified copy of SAO that was existing 1 year before Kayaba actually put his own AI copy plan in execution make the whole thing plainly lampshaded instead of foreshadowed.

Well, I'm not sure how strongly this holds up, but let's consider what happened to Yui. She was an AI residing inside of Kazuto's NerveGear, and her "account" was recognized and given a certain amount of access privileges when she entered ALO. So, if we assume that Heathcliff/Kayaba was similarly residing in Kazuto's NerveGear, the system could recognize him for who he is and give him the privileges he deserves (because ALO is a copy of SAO after all). The fact that Yui, an object, could be given some limited privilege sets a precedence for this.

Like I said before, I realize that's totally para-text, so just a theory. Perhaps I've forgotten something that causes it to not hold up.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Really, the only "possibly" foreshadowing part was the mere mention of ALO being a copy of SAO. Past that, Kayaba and his account being there are just... not hinted. Really, expecting Kayaba to save the day there would be a random theory than really established from facts and assumptions, but that's me I guess.

It surely is a plot twist, but it was apparent there had to be one from the nature of the "hopeless" situation. (Why create such a hopeless situation in the first place if there's no good way out... well, yeah.)

I suppose you could also form an even crazier theory -- that really what happened is that Kazuto exceeded the limits of the programming again, as he did in SAO, and he only "imagined" Kayaba being there as a sort of delusion. The World Seed may have been already in his possession the whole time unknown. (To go back to my previous point, I guess Kayaba could have resided in this Seed that Kirito already had?)

I totally understand that there is no coherent explanation, so we're left to resort to theories, and that isn't satisfying from a narrative point of view. But I do like theorizing anyway.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I would have had far less issues if Kazuto was assisted by Kayaba the very moment he was in ALO in a subtle way (like mysterious messages, hints, items appearing that help Kazuto etc). But here? nothing, absolutely nothing but a bystanding god that was watching a chess match between kazuto with a single pawn against an army of queen from Sugou, then Kayaba table flipping the chessboard to forcefully put Sugou's king into a "divine checkmate".

Won't disagree with you here. I suppose you can interpret some of the odd things that did happen as the "hand of god", but if that's really what they were going for, they could have made that a bit more clear.

Originally Posted by NaweG

Of course as with discussions of the "holographic" universe the question becomes whether what we think we mean by this is what it actually means. Still, if we are in a virtual reality of sorts, and arguing about how realistic a virtual reality can be...

We need to go deeper?


(Honestly, the thing I appreciate most about this show is the fact that we actually can have these sorts of conversations. To me, it's a story full of interesting ideas, even if the specific plot and execution is sometimes questionable when taken on its own.)

[taetu]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

ALO being a copy of SAO doesn't explain everything, far from it: there is no way ALO would be designed without making a complete overhaul in term of accounts and main frame for the game itself, and since it was already setup 1 year before SAO was terminated, I don't see how it is remotely possible to have Kayaba's "consciousness" being present in ALO despite he surely made a program of himself the moment he dismantled SAO.
It just makes Kayaba's presence in ALO absolutely non sensical, even moreso his ability to support Kazuto.

I'm not going to argue bad story telling but if you were being a lazy developer you could use a lot of the same elements from SAO to make ALO and have these problems. In terms of Kayaba's consciousness, look at Yui. If someone could program that, it goes to show that coding your consciousness isn't to out there. Of course I mainly watch this show for the fact that I'm a programmer and technology anime makes me curious on what to build.

[Maverick05]

Horrible, simply horrible. Animators went into a lot of depth with Asuna`s torture, but with Sughou/Oberion it looked more like a child being spanked rather than "level 0 pain absortion: virtual damage that cause permanent physical effects" as it was suppose to be.

Then the Yui moe wasn`t to my liking.,

Overall, I am simply disappointed about this. I will still watch the last episode just to see if they made or brake the finale.

[Dr. Casey]

Eh... I've read predictions about full-immersion virtual reality being plausible somewhere in the 2030s... I really, really don't think it will take anywhere near as long as the 2200s.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Dengar

While I'm not faulting you for disliking this. I would like to point out that commenting stuff like "easily pleased with nonsense" or "turn off your brain to like this", sounds very condescending towards people who honestly do like it. Almost as if it's criminal or retarded to "even like this garbage".

First:
If i really would think this is garbage, I would say that.

Second:
It is just how i feel about this show. It has many many flaws and many people have pointed them out, but for some odd reason fanboys downplay them or act as if they are not even there.
This show is ok for me, I can like like this when I ignore those flaws and don't think much too about.
I still like this show, otherwise I would have dropped it, but i won't pretend as if the everything is ok with it.