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Kairin · 2012-08-11, 11:46

Welcome to the discussion thread for Hyouka, Episode 17.

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mixordia · 2012-08-12, 11:29

Great episode.

margafred · 2012-08-12, 13:54

Spoiler for Episode 17 of Hyouka:

leokiko · 2012-08-12, 17:42

This case's message was all about 'expectations'. Satoshi's expectations of Oreki and Tanabe's of Mune.

In Kouchi's case, she never read Haruna's manga because she was pissed that her friend that never read manga managed to write such a masterpiece. She didn't want to acknowledge that. In this case it's similar to the rest of them.

Irisu's conversation with Chitanda was kinda of pointless imo, because Chitanda had already noticed that such metod wasn't fit for her. Either way, it's always good to have Irisu on every episode. I guess the only mystery left is why Oreki's sister had "The Corpse of the Evening" manga. Anyway, great episode.

FlareKnight · 2012-08-12, 17:52

This was one heck of an episode. Suppose keyword for this and the entire arc is "expectations."

Suppose this is part of what Houtarou meant about Chitanda not letting him do what he wanted. In the end had to use some blackmail to get the copies sold. Doesn't exactly line up with Chitanda's expectations for him.

In the end Satoshi sees what he thought was impossible actually happen. Houtarou being able to narrow down the suspects from the massive amount of people at the festival down to one person. Clearly Satoshi's issues haven't even come close to being resolved yet and he showed a lot more of his weakness to Mayaka. Though in the end he managed to dip back into that cheerful persona things can't possibly end like this.

Probably for the best that Chitanda is going to give up on that persuasion, it really isn't suited for her. All she needs really is hypno eyes! She just can't manipulate people in that way to create the feeling of expectations. Think trying to act in a way that was contrary to her just added to the drag Chitanda felt this arc.

In some ways thought Mayaka's resolution wasn't as good as I hoped. Since in the end that club is still full of a ton of jerks and that side of it was never resolved. Great that she came to an understanding with the sempai, but that was about it.

A lot of people just hurting after this story was over. Kouchi couldn't face the reality and that's understandable. Someone without interest just pops in and writes something amazing when she couldn't keep up. It was an arc full of that really. Tanabe felt inferior to Kugayama who had excellent talent, but no interest in drawing again. Kouchi had that feeling towards Haruna who made an amazing manga on her first shot. It wasn't that Kouchi's was bad, but it was just a level below Haruna's and that gap had to be agonizing. Can also wrap Satoshi into this. He thought this was a case that Houtarou wouldn't be able to come up with an answer to and he could catch the suspect, but in the end Houtarou still managed to crack it (though with help, especially from his sister). He ends this in frustration as well. It just builds and builds for these characters.

I have to say this arc was done really well. There were fun times and much more serious moments. Glad at the end to get a few laughs from Chitanda being relieved and going right after Houtarou in "I'm curious" mode. Also fun to see Chitanda and Mayaka excited about a celebratory dinner regarding finally selling out XD.

Bahamut · 2012-08-12, 18:03

...back from costa rica trip...
...enjoyed this arc quite alot...
...and i really do like it when they use the whole ep time...no need to see OP and ED all the time...
...if only SAO followed the same idea more often...

Snuffle · 2012-08-12, 18:15

Ever since Satoshi talked to that guy about things were getting stolen/lost, I had my suspicions about that guy since their conversation. He acted like it wasn't really surprised about what was happening, wouldn't you be more concerned or surprised considering his position?

I'm really liking how Satoshi's and Mayaka's characters are developing. However, I think Mayaka can use just a bit more. This arc revealed a lot about her personality which has made me yearn to learn about her. But I wouldn't be surprised if the last few episodes are left for Chitanda and Houtarou.

A nice episode overall, but the conclusion felt a bit diluted to me.

GreyZone · 2012-08-12, 18:42

Wow, I never though that Houtarou would go so far as to blackmail someone. He always made the impression that he does not do anything if it is possible, as long as he doesn't have to.
But now he goes and links the solving of the case to the problem of Hyouka sales. THIS is what i call character developement, though it felt like it came out of nowhere a bit.

This series proves that an anime with well developed characters and a decent story can be better than just a "pure action" anime.
So far for this series, from me: 10/10

oh and what i noticed: The scene in the big hall where the president said "good work".... doesn't that imply that he did "get the message" after all? I mean when the culprit complained that the student council president did not figure it out, it was chronologicially before the ending speech for the festival.

FredFriendly · 2012-08-12, 19:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Wow, I never though that Houtarou would go so far as to blackmail someone.

Not surprised at all. It's the sort of thing that someone without a conscience would do. It fits perfectly with his character.

Quote:

But now he goes and links the solving of the case to the problem of Hyouka sales. THIS is what i call character developement...

It may be character development, but not in a positive way.

I found this episode long, drawn out, and boring. The one thing I found most interesting was that Oreki used something that Satoshi and Chitanda pointed out to him, but which he had, at the time, considered as useless information, as one of the final clues to solving the identity of the culprit.

hilly · 2012-08-12, 19:15

This episode is showing something that a lot of people will have to face in real life...

Think about it,there are something that you can't accomplish by yourselves even if you really determine to do it,and there are talented person that can done it easily but not utilizing their talent to fullest...It would made you have some..mixed feeling...

In Oreki>Satoshi,Satoshi want to win Oreki at least once,but he withdraw when he know it was impossible for him to do it and expect Oreki no more to find the culprit.But, voilà!Oreki not only identified the culprit,he also solve the over printing 'Hyouka" problem with it.Satoshi must had been feel mixed,happy for a capable friend and sad at inferiority of himself.

In Anjou>Ayako senpai>Mayaka,it is the issues of making masterpiece.Anjou,which is a girl that not that interested in reading manga,capable of writing a great story.Ayako know it that Anjou 's talent in making story easily surpassed her,so she stopped reading to not give burden to herself,and push her expectation to Anjou,which didn't interested in manga at all.
Mayaka compared both manga from Anjou and Ayako and she also think Anjou>Ayako and she is 100 level below them.By the time she know that cat design from the manga,she know how much she had hurt Ayako,as she also feel inferior to both senpai.

In Kurayama>Tanaba,Tanaba know Kura had the talent of drawing,which he don't have.Tanaba want Kura read the Kudyarka 's order and draw the masterpiece,but he doesn't have the guts to tell him face on.So,he use a more complicated way to remind Kura.If Kura had read the manuscript of the Kud's order,he may think the story is interesting and draw again.But the case is Kura is drawing 'corpse' on a whim and he doesn't read Kud's order at all!As a background only drawer,he feel himself useless and have expectation to Kura but he also don't want to force the burden to Kura.Another case of inferiority.

Well,the good thing in this episode is Chiatnda know only the "I am curious" eyes(Geass?) persuasive form are more suited for her.Irisu 's style doesn't fit well in Chitanga XD

Yushi · 2012-08-12, 19:16

I gotta say, this episode exceeded my expectations

I loved how it wrapped up everything so nicely, even the seemingly irrelevant details. For example, I never thought the scene where Oreki was surfing the school page to have such relevance in this episode. The conclusion thus felt quite natural as a result, instead of feeling forced or full of deux de machina.

FlareKnight · 2012-08-12, 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Wow, I never though that Houtarou would go so far as to blackmail someone. He always made the impression that he does not do anything if it is possible, as long as he doesn't have to.
But now he goes and links the solving of the case to the problem of Hyouka sales. THIS is what i call character developement, though it felt like it came out of nowhere a bit.

This series proves that an anime with well developed characters and a decent story can be better than just a "pure action" anime.
So far for this series, from me: 10/10

oh and what i noticed: The scene in the big hall where the president said "good work".... doesn't that imply that he did "get the message" after all? I mean when the culprit complained that the student council president did not figure it out, it was chronologicially before the ending speech for the festival.

I wasn't that surprised. Houtarou practically blackmailed that guy in the first arc so they could just hurry up and get the anthologies. Besides in this case it was more of a trade really. Tanabe got to finish his scheme and the Classics Club got to sell out their anthology, it was win/win really. Still he did go out of his way on this one. Maybe he wanted to lessen the burden on everyone and just get the anthologies sold. Otherwise you'd have Mayaka feeling bad and Chitanda feeling bad probably thinking she didn't do a good job getting the copies sold, etc. Do agree it shows some growth since he'd rather solve their problems even if it means "calling out" the culprit and making a deal.

I think it depends on how you look at that "good work" thing. Did he simply understand that Tanabe was behind the thefts or did he also understand why he did it? "Good work" could simply mean he thought the whole thing was a clever idea to make the festival more exciting not that he understood the message behind it.

GreyZone · 2012-08-12, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

I think it depends on how you look at that "good work" thing. Did he simply understand that Tanabe was behind the thefts or did he also understand why he did it? "Good work" could simply mean he thought the whole thing was a clever idea to make the festival more exciting not that he understood the message behind it.

Yea it was never really answered in the end...

Kotohono · 2012-08-12, 19:37

I haven't posted in the subforum for this in a while, but this was really a stand out episode, Houtarou's reasoning, and linking the incident to the doujin Manga and explanation of why it was one, as well as the part with Mayaka and the girl in the Manga Club, and the final target was all really thought, and well executed with music and visuals to really set the mood well, this episode earned a 9/10 from me.(Chitanda's parts stopped it from being a 10).

Sakanaka Shouko · 2012-08-12, 19:53

Houtarou was amazing on this episode. Satoshi is clearly jealous and it looks like Mayaka noticed that. I want to see what will happen in the moment Satoshi have a mental breakdown.

Dr. Casey · 2012-08-12, 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Not surprised at all. It's the sort of thing that someone without a conscience would do. It fits perfectly with his character.

facepalm

Your Oreki hate knows no bounds, Fred.

joeboygo · 2012-08-12, 20:53

Hmm...

Less talented people all hot and bothered because the naturally gifted aren't motivated to exploit their superior abilities to the fullest.

Gee, where have I heard this concept before? Oh that's right. It was the runner analogy. Inside a teahouse. Episode 10. IIRC, the concept of "expectations" also came up.

Remember? Anybody? Bueller?

And Fred:

Go easy on the kid. I don't like him either the way he is now. But he's only 16, tops. How many teenagers do you know who aren't insufferable at that age? I suspect the author deliberately made his personality a work in progress as an integral element of story development. Let's wait until he's old enough to drive before we give him the real once-over.

novalysis · 2012-08-12, 20:55

Probably one of the Strongest Arc Endings of the year, if not the whole season.

And to think that there were a ton of Haters castigating this anime 12 weeks ago!

Shadow5YA · 2012-08-12, 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Wow, I never though that Houtarou would go so far as to blackmail someone. He always made the impression that he does not do anything if it is possible, as long as he doesn't have to.
But now he goes and links the solving of the case to the problem of Hyouka sales. THIS is what i call character developement, though it felt like it came out of nowhere a bit

He's done something like it before. Remember when they tried to get the archived Hyouka anthologies from Tougaito Masashi?

That was a more indirect form of blackmail where Houtarou basically implied, "bring out the anthologies for us, or I'll reveal that you're a smoker and ruin your (family) name and reputation within this school."

hedvix · 2012-08-12, 22:34

I have been getting a vibe that Oreki's older sister (Tomoe Oreki) is actually Anjou Haruna. While we never get a clear specifications of her age, I can't help to think that she is somehow related to the "dream" team. I would imagine that Anjou Haruna could be some form of a "pen name" that a lot of writers like to use.

Here are some hints:
- Anjou Haruna was said to have "transferred off". Oreki's sister is currently living abroad in India.
- There was a scene of Oreki sister reading the school's newspaper (EP16) about to jumonji incident and said "naruhodo" (I see/I understand/I get it)... What does she understand?!?!?
- She happens to carry the manga "A corpse by evening" and gives it to Hotarou? and says the weird line afterwards "whether this staves off your boredom or not is up to you". To me it feels like as if she is giving Hotarou a hint to solve the Jumomji accident which is contained in the manga.

View Poll Results: Hyouka - Episode 17 Rating
Perfect 10	36	42.35%
9 out of 10 : Excellent	35	41.18%
8 out of 10 : Very Good	9	10.59%
7 out of 10 : Good	2	2.35%
6 out of 10 : Average	2	2.35%
5 out of 10 : Below Average	0	0%
4 out of 10 : Poor	1	1.18%
3 out of 10 : Bad	0	0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad	0	0%
1 out of 10 : Painful	0	0%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

2012-08-12, 13:54	Link #3
margafred ლ(́◉◞౪◟ ◉ ლ ) Join Date: Jul 2007	Spoiler for Episode 17 of Hyouka: As the post above me said, its truly great episode, 9/10... - Chitanda's persuasion turns into begging... which somehow hit Irisu's nerves. And Chitanda gets a free lecture from Irisu. - Juumonji's last act inside Classic club... ends with a bang. Instead of taking it away, the target item was instead blown inside Classic club, in front of many people, including Fukube, Chitanda, Mayaka and... ehem - But before the last act, Oreki already met and revealed the culprit.. and even blackmail him for the sake of the anthologies lol. Its a long story between the culprit and the doujin author, and Fukube overheard everything. - In return, Oreki helps the culprit to finish his final act inside Classic club, using chemistry way. Although Fukube is hesitant to let Juumonji get away, but this time, he has to, and have to act according to what Oreki had planned. - Mayaka and Manga Society president's drama... somehow this part kinda made me touched. All well ends well... hmuu hmuu, that should be the exact phrase to describe Mayaka's story with the Manga society. - In the end, they left with 4 unsold anthologies, and each one of them buying the remaining anthology. Its a good episode.. good episode... feeling relieved that now this long arc has finished.. but above that, the way they made the final episode for Kanya festival arc. Have to say its really good, and i enjoyed every minute of it.

2012-08-12, 17:52	Link #5
FlareKnight User of the "Fast Draw" Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Canada	This was one heck of an episode. Suppose keyword for this and the entire arc is "expectations." Suppose this is part of what Houtarou meant about Chitanda not letting him do what he wanted. In the end had to use some blackmail to get the copies sold. Doesn't exactly line up with Chitanda's expectations for him. In the end Satoshi sees what he thought was impossible actually happen. Houtarou being able to narrow down the suspects from the massive amount of people at the festival down to one person. Clearly Satoshi's issues haven't even come close to being resolved yet and he showed a lot more of his weakness to Mayaka. Though in the end he managed to dip back into that cheerful persona things can't possibly end like this. Probably for the best that Chitanda is going to give up on that persuasion, it really isn't suited for her. All she needs really is hypno eyes! She just can't manipulate people in that way to create the feeling of expectations. Think trying to act in a way that was contrary to her just added to the drag Chitanda felt this arc. In some ways thought Mayaka's resolution wasn't as good as I hoped. Since in the end that club is still full of a ton of jerks and that side of it was never resolved. Great that she came to an understanding with the sempai, but that was about it. A lot of people just hurting after this story was over. Kouchi couldn't face the reality and that's understandable. Someone without interest just pops in and writes something amazing when she couldn't keep up. It was an arc full of that really. Tanabe felt inferior to Kugayama who had excellent talent, but no interest in drawing again. Kouchi had that feeling towards Haruna who made an amazing manga on her first shot. It wasn't that Kouchi's was bad, but it was just a level below Haruna's and that gap had to be agonizing. Can also wrap Satoshi into this. He thought this was a case that Houtarou wouldn't be able to come up with an answer to and he could catch the suspect, but in the end Houtarou still managed to crack it (though with help, especially from his sister). He ends this in frustration as well. It just builds and builds for these characters. I have to say this arc was done really well. There were fun times and much more serious moments. Glad at the end to get a few laughs from Chitanda being relieved and going right after Houtarou in "I'm curious" mode. Also fun to see Chitanda and Mayaka excited about a celebratory dinner regarding finally selling out XD. __________________ Anime-Evo

2012-08-12, 18:15	Link #7
Snuffle likes cute things Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Searching for more imoutos Age: 43	Ever since Satoshi talked to that guy about things were getting stolen/lost, I had my suspicions about that guy since their conversation. He acted like it wasn't really surprised about what was happening, wouldn't you be more concerned or surprised considering his position? I'm really liking how Satoshi's and Mayaka's characters are developing. However, I think Mayaka can use just a bit more. This arc revealed a lot about her personality which has made me yearn to learn about her. But I wouldn't be surprised if the last few episodes are left for Chitanda and Houtarou. A nice episode overall, but the conclusion felt a bit diluted to me. Last edited by Snuffle; 2012-08-12 at 20:20.

2012-08-12, 19:53	Link #15
Sakanaka Shouko Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012	Houtarou was amazing on this episode. Satoshi is clearly jealous and it looks like Mayaka noticed that. I want to see what will happen in the moment Satoshi have a mental breakdown. __________________

2012-08-12, 11:29	Link #2
mixordia ... Join Date: Jan 2012	Great episode.

2012-08-12, 17:42	Link #4
leokiko Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2012	This case's message was all about 'expectations'. Satoshi's expectations of Oreki and Tanabe's of Mune. In Kouchi's case, she never read Haruna's manga because she was pissed that her friend that never read manga managed to write such a masterpiece. She didn't want to acknowledge that. In this case it's similar to the rest of them. Irisu's conversation with Chitanda was kinda of pointless imo, because Chitanda had already noticed that such metod wasn't fit for her. Either way, it's always good to have Irisu on every episode. I guess the only mystery left is why Oreki's sister had "The Corpse of the Evening" manga. Anyway, great episode.

2012-08-12, 18:03	Link #6
Bahamut ...lost in nothingness... Join Date: Dec 2005	...back from costa rica trip... ...enjoyed this arc quite alot... ...and i really do like it when they use the whole ep time...no need to see OP and ED all the time... ...if only SAO followed the same idea more often...

2012-08-12, 18:42	Link #8
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	Wow, I never though that Houtarou would go so far as to blackmail someone. He always made the impression that he does not do anything if it is possible, as long as he doesn't have to. But now he goes and links the solving of the case to the problem of Hyouka sales. THIS is what i call character developement, though it felt like it came out of nowhere a bit. This series proves that an anime with well developed characters and a decent story can be better than just a "pure action" anime. So far for this series, from me: 10/10 oh and what i noticed: The scene in the big hall where the president said "good work".... doesn't that imply that he did "get the message" after all? I mean when the culprit complained that the student council president did not figure it out, it was chronologicially before the ending speech for the festival.

2012-08-12, 19:15	Link #10
hilly hilly Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: M	This episode is showing something that a lot of people will have to face in real life... Think about it,there are something that you can't accomplish by yourselves even if you really determine to do it,and there are talented person that can done it easily but not utilizing their talent to fullest...It would made you have some..mixed feeling... In Oreki>Satoshi,Satoshi want to win Oreki at least once,but he withdraw when he know it was impossible for him to do it and expect Oreki no more to find the culprit.But, voilà!Oreki not only identified the culprit,he also solve the over printing 'Hyouka" problem with it.Satoshi must had been feel mixed,happy for a capable friend and sad at inferiority of himself. In Anjou>Ayako senpai>Mayaka,it is the issues of making masterpiece.Anjou,which is a girl that not that interested in reading manga,capable of writing a great story.Ayako know it that Anjou 's talent in making story easily surpassed her,so she stopped reading to not give burden to herself,and push her expectation to Anjou,which didn't interested in manga at all. Mayaka compared both manga from Anjou and Ayako and she also think Anjou>Ayako and she is 100 level below them.By the time she know that cat design from the manga,she know how much she had hurt Ayako,as she also feel inferior to both senpai. In Kurayama>Tanaba,Tanaba know Kura had the talent of drawing,which he don't have.Tanaba want Kura read the Kudyarka 's order and draw the masterpiece,but he doesn't have the guts to tell him face on.So,he use a more complicated way to remind Kura.If Kura had read the manuscript of the Kud's order,he may think the story is interesting and draw again.But the case is Kura is drawing 'corpse' on a whim and he doesn't read Kud's order at all!As a background only drawer,he feel himself useless and have expectation to Kura but he also don't want to force the burden to Kura.Another case of inferiority. Well,the good thing in this episode is Chiatnda know only the "I am curious" eyes(Geass?) persuasive form are more suited for her.Irisu 's style doesn't fit well in Chitanga XD

2012-08-12, 19:16	Link #11
Yushi Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	I gotta say, this episode exceeded my expectations I loved how it wrapped up everything so nicely, even the seemingly irrelevant details. For example, I never thought the scene where Oreki was surfing the school page to have such relevance in this episode. The conclusion thus felt quite natural as a result, instead of feeling forced or full of deux de machina.

2012-08-12, 20:53	Link #17
joeboygo mechaii Join Date: Jul 2009 Age: 44	Hmm... Less talented people all hot and bothered because the naturally gifted aren't motivated to exploit their superior abilities to the fullest. Gee, where have I heard this concept before? Oh that's right. It was the runner analogy. Inside a teahouse. Episode 10. IIRC, the concept of "expectations" also came up. Remember? Anybody? Bueller? And Fred: Go easy on the kid. I don't like him either the way he is now. But he's only 16, tops. How many teenagers do you know who aren't insufferable at that age? I suspect the author deliberately made his personality a work in progress as an integral element of story development. Let's wait until he's old enough to drive before we give him the real once-over.

2012-08-12, 20:55	Link #18
novalysis Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2011	Probably one of the Strongest Arc Endings of the year, if not the whole season. And to think that there were a ton of Haters castigating this anime 12 weeks ago!

2012-08-12, 22:34	Link #20
hedvix Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2012	I have been getting a vibe that Oreki's older sister (Tomoe Oreki) is actually Anjou Haruna. While we never get a clear specifications of her age, I can't help to think that she is somehow related to the "dream" team. I would imagine that Anjou Haruna could be some form of a "pen name" that a lot of writers like to use. Here are some hints: - Anjou Haruna was said to have "transferred off". Oreki's sister is currently living abroad in India. - There was a scene of Oreki sister reading the school's newspaper (EP16) about to jumonji incident and said "naruhodo" (I see/I understand/I get it)... What does she understand?!?!? - She happens to carry the manga "A corpse by evening" and gives it to Hotarou? and says the weird line afterwards "whether this staves off your boredom or not is up to you". To me it feels like as if she is giving Hotarou a hint to solve the Jumomji accident which is contained in the manga.