(L) Girls und Panzer

[MeisterBabylon]

Anyone bothering with Superheavies?

[PzIVf3]

Spoiler for City Carrier spotted at Google Earth:

Original Link http://twitpic.com/b7icds

[Zaku_II]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Really now? Every way? I'd say Soviet armour beats them by a bit in pure firepower by weight class. Armour wise....you'd be hard pressed to find anything better protected than an IS-3

This is debatable, the 75mm/L70 of Panther has better penetration than the Russian 85mm from the T-34/85, and the 88mm/L71 from König Tiger is comparable with the 122mm from the IS-2.

Don't remember, but even the 75mm/L48 from Panzer IV G/H/J and Stug III F/G could be better than the 76mm of T-34/76.

The IS-3 is a beast for other war. Maybe it could qualify in girls und panzer, but their german equivalents would be the projected E-50 (a bigger Panther with the 88mm/L71 gun) and the E-75 (Tiger III with 128mm gun).

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

There are no doccumented penetrations from the front of Konigstiger in combat....

Kubinka testing range experiment was under repeated test conditions

Is true that quality of the steel of the armour of late war german tanks was worse than the early-mid war because the germans had to change the composition of the steel used in armor cause the shortage of some raw materials.

But the König Tiger compensated this with increased thickness and the use of inclined shield for the frontal armour (against the vertical shielding of Tiger I).

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Really now? Every way? I'd say Soviet armour beats them by a bit in pure firepower by weight class. Armour wise....you'd be hard pressed to find anything better protected than an IS-3

German tanks are more like snipers than anything else....

German AFVs had the best gun sights in the war. They were a bit wasted on Team A's Pz. IV though.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

There are no doccumented penetrations from the front of Konigstiger in combat....

Kubinka testing range experiment was under repeated test conditions

It'd be more correct to say that there were no documented penetrations of the glacis plate. Turret penetrations accounted for a number of dead Tiger IIs. There were certainly Allied guns powerful enough though. In any case, the Tiger IIs limitations meant that it never had the sterling combat record that the Tiger I had.

It's true that the Kubinka trials were flawed, but pretty much all wartime trials were flawed in some way - so all results should be taken with a grain of salt. It's still enough to give us a rough idea of the capabilities.

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Possible Tiger P, Panther F, PzIv auf Einheitsfahrgestell III/IV, T-1/M-6, E-100, ARL 44, A39 Tortoisse and the twin 88 mm Maus.

There's usually a good reason why prototype units were never produced and fielded. Without seeing the vigors of actual use, they exist as little more than paper figures. Production models are so much sexier.

Originally Posted by Zaku_II

This is debatable, the 75mm/L70 of Panther has better penetration than the Russian 85mm from the T-34/85, and the 88mm/L71 from König Tiger is comparable with the 122mm from the IS-2.

Don't remember, but even the 75mm/L48 from Panzer IV G/H/J and Stug III F/G could be better than the 76mm of T-34/76.

The Panther is more properly compared with the IS-2 as they weigh about the same. Likewise, the late Pz. IVs should be compared with the late T-34s.

You're correct about the 75mm L48 having better penetration than the early 76mm. It's one of the reasons the T-34 was upgunned to the 85mm gun.

Originally Posted by Zaku_II

The IS-3 is a beast for other war. Maybe it could qualify in girls und panzer, but their german equivalents would be the projected E-50 (a bigger Panther with the 88mm/L71 gun) and the E-75 (Tiger III with 128mm gun).

The IS-3 was fielded in World War II - they may have even seen combat! If we're going with theoretical vehicles, I'd take a Centurion with a stabilized L7 over any tank proposed in World War II.

[RedShocktrooper]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Looks like the American T29 series of Heavy tanks don't satisfy the requirements of time unfortunately.

Actually, if it's put together with period equipment (Read: Recycled parts from Damaged-Beyond-Repair M26 Pershings?) it seems the T29 is legal.

EDIT: Also, is "kitbashing" vehicles legal, do you think?

[LoweGear]

More miscellaneous info, this time about the girl's favorite tanks supposedly from the japanese wiki. Some surprising choices here:

Miho: birthday is the 23.10. Favourite tank the PzKpfw II
Saori: birthday is the 22.6. favourite tank the M26 Pershing
Hana: birthday is the 16.12. favourite tank the Carro Veloce L3
Yukari: birthday is the 6.6. favourite tank the 7TP with twin tower, but also likes the Náhuel medium tank
Mako: birthday is the 1.9. favourite tank the Panzer V Panther

Leave it to Yukari to favorite such obscure tanks. Saori has the same taste in tanks as me though, I approve.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by RedShocktrooper

EDIT: Also, is "kitbashing" vehicles legal, do you think?

When we consider this:

Originally Posted by LoweGear

- Only tanks made before August 15, 1945 (aka VJ Day) are allowed.
- Completed prototype tanks (with above provision) are allowed, and, at the discretion of the Japan Senshado Federation, anything which was in the planning stages that could be made with parts manufactured before that date.

I would say no.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Zaku_II

This is debatable, the 75mm/L70 of Panther has better penetration than the Russian 85mm from the T-34/85, and the 88mm/L71 from König Tiger is comparable with the 122mm from the IS-2.

Don't remember, but even the 75mm/L48 from Panzer IV G/H/J and Stug III F/G could be better than the 76mm of T-34/76.

The IS-3 is a beast for other war. Maybe it could qualify in girls und panzer, but their german equivalents would be the projected E-50 (a bigger Panther with the 88mm/L71 gun) and the E-75 (Tiger III with 128mm gun).

I said firepower...not penetration.

WWII armour was not so advanced so you could pulverize a tank with large caliber shells through brute explosive force. Something which the Soviet 152mm guns excelled at.....there is good reason that SU and ISU-152 were known as Zveroboi. 152mm hits to turret could rip the whole thing off.

German guns had best penetration capability throughout the war that is true. Although I think 90mm of Pershing and BS3 100mm could match them

It'd be more correct to say that there were no documented penetrations of the glacis plate. Turret penetrations accounted for a number of dead Tiger IIs. There were certainly Allied guns powerful enough though. In any case, the Tiger IIs limitations meant that it never had the sterling combat record that the Tiger I had.

Turret is generally the weakest armoured of any tank...most thinly at the top. That's why gunners aimed at the turret if possible, so Tiger II being penetrated from front at turret is not surprising.

The Panther is more properly compared with the IS-2 as they weigh about the same

IS-2's construction made it light for a heavy tank but comparing it to Panther is a bit out of the Panther's league. IS-2 is more like the Soviet Tiger

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by RedShocktrooper

Actually, if it's put together with period equipment (Read: Recycled parts from Damaged-Beyond-Repair M26 Pershings?) it seems the T29 is legal.

Was the T29 prototype even finished by the end of the war?

Originally Posted by RedShocktrooper

EDIT: Also, is "kitbashing" vehicles legal, do you think?

Probably only if that configuration existed in real life. Otherwise, you'd see things like all of the Soviet tanks changing out their 122mm guns for 100mm ones.

Originally Posted by LoweGear

More miscellaneous info, this time about the girl's favorite tanks supposedly from the japanese wiki. Some surprising choices here:

Leave it to Yukari to favorite such obscure tanks. Saori has the same taste in tanks as me though, I approve.

7TP? That's awesome! Miho fails for choosing such an unsexy tank though.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

German guns had best penetration capability throughout the war that is true. Although I think 90mm of Pershing and BS3 100mm could match them

The 90mm is only about equal to the 88mm L56 of the Tiger I. The 88mm L71 of the Tiger II is a cut above that. The 100mm should be better than the 90mm, but just a hair shy of the 88mm L71 (the main difference should be accuracy).

The Allied gun with the best penetration that was commonly fielded should be the 17-pounder firing APDS ammo.

[Zaku_II]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Turret is generally the weakest armoured of any tank...most thinly at the top. That's why gunners aimed at the turret if possible, so Tiger II being penetrated from front at turret is not surprising.

Not really, normally the gun mantlet is the best armoured part of a tank (by thicness or by a good ballistic shape) because is the main aiming point for the enemy gunners. The latest german tanks (König Tiger and Panther ausf F) had an small turret´s frontal secction and a cilindrical mantlet (saukopf - boar's head) that made it a difficult target to hit and more difficult to pierce (the best modern analogy is the Merkava tank).

Oviously, the german tanks still were vulnerable on the sides (like all the tanks) and rear part (hull and turret)

Originally Posted by 4tran

The 90mm is only about equal to the 88mm L56 of the Tiger I. The 88mm L71 of the Tiger II is a cut above that. The 100mm should be better than the 90mm, but just a hair shy of the 88mm L71 (the main difference should be accuracy).

The Allied gun with the best penetration that was commonly fielded should be the 17-pounder firing APDS ammo.

All the quote is true, but the accuracy of the APDS (Armour Piercing, Discarding Sabot) of 17 pounder, the true Tiger killer was bad wiki

[Random Wanderer]

...Wow. I feel highly uneducated among the military otaku that this series seems to have gathered.

Would it be correct to say that our heroines' Panzer VI is the most versatile of the tanks their school possesses: combining semi-decent firepower with speed and maneuverability? A few pages back when someone listed the pros and cons of the various tanks, that one seemed to have the best balance between positives and negatives.

I'm wondering because it seems rather odd to me that they were chosen as the decoy in this fight with the British tanks. With HEAT rounds it seems like they contribute more to the group's firepower than any other except the STuG. I would think it would be wiser to add their firepower to the ambushing group and send one of the weaker tanks out as the decoy instead.

[RedShocktrooper]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

I would say no.

My thoughts are that if it's one of those "Real Life Kitbashes" (Like the Panzerkampfwagen KV-I 756(r) or the SU-76i), it's legal, because in both cases the tank was at least prototyped.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Was the T29 prototype even finished by the end of the war?

Seems so; it was at least in the process of being pieced together since 1943, though, so it might require fudging the details.

Probably only if that configuration existed in real life. Otherwise, you'd see things like all of the Soviet tanks changing out their 122mm guns for 100mm ones.

Again, the SU-76i or the 756(r).

7TP? That's awesome! Miho fails for choosing such an unsexy tank though.

Shaddup, the Panzer II is a very moe little tank by nature.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by MeisterBabylon

Anyone bothering with Superheavies?

Nobody bothered to produce the superheavies because they're pretty terrible. They're so hard to field, maintain, and keep running that it's like giving yourself a serious handicap.

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

IS-2's construction made it light for a heavy tank but comparing it to Panther is a bit out of the Panther's league. IS-2 is more like the Soviet Tiger

But the Panther and the IS-2 weigh almost the same, while the the T-34/85 is 13.5 tons lighter.

It's not so much that the IS-2 is light for a heavy tank - it's that the Panther is ridiculously heavy for a medium! At least the British had the grace to call their super-medium a main battle tank.

Originally Posted by Zaku_II

All the quote is true, but the accuracy of the APDS (Armour Piercing, Discarding Sabot) of 17 pounder, the true Tiger killer was bad wiki

The difference in accuracy is only relative: the 17-pounder was already the most accurate Allied gun while firing AP ammunition. And it was so powerful to begin with that it simply didn't need APDS against most targets. I think that only the Jagdtiger (88), Tiger II (492) and Elefant (91) would warrant it. But if you need the job done, there's simply no substitute.

The 17-pounder is the sexiest of guns. It's just too bad that the Americans turned it down when they were offered it.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Would it be correct to say that our heroines' Panzer VI is the most versatile of the tanks their school possesses: combining semi-decent firepower with speed and maneuverability? A few pages back when someone listed the pros and cons of the various tanks, that one seemed to have the best balance between positives and negatives.

Not quite. The M3 is technically the most versatile as it has two different guns. But in terms of effectiveness, I'd imagine the StuG III would be the best. The lack of a turret hurts its offensive capabilities, but none of the other tanks are that great at them either. If the Pz. IV were upgunned to the long 75mm variants, then it would be the most balanced. The short 75mm is a big disadvantage when it comes to tank combat - it's only accurate vs. vehicle to about 500m, and typical tank engagements are 800m-900m.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

I'm wondering because it seems rather odd to me that they were chosen as the decoy in this fight with the British tanks. With HEAT rounds it seems like they contribute more to the group's firepower than any other except the STuG. I would think it would be wiser to add their firepower to the ambushing group and send one of the weaker tanks out as the decoy instead.

That seemed odd to me as well. The 38(t) would seem to be a much better choice as it wouldn't be able to contribute that much offensively (Type 89 is the joke choice). The problem with that is that not being as much of a threat means that St. Gloriana wouldn't commit their whole force, so the plan would be less effective.

I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Originally Posted by RedShocktrooper

Seems so; it was at least in the process of being pieced together since 1943, though, so it might require fudging the details.

It's not atypical for project to drag on for several years, especially when it comes to heavy tanks. I wouldn't be surprised if the first prototype wasn't ready until 1946. It shouldn't matter too much either way as the T29 doesn't look like such a great tank anyways, especially when compared to the Brits with their shiny Centurions.

Originally Posted by RedShocktrooper

Again, the SU-76i or the 756(r).

I meant that they would pair their heavy tanks (IS-2 and IS-3) with their best anti-tank guns. They didn't do that in real life because their heavy tanks weren't solely designed to duel other tanks.

Originally Posted by RedShocktrooper

Shaddup, the Panzer II is a very moe little tank by nature.

The Pz. II is a completely uninspired design that does nothing either in terms of design space or capability. There's just nothing noteworthy about it. The 7TP has way more personality in comparison. At least they had an excuse with the Pz. I.

[Chiaki_chan]

Originally Posted by PzIVf3

Spoiler for City Carrier spotted at Google Earth:

Original Link http://twitpic.com/b7icds

L-LOOOOOOOOOOOOL F-Fake very well done

[Endless Soul]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Mako: birthday is the 1.9. favourite tank the Panzer V Panther

Atta'girl Mako! I knew I liked you for more than just your good looks.

Endless "That's my girl" Soul

[PzIVf3]

Spoiler for The Russia is here:

Could be the Final boss?

[Midonin]

I was wondering what happened to KujiUn's Ritsuko.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

But the Panther and the IS-2 weigh almost the same, while the the T-34/85 is 13.5 tons lighter.

It's not so much that the IS-2 is light for a heavy tank - it's that the Panther is ridiculously heavy for a medium! At least the British had the grace to call their super-medium a main battle tank.


I meant that they would pair their heavy tanks (IS-2 and IS-3) with their best anti-tank guns. They didn't do that in real life because their heavy tanks weren't solely designed to duel other tanks.

IS-2 was actually designed to be light for a heavy tank as well. Something to do with the armour layout IIRC...

Stalin series were breakthrough units. In accordance with deep battle theory, the T-34/85s were the ones that actually dealt the blow to the enemy's strategic assets.

Large portion of the Soviet kills of heavy panzers came from large caliber artillery or SPGs as compared to the Allies with more traditional penetrators


What I would really like to see is ISU-152 vs Jagdtiger or Konigstiger....

And an analysis of the minimum explosive force required for penetration to become moot.

After all, when you see things like this...

Spoiler:

Admittedly, German armour became more and more brittle as the war dragged on due to resource constraints and the destruction from the last pic is mostlikely helped by an internal explosion but still, it does get one thinking...

You'd never see this happen to modern armour after all...

[LoweGear]

So more trivia, this time from another forum who saw the post on the girl's birthdays and favorite tanks:

Originally Posted by Nebfer

As for the Birth days it seems to be their taken from the start dates of...
Miho = Operation Lightfoot (AKA Second Battle of El Alamein)
Saori = Operation Barbarossa (German Invasion of Russia)
Hana = Operation Wacht am Rhein (Battle of the Bulge)
Yukari = Operation Overlord (D-Day, allied invasion of occupied France)
Mako = Operation Fall Weiss (Case White, German Invasion of Poland)

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

Admittedly, German armour became more and more brittle as the war dragged on due to resource constraints and the destruction from the last pic is mostlikely helped by an internal explosion but still, it does get one thinking...

You'd never see this happen to modern armour after all...

Brittle is the side effect of hardness. US was of the misconseption during the war that soft metal made for the best armor due to bending rather then breaking. But hardness helps preventing penetration in the first place. This not only made US armor easily penetrated by everyone, but it also led to one of the major miscalculations during the war. US used their own soft armor when trying out their guns and thus according to their tests so would their guns work on both Tigers and Panthers, but that proved wrong in practice due to the face hardened armor used by the Germans.

Modern armor go boom even more then armor did in WWII. The reason that the main battle tank concept is used nowdays is because there is no point in making heavy tanks. The Guns won the tug of war over Armor, ie there is no point in making any heavier tanks as they will still be destroyed by the standard guns of the enemy.