Psycho-Pass 2 - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[RoboMambo]

Is it me, or Ginoza wasn't such a tool during the first season?

Overall I'm unimpressed. The whole thing was a tad too heavy handed. Mika and Aoyanami's stupidity and dependence on Sybil was too overplayed. So was everyone's passivity against the old guy. I get people not jumping at him, but no one even tried defending themselves as he beat them to death.

I also agree with above comments on the absurdity of the absolute reliance on dominators. I get why the lack of any other weapons is desirable from the system's point of view, but there should be a degree of compromise with reality. Not so much from Sybil but from inspectors, but we just saw someone almost getting killed for insisting on using the dominator when it had already failed. And we also saw it being a complete liability on season one.

But hey, we got gore at least.

Originally Posted by Kanon

After what we've just witnessed -Sibyl ordering all of the obvious victims to be killed with only Division one noticing what was wrong- that strikes me as a pretty silly argument

Has there actually ever been a case where Sibyl's judgment was more useful than that of an inspector with common sense? One where the inspector would have made a mistake if not for Sibyl telling him what to do? I honestly can't recall. We keep getting shown how deeply flawed it is since the very first episode of the first season, but we never see its good points. I'm starting to find it harder and harder to believe a system like that would be able to hold up for more than a decade.

I think looking at it that way is misunderstanding Sybil objective. The system doesn't aim at being an improvement of our own judicial system, based on crime and culpability, but to work as system based in social health, judging liability instead. So it doesn't even consider the concept of victim and culprit relevant. So I'd say that killing everyone in there was the intended outcome, because victims or not, with such crime coefficient they were liabilities to social health.

To clarify, I'm not saying that Sybil is right, just that's it's wrong in a different way. For one the idea of reducing someone's psyche to one-dimensional variable is absurd, and preemptively exploding them for it even more so. Also, it totally lacks the capacity for psychological treatment that should back a system based on mental health.

As for the good points, I think that we can extrapolate them from the bad ones. For example we have twice or more been shown people's reaction to crime. And yes, they've been shown completely incapable of dealing with it, being either powerless or skeptic of the crime as they watched. While those are bad, it also implies that society is peaceful enough that people don't even consider violence possible. Also I get the impression that things work out just fine for most people, living in a peaceful society and receiving guidance through various elements of life, while the various bad cases, from workers going postal to people that just slowly get clouded, are the outliers, the people getting the short end of the stick in this specific arrangement.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

My problem with that interpretation of Sybil position is that it doesn't make any sense with situations that do NOT involve asymptomatic individuals, and that's with a system logic standard, not a mere society/culture clash, or whatever.

I hate repeating myself, but you didn't provide any convincing argument regarding the lack of logical organization of law enforcement.
Let me get this straight: how MWPSB officers are going to deal with criminals if they are disarmed?

They don't. That's not supposed to happen.

You keep mentioning that Sybil consider the risk of having asymptomatic criminals to have free reign because they cannot be judged by the dominators, but you are missing the very other possibility I keep mentioning: that EVEN legit targets for the dominator can give the MWPSB officers a run for their money, the very moment the latter are deprived of their dominators.

Like I said, they could simply impose a procedure that allow physical actions against a suspect, then use the dominator to deal proper judgement afterwards (however non sensical it is to our society standards, that is).
But as of now, any gang could simply demolish an Inspector and Enforcer couple the moment they can disarm the latter with just sheer numbers, traps, or brawling experience.

Gangs aren't supposed to exist, let alone have brawling experience.

And Enforcers can be as brutal as they need to be, as long as they don't make a spectacle that will cloud the hue of the Inspectors (or bystanders, if any). They're already latent criminals, anyway. It's Inspectors, who still have something to lose, who can't afford to punch a perp in the face.

[Lenox]

Girl needs to die NOW, no but seriously how retarded can you be. She's beyond useless and if she didn't learn anything today then I don't know why she's even in this show because so far all she's done is make me hate her and nothing else no silver lining, no progress to show that she's growing, nothing. Oh I'm talking about Mika in case you don't know. Ha RIP Aoyanagi your sexy self will be missed, why couldnt it have been Mika no one would have missed her.

[Soconfused]

The frustrating thing about this season, is that pretty much every act of stupidity can be explained away by the Sibil System. I don't feel this was the case in the first season, or at least, it wasn't so heavy handed. From the way civilians seem to be helpless sheep, to the general incompetence of the MWPSB, to Kamui being able to walk out of the back door of the building like it was nothing (" ahh his hue is clear, whatever, let him pass!"), all of it just makes you roll your eyes, and you wanna be angry, then you remember that the world is this way because of the Sibil System, so you can't really blame anyone. It's made almost every episode of this season frustrating to watch, which sucks because you can almost really enjoy each episode, but end up face palming by the end. I hope things get better.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I don't know, I still think a person's innate instinct to fight for their own survival would kick in at some point. The need to survive usually supersedes any sort of notion in regards to what could happen later, or what society will think, of if their hue would change, or anything like that, usually trying to live is paramount.

....

I mean, all those times that the guy was taking a break breathing oxygen? All the guys didn't want to attack together? He might get one, but all of you? And how strong is this elderly guy that he could smash a guy's skull by only stepping on it a couple of times?

Originally Posted by atua

People are fundamentally animals. We like to fool ourselves with the polite fiction that we're more evolved, more sophisticated than that, but that is a lie. The fight/flight survival instincts are incredibly strong primitive responses that exists in everyone. No amount of social conditioning can change that, IMO.

First, there was a guy that tried to charge and attack the old man. He ended up in a pile of blood. That of course has freaked out everyone else from attacking.

Also, there is a point people seem to be missing about this. This is a psychiatric ward with people who are taking medication to suppress their emotions and thoughts. They are not going to act like normal people. They are drugged to be emotionless. Add on that the social conditioning, they will be passive.

Originally Posted by atua

Why is line of sight required? As I understand it, brain wave patterns are unique, and with street PP scanners in place a database can be built matching a face to a brain pattern. I know the way PP scans work were not made explicit, but surely brain wave patterns would be one of the things read. So if a dominator can scan a brain for a crime coefficient, it should be able to identify them too.

I'm not sure about brain wave patterns, but I think that it can change depending on the psychological state the person is in. I think that a normal person who has been put under psychological stress to become crazy themselves will have a different brain wave pattern.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Their first priority should be to teach them how to defend themselves and not rely solely on their dominators. I think it's a very serious problem that the exact same events as the first season are repeating themselves and Sibyl has no counterplan whatsoever. If you have to choose between undermining the system a tiny bit and the threat of its complete destruction, you don't really have to think twice.

I guess the problem with this is that if the inspectors start to think for themselves and question the system, you no longer have 1 or 2 individuals creating potential problems. You are now faced with the people you need to work for you potentially creating a large group of people that will fight the system. That is a much more concern for Sibyl than to face 1 individual who is an outlier. An inspector or enforcer dying is better than one that will defy the system.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

*snip*

And my problem with your argument is that we do see that Enforcers and Inspectors do have a degree of combat ability, as well as some potential for creativity in using what's at hand. However, what always throws them is the issue of the Dominator not working, because of their absolute faith that it should work. And it's this absolute faith that Sibyl refuses to shake, because they think that doing so will undermine their system more than any other scenario can.

I do agree that stun batons and other such equipment should have been made standard after Makishima. But the 'faith in the system problem' applies for situations like the helmets too: Sibyl is meant to pick up people planning such activities, so that it doesn't even get to the stage of an incident. So admitting that someone can plan such an incident without being caught also undermines Sibyl's absolute authority.

I'm not saying that I agree with their logic, but as I keep suggesting, you really need to think about it from their point of view, because whilst I understand your logic, I'm not sure you have completely understood Sibyl's logic.

--

NB: The other problem they have is the structure of authority in the MWPSB (Enforcers not being allowed to do anything without an Inspector around, or disobeying an Inspector), but again, I don't see them changing that.

[Jerseykid]

Kogami would have charged right in there and kicked some ass!

[mechalord]

Originally Posted by Definitegj

That is not what i get out of season 1 psycho pass. Quite different from what i interpreted. They do not desire irregulars to exist.

The Sibyl system is incapable of calculating the criminal intent of Makishima even with the collective processing of the brains, which in the end caused Makishima to be asymptomatic . They lacks the understanding of Makishima thinking process. Sibyl know they are flawed and must prevent the same thing from happening again. And the solution they come up with is that they need Makishima's brain to detect future people with Makishima's thinking.

So Sibyl desperately need Makishima brain to improve the system (to evolve). So Sybil would even bend some of its own rules to prevent Kogami from killing Makishima. Is ironic that Sibyl needs to assimilate asymptomatic criminals to prevent asymptomatic criminals from occurring but ultimate motive is to prevent irregulars from existing, not for irregulars to exist.

The brains understand how Makishima thinks. He's one of them. He's an extreme sociopath.

You've got to read up sociopaths. Sociopaths are not considered mad or insane. They have personality disorders and think differently from regular people.

The Sibyl system is designed to keep normal people under control. The extreme sociopaths without a shred of remorse, regret, fear, etc. have the clearest hues. Their criminality can't be measured.

They can't keep asymptomatic criminals from occurring. They just assimilate them to the collective to make the collective more powerful and improve the control over society.

Criminals get caught because they get excited during their crimes, show wavering remorse, etc. This is how their hues get clouded.

Makishima did brutal things without getting excited.

Kamui seems to be keeping the hues of his subjects clear by giving them missions or purpose. He makes them feel morally superior and gives them missions. So they do screwed up things without clouding their hues.

Akane appears to be clear because she is either a latent sociopath herself or because she's supreme moralist, trying to do good, and has a lot of faith. Akane is drawn with sleepy eyes and she's kind of chubby. She's kind of a low-energy person but one that has a lot of drive and talent. Things came easy for her growing up.

[mechalord]

Originally Posted by Soconfused

The frustrating thing about this season, is that pretty much every act of stupidity can be explained away by the Sibil System. I don't feel this was the case in the first season, or at least, it wasn't so heavy handed. From the way civilians seem to be helpless sheep, to the general incompetence of the MWPSB, to Kamui being able to walk out of the back door of the building like it was nothing (" ahh his hue is clear, whatever, let him pass!"), all of it just makes you roll your eyes, and you wanna be angry, then you remember that the world is this way because of the Sibil System, so you can't really blame anyone. It's made almost every episode of this season frustrating to watch, which sucks because you can almost really enjoy each episode, but end up face palming by the end. I hope things get better.

In the first season they didn't reveal that the country/city was run by a hive mind of brains taken from sociopath serial killers.

The violence and lack of concern for life makes sense. They city is run by sociopath murderers. They will kill anything that gets in their path.

[Stro]

This show needs Kogami back.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Kanon

After what we've just witnessed -Sibyl ordering all of the obvious victims to be killed with only Division one noticing what was wrong- that strikes me as a pretty silly argument

What's silly about it? One lone tragedy isn't necessarily good reason for throwing out what's been working pretty well for you all along.

Look, I dislike Sibyl. I've made that very well known, especially back when Season 1 was airing. I agree with you that Sibyl constitutes a very messed-up system. But it's problems are more moral than intellectual in nature.

What we saw in this episode is acceptable losses from Sibyl's perspective. That's the problem. It's that they don't care enough about the individual citizen, only about the mental/social stability of the populace as a whole.

To Sibyl, this is all just something to sweep under the rug. Yes, it's morally abhorrent, it's terrible, but they've been running their society this way for quite some time, and it's been working well enough for them, so there's a lack of impetus for significant change.

What I was explaining was a possible thought process that might have went into expecting Inspectors/Enforcers to rely solely on Dominators for determining criminality. And that thought process makes sense to me, at least in theory. And all Sibyl needs to do is sell people on a theory, an idea, a narrative. Even if it's not entirely true or accurate.

Has there actually ever been a case where Sibyl's judgment was more useful than that of an inspector with common sense? One where the inspector would have made a mistake if not for Sibyl telling him what to do? I honestly can't recall. We keep getting shown how deeply flawed it is since the very first episode of the first season, but we never see its good points. I'm starting to find it harder and harder to believe a system like that would be able to hold up for more than a decade.

Yes, that is a problem with the series as a whole. It's why I wrote back in Season 1 that Psycho-Pass could really have used a lone "filler" episode that would rival K-On for cuteness and happiness and "good vibes".

That being said, once people have been thoroughly kowtowed into accepting/following a specific societal system, it can be very hard to break them out of it. So I can understand why Sibyl manages to hold up.

To bring down Sibyl peacefully, you'd probably need at least one very courageous, charismatic, and mentally stable politician to openly challenge Sibyl and gain the support of the people in pursuing its abolition. But people like that don't come along every day, and they often get assassinated by the powers that be before they can accomplish their goals.

To bring down Sibyl violently, a Makishima/Kamui would have to get very lucky, or an Akane would need to destroy them from within, or a foreign power would need to successfully annex Sibyl Japan. All of these are possible, but Sibyl have managed to dodge these bullets so far.

[Irenesharda]

Ya know? Anyone else wondering what the rest of the world is doing, while Sybil is running an ultra-isolationist Japan (again...)? It would be kind of funny if they had once again taken giant leaps in the advancement of tech and machinery and society, while Japan has been stuck in it's Sybil controlled cocoon.

Also, I know that others have brought this up already, but don't the old Dominators tell anyone using them that the person their pointing it at is a Enforcer and/or Inspector? And if an Enforcer is pointing it at an Inspector, the gun locks on them? So, if I was looking at this guy's clothing who fired the Asaullt Dominator, he's not wearing the Inspector jacket, so I'm guessing he was an Enforcer. Aoyanagi was still recognized by Sybil as an Inspector despite her large CC. That was why her Dominator still registered to her and she could still use it. So, why didn't the new Dominator lock on the Enforcer since he was still pointing at a registered and Sybil-recognized Inspector? Because if the Assault Dominator can't even do what a regular old Dominator can do, what use is it?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Ya know? Anyone else wondering what the rest of the world is doing, while Sybil is running an ultra-isolationist Japan (again...)? It would be kind of funny if they had once again taken giant leaps in the advancement of tech and machinery and society, while Japan has been stuck in it's Sybil controlled cocoon.

Makishima's whole Hyper-Oats destruction plan only makes sense if...

1. At least one major foreign nation does not have a governmental/criminal justice system like Sibyl, and instead embraces a more freedom/liberty-based form of government.

2. That same foreign nation is doing well enough, and is altruistic enough, that it would rush to Sibyl Japan's aid if a massive humanitarian crisis hit Sibyl Japan.

Going by this, my guess is that America is still the land of the free in the world of Psycho-Pass. If so, America probably views Sibyl Japan the way RL Americans tend to view North Korea.

[atua]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

First, there was a guy that tried to charge and attack the old man. He ended up in a pile of blood. That of course has freaked out everyone else from attacking.

Which was bullshit as well. An old man sick enough to need an oxygen tank armed with a short baton shouldn't be able to beat a fit young male that easily. The older man would need some kind of advantage, like superior hand to hand skills or used his robo-dog to attack, and neither of those happened. So unless the old guy was Mr Miyagi, the only reason that scene played out the way it did was for shock value and because the plot demanded it, not because it actually makes any sense.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Makishima's whole Hyper-Oats destruction plan only makes sense if...

1. At least one major foreign nation does not have a governmental/criminal justice system like Sibyl, and instead embraces a more freedom/liberty-based form of government.

2. That same foreign nation is doing well enough, and is altruistic enough, that it would rush to Sibyl Japan's aid if a massive humanitarian crisis hit Sibyl Japan.

Going by this, my guess is that America is still the land of the free in the world of Psycho-Pass. If so, America probably views Sibyl Japan the way RL Americans tend to view North Korea.

It's an interesting idea since most other nations especially the big ones, feel suspicious and a little threatened when another nation, especially another powerful one, completely isolates themselves and doesn't let any people or information in or out. And I had also found it interesting that Sybil could not handle an influx of foreigners coming in since it would "contaminate" all the citizens and it could no longer judge appropriately. Would this mean that Sybil is only attuned to a certain number of people and if it ever shifted by a large margin, it would cause it to crash? Or is it that Sybil is only attuned to a Japanese mindset, and so trying to factor for how people from the outside world would think would be way too much for it?

Honestly, I think that maybe having this happen would be better for Japan. You would think they'd have learned form the last time they were isolationist for so long that the rest of the world had basically passed them by and it took them quite a while to catch up again. I still remember watching The Wind Rises, and they were still complaining about being so behind the rest of the world, and that was in the 40s.

[GDB]

Isn't that supposed to be the premise of the movie or something?

[DMurphy]

You know what's kind of weird about the Japan of Psycho-Pass?

They refer to their criminal investigations unit as the CID. Unless I'm mistaken - and there is a very real possibility that I am - that's an initialism only used in Commonwealth nations, because it's derived from the Metropolitan Police.

But it would make no sense for Japan to be a Commonwealth nation - in real life, but especially not in Psycho-Pass.

[Esclair]

Sybil should just give the reins of the Welfare Department to Akane, everyone else is just incompetent...

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by atua

Which was bullshit as well. An old man sick enough to need an oxygen tank armed with a short baton shouldn't be able to beat a fit young male that easily. The older man would need some kind of advantage, like superior hand to hand skills or used his robo-dog to attack, and neither of those happened. So unless the old guy was Mr Miyagi, the only reason that scene played out the way it did was for shock value and because the plot demanded it, not because it actually makes any sense.

I agree with you there. It is really strange, and they really didn't explain that. The only thing I can think of is that the old man had a weapon, and he was determined to use and fight with it; hence, he had an advantage. The other guy was definitely not used to fighting, and he was running on instinct of fear. I guess the old man was stronger and more determined than we know.

[Golos]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

You know what's kind of weird about the Japan of Psycho-Pass?

They refer to their criminal investigations unit as the CID. Unless I'm mistaken - and there is a very real possibility that I am - that's an initialism only used in Commonwealth nations, because it's derived from the Metropolitan Police.

But it would make no sense for Japan to be a Commonwealth nation - in real life, but especially not in Psycho-Pass.

There is a lot of English in Sibyl's Japan despite its limited ties to the Anglophone world.
I guess they adopted certain terms to make a break with the past.

Originally Posted by atua

Which was bullshit as well. An old man sick enough to need an oxygen tank armed with a short baton shouldn't be able to beat a fit young male that easily. The older man would need some kind of advantage, like superior hand to hand skills or used his robo-dog to attack, and neither of those happened. So unless the old guy was Mr Miyagi, the only reason that scene played out the way it did was for shock value and because the plot demanded it, not because it actually makes any sense.

Was it (just) oxygen? My impression was that he was using drugs that enabled him to overpower the others.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Honestly, I think that maybe having this happen would be better for Japan. You would think they'd have learned form the last time they were isolationist for so long that the rest of the world had basically passed them by and it took them quite a while to catch up again. I still remember watching The Wind Rises, and they were still complaining about being so behind the rest of the world, and that was in the 40s.

You mean just Europe + North America.
Considering how the non-isolationist non-western part of the world (i.e., most of the world) fared, Isolationism was not that bad.