Rozen Maiden ~Träumend~ (Season 2)

[Imaginary_num6er]

Ok, I watched ep10 and I want to say a few things about the plot:

Spoiler for Comments on ep 10:

Ok, I'm sure most of the people here already know the plot of ep10 so, my main argument would be about plot inconsistancies.

Inconsistancy #1:
What's Barasuishou's purpose/aim in the Alice Game?

Obviously, if she's a Rozen Maiden doll then, she should be doing all that she can do to become Alice right? Clearly, from what you could see from ep10, she didn't even move when Sousei's Roza Mystica was floating in the air. From what I heard from a numerous places and 2ch, there could be a number of reasons why this so.

-Reason 1: Although, she specifically states that she's the "The 7th Rozen Maiden doll", she could be lying.
Enju is technically her "father" so, there is no real reason for her to participiate in the Alice Game if she's not really a Rozen Maiden doll.
-Reason 2: Despite having so much power, she already decided that her role in the Alice Game is to speed up its process.
This would make sense if it were direct orders from "Father."

Inconsistancy #2:
Is Enju really "Father?"

Now, this would be a serious plot inconsistancy if this were to be true. If you remember season 1 and in the manga, "Father" is only interested in Alice and would not talk to anyone else. Furthermore, the dolls DO NOT KNOW the face of "Father." Therefore, if Enju was actually "Father" then, this would be inconsistant to the purpose of the Alice Game.

-Reason: As stated previously, the dolls do not really know that Enju is actually their "Father" until,
Bara states: "Father" and this could only mean Enju as Bara's father, not Shinku's.

Inconsistancy #3:
Hina's delayed "retire" from the Alice Game.

Ok, this would probably the main reason why I decided to post this reply on the forum. The main inconsistancy here would be that, if Hina were to "retire" due to losing in season 1, shouldn't Gin also automatically lose also?? Moreover, it is possible that Kanaria could also qualify as "losing" right? Well, this inconsistancy could be "corrected" in like ep12 if Shinku gets Gin's and Kana's Roza Mystica in addition, to the ones Gin already has due to this reason. Obviously, this would suck, but it would be a perfect way to cram everything into the remaining 2 episodes.

Sidenote:
Did Shinku plan this all out from season 1?

This is a hypothesis that I heard from 2ch, but it is possible that Shinku could have planned all of this out:

• If you remember, it was Shinku who told Hina to challange her to the Alice Game in season 1.
• Shinku made Suisei her ally, instead of telling her to go to Sousei's place ealier in season 1.
• In ep1 of RMT, instead of accepting Suigintou's revenge, she was nice to her to avoid uneccessary conflict. The "uneccessary" here is to make Gin less hostile towards her, not to mention, being uncertain that she could win again
• In Traumend, Sousei convinces Shinku to discuss about the 7th doll. Hearing Shinku's reasoning that "she doesn't want to lose any more sisters," Sousei could have just wanted to test Shinku's determination in ep8, and Shinku simply cared less.
• Later, when Kana came out, she didn't take her Roza Mystica since it would cause everyone else to go against her plus, by doing this, Kana is less hostile towards her.
• In ep9, knowing that Gin cannot attack her, it could have been that Shinku didn't care who won, or just wanted Gin to win since she cannot really attack her compaired to Sousei who probably would.
• After seeing how strong Gin became in ep10, Shinku could have reasoned to cut the power for Hina, and blame it on "Father" (Jun could have known no better).
• In ep10, Shinku looks at her watch DESPITE the TV showing their favorite show: Detective KunKun. She should not know when Hina runs out of power unless, she specifically "calculated it into her plans."

Now, if Shinku convinces Suisei to give her Roza Mystica to her in ep11, my hypothesis of Shinku being evil would be pretty much written in stone.


Other Rozen Maiden Trivia:
-JUN KUN = UN + JUNK--->Jun has the power to "un-junk" dolls.
-In the ED, the words: MERCURY LAMPE or ROZENKRISTALL don't show up.
-In the ED, there's a picture of Shinku's balljoints being blurred-->not being a doll anymore?-->Alice
-Unwritten rule that whenever a chacter that plays as the villian does something good, they die immediatly soon after.
-Sousei could possibly be evil also since, in the Drama CD talks about Jun as being: "Does nothing all day, and looks like a failure in life." (「一日中何もしないでゴロゴロしたり本当にダメな人間にしか見えなかった」) Or, in the end of season 1 saying that "he's the worst."「あいつ最低」. Lastly, when they talk about Jun being in the restroom longer than usual, you could take Sousei's "Yeah, its a pretty confortable place in there," as sarcasm to Shinku for mistaking what it is in season1.
-Enju is the name of a tree.
-Jun doesn't know Suigintou came back, even up till ep 10.



Although, there are a lot of predictions of the ending out there, I will mention them another time.

[grey_moon]

Spoiler for my thoughts about ep10:

*sniffle*

What a horrible feeling when one of my favorite character's get killed off, but it is worse when another one dies just the episode before hand. Right now I feel that Rozen is a right bas**rd, but I guess I will just have to wait until I find out more before making any firm judgements about him.

I thought Jun passing Hina over to Tomoe was a very nice gesture, but in terms of the writers building up a sad moment I thought that it was very well done because of the whole Tomoe and Hina relationship.

Come on Jun have your hidden powers awaken and revive Souseiseki and Hina. Then create some Chucky dolls and sik em on that twisted father of theirs...

Farewell Hina, I hope to see you back again before the end of this series...

Originally Posted by Taliesin

Sadly but true there is talk of a hentai version

That is so wrong on so many levels...

[ChainLegacy]

Episode 10 was the most depressing of the two series. It was like watching an innocent little kid die, really sad..

[Thewanderer]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Episode 10 was the most depressing of the two series. It was like watching an innocent little kid die, really sad..

It was pretty sad. Though a lot less violent than how I thought she'd go...

(now for the others... )

[ayyo]

Food for Thought
Rozen Maidens are dolls, yet they can cry, blush and eat food (where does it go? but thats another topic). Yet do they feel 'warm'? I can't believe Jun never commented on this if the dolls feels icy and stiff or warm, especially since he touched/holded a few when they were emotionally stung.

Anyway

Spoiler:

First, who is Laplace? He is certainly not a doll or human, I think. So what is he? A creation of Father? The physical form of Father's will? A creation of Barasuishou? Is he a servant or a has his own free will and purpose? Is he Barasuishou's medium?

Next, what IS Barasuishou's intention/purpose? She seems to be working along with both Laplace and 'Father'. Is Father working with her becase she is the youngest and last who was made after the others seperated from Father, so he wishes to pick her to help to speed up the process? Is she under anyones orders to act that way she does aka not finish them off despite thousands of openings?

Enju or 'Father' commented that imperfect dolls get *smash by a hammer*. So is that why he just wants to use one of the Alice Maidens to quickly speed up the process of getting Alice? Does he even care at all about the other dolls or is he really just a bastard who cries at night because he wants his Alice?

Also this brings up that maybe after 6 failures, he figured he should just create a Rozen Maiden made to hunt the others and not be 'sisterly' like the others. So maybe he is Barasuishou's medium instead? But then this draws back t qestion of what Laplace is.

Ah, and something came to my mind why Father revived Suigintou. Its not because he cares the 'junk' got 'junkd', but because only the winner could take the Roza Mystica and Shinku wasn't about to take hers anytime soon, so he revived in hopes of someone else defeating her, possibly Barasuishou, which would explain why she haven't seriously attacked yet and just uses Suigintou's devoution to beat the other dolls.

And final thought, Jun have kind of been place from the main spotlight for some time now. One way or another, Jun is going to influence the battle again. In fact, Jun might very well be the current incarnation of Father, but thats unlikely and would create massive plot holes, so scratch that.

With only two episodes left, The next battle is going to be the last one since 'Father' is involved, if not, at the most, one more.

My odds are: (for fun XD)
Shinku becoming Alice 1:6
Suigintou becoming Alice 1:30
Barasuishou becoming Alice 1:2
Suiseiseki/Souseiseki/Hina/Kanaria becoming Alice 1:1000
No one becoming Alice 1:3
Alice ends up not being perfect or ideal and Father goes apeshit 1:3
Alice loses her former memories 1:2
Alice becomes the final boss 1:2
Everyone except Barasuishou gets revived at the end 1:3
A Mai-Hime is pulled 1:2


'Father' being real Father 1:2
'Father' being a fake 1:10
Father dies 1:5

Laplace is a part of Father 1:4
Laplace is a part of Barasuishou 1:6
Laplace is made by Father 1:6
Laplace is made by Barasuishou 1:5
Laplace is a seperate entity 1:4

Kanaria backstabbing the others 1:4
Kanaria dying 1:3
Suiseiseki fights Suigintou 1:4
... and loses her Rosa Mystica 1:2
Suiseiseki dying 1:3
Shinku fighting Suigintou 1:1.2
... and loses but doesn't lose her Rosa Mysticas or atleast not her own 1:2
Shinku loses her Rosa Mystica 1:13
... but Jun brings her soul back 1:1.1
Barasuishou fights Suigintou 1:1.2
... and wins her Rosa Mysticas 1:1.2
Souseiseki getting revived without her soul before the end 1:3
Souseiseki getting revived with her soul before the end 1:100

Megu's condition worsen despite getting a Rosa Mystica 1:2
Megu dies 1:5
Tomoe won't appear again until the end where she happily reunites with Hina 1:3
Jun's sister won't appear again until the end 1:4

Jun vs Enju/'Father' 1:1.1
... It will be physical 1:3
... Jun will go philosophic and question Father 1:2
Jun vs Laplace 1:8
Jun takes one for the team and recieves a blow from
...Barasuishou 1:3
...Suigintou 1:2
...it was a near fatal blow 1:2
...it was a fatal blow 1:20
Shinku goes to SEED mode after said blow 1:4
Jun will save the day 1:2

By the end, Jun will regard Rozen Maidens, or specificly Shinku as:
'Demons' 1:3
Just dolls 1:4
More then just dolls, they're YOUR dolls (to Father) 1:4
More then just dolls, they're living beings 1:6
More then just dolls, they're MY dolls 1:12
More then just dolls, they're my friends 1:5
More then just dolls, they're family 1:3
No, more then just friends, they're my 1:15
Realizes his harem consists of his sister and dolls 1:5

Shinku thinks ____ is most important at the end
Her sisters 1:3
Jun 1:6
Father/Being Alice 1:25
Kun-kun 1:1.005

Kun-kun appearing once more before the end 1:1000
Kun-kun appearing at the happy ending 1:1.2

[Guido]

I'm not minding much at all about the last outcome, but I won't stop crying until the very end of Traümend.

Sousei-seki and Hina-Ichigo's sleep 'deaths' broke my heart, but to tell you that I do not hold ill wishes against Suigin-Tou.

She has begun to open the door of her heart to the sick girl, whose name I don't recall. I imagine that she's now attempting to become 'Alice' for that girl's sake in order to heal her with all the seven Rosa Mysticas when gathered, and not anymore for the vain desire to become Father's perfect girl.

Spoiler:

The end of the episode leaves more questions than answers:

1. Is Enju Father? or is he Bara-Suishou's medium?

I disagree with someone else who previously theorized that Bara-Suishou is not a real Rozen Maiden doll.

Anyways, Traümend cannot end in only twelve episodes given the timing. It will need a thirteenth one or else the plot will seem rush and confusing for the remaining episodes.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Imaginary_num6er

Ok, I watched ep10 and I want to say a few things about the plot:

Spoiler for Comments on ep 10:

Ok, I'm sure most of the people here already know the plot of ep10 so, my main argument would be about plot inconsistancies.

Other Rozen Maiden Trivia:
-JUN KUN = UN + JUNK--->Jun has the power to "un-junk" dolls.

Although, there are a lot of predictions of the ending out there, I will mention them another time.

Maybe it's a nasty reply ... but: I cannot accept the chain of associations "JUN KUN -> UN JUNK".

Of course, this looks quite charming, and I was tempted to have a similar thought wrt Rozen Maiden (first season). But alas, such splitting into letters is totally "un-japanese". Besides the pronunciation (Jun-kun does not sound very similar to Junk-un) there is the fact that japanese is based on syllables. Ask japanese people to read "kana" in reverse and they will answer "naka", at least if they are not too much spoiled by so-called western languages. Anyway, it is NOT a japanese pun, but maybe wishful thinking of Rozen Maiden watchers instead. Sort of charming, as I meant above.

Greetings, Gonzo

[Forever]

Episode 10 was definitely a tearjerker..... BUt strange, no tears from me. I felt much sadder with Sousei instead.....

With this much stuff revealed, is there time to settle them all in 2 eps? I think not....

Anyway just to add the odds list

Spoiler:

Jun X Tomoe 1:2
Jun X shinku (doll) 1:4
Jun X shinku (alice) 1:16
Jun X Suiseiseki (doll) 1:10
Jun X Other dolls (doll) 1:500
Jun X other dolls (alice) 1:1500
Jun X megu 1:200
Jun alone 1:3
Jun X father?! 1:250
Jun X his sister?!!! 1:1000

Shinku (alice) X father 1:3
Shinku X Kunkun 1:8968

Baras (alice) X father 1:7

Gin X megu 1:4
Gin X shinku 1:6
Gin X Father 1:8
Gin X shinku 1:18
Gin X Jun?! 1:500

other dolls x father 1:750

father X laplace 1:100

[grey_moon]

Spoiler for Some thoughts on the purpose of the Alice game...:

Probably don't need a spoiler

From what I have interpreted from series one and two, is that the dolls will have to fight and absorb each others Rosa Mysticas to become the perfect being...

Competitions are a fine way to discover who is the best in a group, but it depends on what u are testing. For example if I wanted to find out who was the fastest runner I would hold a sprinting contest. So the Alice game as it has been presented so far, seems to be based on who can kick the most arse... And if it is based just on who can win, I'm guessing extracurricular tactics such as taking out the others mediums would also give them an advantage.

So this Alice seems to be a person who can:

kick arse
put aside their feelings for each other
win at all costs

I dunno if absorbing each others Rosa Mysticas makes them perfect or wotnot, but the Alice game does seem to promote some of the worst aspects of human nature (although they are dolls...)

Maybe its a psychometric test and maybe they will be marked not on if they win, but how they got there...

[BonBon]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Episode 10 was the most depressing of the two series. It was like watching an innocent little kid die, really sad..

That's exactly how I felt! *Weeps*

[Jekyll]

Episode 10 was indeed pretty sad. Actually more so than the last one, for me.

Originally Posted by ayyo

Rozen Maidens are dolls, yet they can cry, blush and eat food (where does it go? but thats another topic). Yet do they feel 'warm'? I can't believe Jun never commented on this if the dolls feels icy and stiff or warm, especially since he touched/holded a few when they were emotionally stung.

My theory on the food stuff is that Rozen Maiden dolls contain some sort of perfect (no waste) matter to energy converter. This energy is then used for powering conventional movement (reducing the need to be rewinded and usage of the medium's power) and also for producing heat, which leads to the temperature part.
In episode two of the first season, Shinku told Jun to close the windows because it was chilly. This allows for the assumption that the dolls prefer (or even need to function correctly) a certain temperature. Thus, if they did not produce (and thus radiate) heat on their own, they would likely need a certain "heat up" period of lying in the sun, like some cold-blooded animals do. As such a thing was never mentioned and would be pretty inappropriate, it can be deduced that Rozen Maiden dolls are indeed 'warm'.
As for the stiffness, I'm not sure whether it might be worth mentioning, that (in episode one of the first season) Jun commented on Shinku being soft, while touching her face.

Spoiler:

Barasuishou becoming Alice 1:2

But has not the balance of power shifted against her? Both Shinku and Suigintou acquired an additional Rosa Mystica and it seems like an additional Rosa Mystica means additional power.

[JHawkNH]

****Very Wild Prediction Ahead****

1. Shinku Becomes Alice.

2. We find out that there have been Many Alice Games. (I am wondering if the memories of Suigintou vs Shinku during what looked like WW2, the episode that Suigintou was revived, were actual memories from a past Alice game that had been erased/blocked from their memories.)

3. Alice becomes the partner/wife of the current incarnation of Father. (In this case Jun. The father were saw in ep 10 was the previous reicaration of Father)

4. Alice gives the new father(Jun) the power to revive all the Rozen Maidens.

5. Alice is human and when see passes away in the future, all the dolls lose their memories again, and the Alice game starts all over again.


Just some wild seculation, but it would make for an interesting twist.

P.S. Have the creators stated that there would be only 12 eps. everyone seems to assume that there will only be 12 because there was only 12 last season. Why couldn't they do the standard 13?

[PastPrime]

It looked to me like, in episode 10, the doll maker was about to tell Jun how to bring the souls back just before they switched scenes. So Jun may know how to bring them back now. As for Alice, I think that they are setting it up for Suigintou to be Alice by giving her something to fight for other than herself.

[gonzo]

Some additional thoughts about becoming Alice:

When Shinku had her arm torn off by Suigintou she said she could not become Alice anymore, because from that moment on she was a defective doll ("junk").

Therefore, any doll having defects will never become Alice. This rules out Barasuishou. She has at least a defective eye (whatever may be covered by the eyepatch). The eyes of the Seki-Twins are differently coloured, that's far from being perfect - ruled out. Hina Ichigo and Kanaria? Too childish to become Alice. Remain: Shinku and Suigintou. Is Gin now a complete doll? And if she is, why has she been completed? Such kind of perfection would then be possible for each of the dolls, sort of reanimation?

Shinku is the only doll, who nearly always stays calm, she knows nearly all about the Alice Game, and she has a watch. Why? The only other one with a conscienceness of time seems to be Gin.

Another thought about Shinku. In the first season there was a development. Jun and Shinku both became more human. Jun, because he began to leave his hikikomori-hermitage, and Shinku showing some emotions. There had even been a little touch of erotic tension between the two. In the second season there seems to be nearly no active participation of Jun, and Shinku is more or less sitting on a fence. Taking over the Roza Mystica she looked quite cold. What has happened to Shinku??

Besides that there are lots of hints pointing to some kind of reincarnation ...

Enju being "Father" is annoying. It does not fit into the gothic, i.e. victorian, style of the first scenes. And it does not fit to the WW2 memories. He is too young to have made the dolls. Again remaining: Laplace. What is the concept behind the role of Laplace? Should he be the "deus ex machina"-explanation for that huge heap of inconstiencies? Again annoying? I am not sure.

IMHO, those two final eps have to be stuffed with possible and impossible acts and explanations.

All we can do is sit and wait.

[Swann]

Finally, I have given up peeping and decided to post – !

Just thought I would add my predictions.

This won't be another Mai HiME (or I guess in way it will be). Come the end of eps12 all dolls will be alive. It was said that as long as a doll is loved it never dies and this series has made quite an effort in showing that every doll has the love and need of its master, except perhaps Barasuishou. The twist will be in how it happen: lets say a combination of Shinku giving up the Alice choice and Jun's magic fingers. Oh, at some point Suigin will lose a fight because she couldn't use her medium's powers (this scene is definitely coming if only because of how often it was pointed out that her master could die.)

Still don't like that they're closing this up with only two more episodes. Here's hoping for more.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Swann

Finally, I have given up peeping and decided to post – !

It was said that as long as a doll is loved it never dies and this series has made quite an effort in showing that every doll has the love and need of its master, except perhaps Barasuishou. The twist will be in how it happen: lets say a combination of Shinku giving up the Alice choice and Jun's magic fingers. Oh, at some point Suigin will lose a fight because she couldn't use her medium's powers (this scene is definitely coming if only because of how often it was pointed out that her master could die.)

Still don't like that they're closing this up with only two more episodes. Here's hoping for more.

Nice ideas! Especially wrt the concept of love (it held for the clown in season 1). Shinku giving up is charming to.

Ok, there might be no twist anymore. But what should additional eps be good for? Season 3? Just now I imagine a new story with a disppointed Enju and that Laplace-Bunny. Laplace's revenge or: How Rozen Maiden saved the world.

If only my Japanese could be alive again! For now it is in Hina's state. I do like the subs, but they are of course coarse - and a japanese word has the property of being similar to a chamaeleon: It changes colour, flavour, taste and meaning according to the context. I am pondering over that translated word "soft" describing the surface of the dolls. Maybe it has the meaning of "soft AND warm". I cannot decide, because upto now I could not understand the word Jun used in ep1 of season 1 ... In Petopeto-san there had been a similar translation; but Petopeto is by far more difficult as every figure has its own dialect.

oyasuminanou.

[kitsura]

They should have just let Suigintou died at the end of episode 1 and left it as that. Pandering to fans has never turned out well in the end. Just look at what happened to Evangelion and Gundam Shit...oops I mean Seed Destiny after the creators decided to give in to fan feedback. My only prediction for the series is that it will all be revealed in episode 12 with hints in episode 11. Just by going to the official website and reading the super vague summary for episode 11 I can guess something spoilerish must be up (death of another doll).

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by kitsura

They should have just let Suigintou died at the end of episode 1 and left it as that. Pandering to fans has never turned out well in the end. Just look at what happened to Evangelion and Gundam Shit...oops I mean Seed Destiny after the creators decided to give in to fan feedback. My only prediction for the series is that it will all be revealed in episode 12 with hints in episode 11. Just by going to the official website and reading the super vague summary for episode 11 I can guess something spoilerish must be up (death of another doll).

Suigintou was suppose to be alive in the manga. So if they want to truer to the manga then they do need suigintou back.

[kitsura]

But since the anime doesn't really follow the manga storyline (Souseiseki is evil in the manga) so its safe to say that the anime writers can do whatever they want.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Quite a nice episode, but a little too rushed. Too many revelations crammed into one episode (one flaw of many animes in my opinion). The drama wasn't too bad in episode 10 though. It was rather sad that Hina Ichigo left like that with such a scene...

Oh another note, shock after shock...First, we find out that the bespectacled man is Laplace, and suddenly we find out Enju is Father...And why exactly is he sorta on Barashuisho's and Laplace's side? What kind of conspiracy fo they have? Three more episodes...So I would expect explanations to fly in fast and hard, though the next episode looks more like a Maiden battle. While it seems impossible for Enju to seem to be Father due to the possible time lapse, it could be possible that he might be the descendant of the first 'Father' instead. It's a wild guess, but hey, at least it's speculation.