(L) Phantom ~Requiem for the Phantom~ (Nitroplus & Bee Train)

[telamont]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Exactly. For me, this series has always being about a journey, a journey to a normal life, to the "place" you belong to. In chapter one, Reiji longs to go back to his normal life, and makes Elen realize that she was longing for it too (that really faint memory of her homeland that she still had, symbolizes that). In chapter 2, Cal makes Reiji a bit closer to a normal life, but he's still far from it. Now in chapter 3, he's almost there, and I think the journey is to end with Elen. Let's think about it, even if Cal forgives Reiji, and goes with him, I don't see her as a path that would lead Reiji to a normal life, because she still would be an assassin, she likes that. But Elen, trough her wish for her own place, can be a path for Reiji to finally get there. That's why I think the series is going to end with them getting to Elen's homeland, which would symbolize they're finally free.

I see. That's certainly a beautiful interpretation. I'll be sure to keep it in mind, no matter what ending we get. But then, finding Ellen's home land and helping her regain herself would be a major, not minor plot point. In that case I believe that some of the plot threads in chapter 3 should have been cut (like Cal staying dead for an example, or maybe Inferno not going after them) to make room for that happening, on screen. I really hope that if that's what they're going with, then we don't just get that "nice little line" during the epilogue. Would be really poor execution in my opinion.

Me, I see the series as a variation of the classical "coming of age" story. Boy gets yanked out of his comfortable life. Boy gets thrown into a cruel uncaring world. Boy makes hard choices, grows, and then must learn to live with his choices. So therefore, I have no problem with him going with Cal and continuing on being an assassin, as long as it's on his own terms, terms that he can be comfortable with. Like it or not, Reiji is now one of the world's premier killers. He kills people without blinking. He's good at what he does. He suffered and bled for his skills. The assassin Zwei of today is not the innocent boy Reiji of the past. That will not change no matter how he much he wishes otherwise. He must learn to come to terms with that fact.

So yea, if he ends up with Ellen, we can certainly see it as happy end. Like I've said, it's certainly a beautiful and romantic interpretation. But look at it another way, all that suffering, all the people he's killed, if he just goes back to a normal life, it can also be seen as running away. His past four-five years would be completely negated. He'd be back to square one. And whereas his peers would have used those years to learn useful life skills, he only has assassin skills he can't use. He'd basically be reduced from the Phantom to being a 20 year old trying to go through life with the life skills of a 16 year old. And further more, his killer instincts and the blood on his hands won't ever go away. I could even go so far as to say that any "normal" life he tries to live would ultimately end up being a sham.

So you see, there's a flip side to everything no? I guess that's why life is so interesting

[telamont]

Originally Posted by orion

Cal in reality would be called worse things than psycho in 2009. She does bear ultimate responsibility for her situation imo. She's almost considered an emancipated minor in fact. As I stated, this game was done in a kinder, gentler time.

But like I said, the question of what Scythe Master has done to her, and how much control he had over her development (Some? None? A lot? Absolute?) makes this a very murky issue. I think we can at least agree on this simple statement: People get angry and hurt when they're abandoned by someone they love. And then they move on, true. Problem with Cal is that Scythe Master was there to screw with her mind at the worst possible moment. How would she have turned out if he wasn't there? The world will never know.

Let's just say that she's as responsible for her current situation as Reiji and Ellen and leave it at that shall we? Different methodology true, but same Scythe Master.

[orion]

Originally Posted by telamont

So yea, if he ends up with Ellen, we can certainly see it as happy end. Like I've said, it's certainly a beautiful and romantic interpretation. But look at it another way, all that suffering, all the people he's killed, if he just goes back to a normal life, it can also be seen as running away. His past four-five years would be completely negated. He'd be back to square one. And whereas his peers would have used those years to learn useful life skills, he only has assassin skills he can't use. He'd basically be reduced from the Phantom to being a 20 year old trying to go through life with the life skills of a 16 year old. And further more, his killer instincts and the blood on his hands won't ever go away. I could even go so far as to say that any "normal" life he tries to live would ultimately end up being a sham.

So you see, there's a flip side to everything no? I guess that's why life is so interesting

Except...

That we do similar things in real life all the time.

We send teens and twentysomethings off to war. They shoot, maim and kill other people and yet come back to regular civilian life. People train to be police officers. They shoot and sometimes kill people in the line of duty and go home to a regular life. So there is a precedence.

And he only needs to get a GED. He prob has more life survival skills than a normal 20 yo.

Originally Posted by telamont

.

Let's just say that she's as responsible for her current situation as Reiji and Ellen and leave it at that shall we? Different methodology true, but same Scythe Master.

Works for me as Elen and Reiji have moved forward and attempted a normal existence while Cal didn't. Reiji and Elen being more responsible of the 3.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by telamont

So you see, there's a flip side to everything no? I guess that's why life is so interesting

I think we can agree on this one.

Anyway, here's looking forwards to the next episode. It'll be cool to see Elen and Cal kick the crap out of each other for a while.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by orion

Except...

That we do similar things in real life all the time.

We send teens and twentysomethings off to war. They shoot, maim and kill other people and yet come back to regular civilian life. People train to be police officers. They shoot and sometimes kill people in the line of duty and go home to a regular life. So there is a precedence.

I think if you ask any normal person if there's a difference between assassins, officers, and soldiers, they'd tell you "Yes."

[orion]

Originally Posted by GDB

I think if you ask any normal person if there's a difference between assassins, officers, and soldiers, they'd tell you "Yes."

Possibly but there isn't an official assassin psych makeup. All 3 are killing people for dfferent reasons and have to overcome the fact that they have to kill. All 3 are paid for their services. All 3 go home to regular lives after a day's work so to speak. (Of course, "home" for the solder is back to camp.) It's all a matter of whether it's legal or illegal imo.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by orion

Possibly but there isn't an official assassin psych makeup. All 3 are killing people for dfferent reasons and have to overcome the fact that they have to kill. All 3 are paid for their services. All 3 go home to regular lives after a day's work so to speak. It's all a matter of whether it's legal or illegal imo.

Except officers protect people, soldiers protect ideals, and assassins just do it for themselves.

[orion]

Originally Posted by GDB

Except officers protect people, soldiers protect ideals, and assassins just do it for themselves.

As I said, legal (sanctioned by your government) or illegal. Assassins are hired by others. They are "protecting" a private entities ideals, etc. that are not sanctioned by your government. Private entities can not have armies and snipers at their beck and call. Your government can.

It's a matter of perspective.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by GDB

Except officers protect people, soldiers protect ideals, and assassins just do it for themselves.

Does that really matter anyway? I think it's all about how much will do you have to move on. Reiji and Elen have proved they do want to move on, they want to live normal lifes. Now we have to see if they can follow through on it.

That's all there is to it imo.

[telamont]

Originally Posted by orion

Except...

That we do similar things in real life all the time.

We send teens and twentysomethings off to war. They shoot, maim and kill other people and yet come back to regular civilian life. People train to be police officers. They shoot and sometimes kill people in the line of duty and go home to a regular life.

And he only needs to get a GED. He prob has more life survival skills than a normal 20 yo.



Works for me as Elen and Reiji have moved forward and attempted a normal existence while Cal didn't.

Sure, I'm not saying that they absolutely can't leave it all behind them, hence my praise of the alternate interpretation. But there's no guarantee that they will either.

IRL, people get sent to war all the time, true, and most of them go back to normal civilian life, true. But despite the fact that their killings were government sanctioned, and that they have "patriotism" and "ideals" to allay their guilt, many of them do end up either in the mental hospital or begging on the street, also true.

Reiji does not have those luxuries. Besides, mostly it's the average joes who go back to civilian life, the top dogs would likely stay in the force and try climbing the ranks, maybe even to general one day. It is a waste if Reiji just throws away all the hax skills that he earned.

[orion]

Originally Posted by telamont

Sure, I'm not saying that they absolutely can't leave it all behind them, hence my praise of the alternate interpretation. But there's no guarantee that they will either.

IRL, people get sent to war all the time, true, and most of them go back to normal civilian life, true. But despite the fact that their killings were government sanctioned, and they have "patriotism" to allay their guilt, many of them do end up in either in the mental hospital or begging on the street, also true. Reiji does not have those luxuries. Besides, mostly it's the average joes who go back to civilian life, the top dogs would likely stay in the force and try climbing the ranks, maybe even to general one day. It's a waste if Reiji just throws way all the hax skills that he earned.

But that just goes back to what is Reiji's definition of "happiness". If his happiness is him being an assassin, then it is a waste. If not, then it is not a waste. Reiji thru out this series has attempted to find happiness and then give up midway. Hopefully since we are close to the end, he has more resolve now. He's had a taste of happiness and now knows what's at stake.

Career soldiers are that. There are families of police officers and soldiers. That's what makes them happy. Then there's the person that's there because of the draft or wanting their college tuition paid. They just go in it for the short term and leave when their tour is done. Patriotism only goes so far to alleviate stress.

Think of it as him switching fields. People do radical job switches a lot. If one job is not making you happy, you move on to something else.

[telamont]

Originally Posted by orion

But that just goes back to what is Reiji's definition of "happiness". If his happiness is him being an assassin, then it is a waste. If not, then it is not a waste.

Career soldiers are that. There are families of police officers and soldiers. That's what makes them happy. Then there's the person that's there because of the draft or wanting their college tuition paid. They just go in it for the short term and leave when their tour is done. Patriotism only goes so far to alleviate stress.

Think of it as him switching fields. People do radical job switches a lot. If one job is not making you happy, you move on to something else.

I respectfully disagree. It's four of the best years of his life, where a human being's ability to learn new things is at its height. To throw them all away, no matter how you look at it is a waste.

And before you bring in your IRL argument... Stupid teens do waste away their life all the time, and people do get stuck in unsatisfying jobs. And then they move on. That doesn't mean though that when they look back, they'll go "Oh, those years of my life weren't a waste, if I had a chance to do everything over, I wouldn't change a thing "

So yeah, it's certainly possible for Reiji to leave everything behind him, I won't deny that. But if we look at Phantom as a coming of age story, then we've basically spent time watching a guy wasting away the best years of his life. If he ends up living a normal life, then might as well have let him stay in school.

Like I said so many times, it's all in how you interpret the story.

[telamont]

Originally Posted by orion

Works for me as Elen and Reiji have moved forward and attempted a normal existence while Cal didn't. Reiji and Elen being more responsible of the 3.

"Normal" is overrated. My only real problem with Cal is her unjustified grudge. But we can explain that away with Scythe Master. If she wants to have fun dueling the mafia, and if that's what makes her happy, then more power to her. Like you said, career soldier, career assassins, they all kill. Until I see Cal happily killing innocent civilians, I don't really care. She's Inferno's top assassin, and at least she has her own will, she can probably pick her jobs at this point. It's highly unlikely they'll send Phantom after Joe Schmoe off the streets anyway.

"Live fast, die young" is also a way of life after all.

Hmm... wonder if my attitude is little too easy going.

[Zwei]

I'm surprised this series is being adapated into a manga by a hentai yaoi-shotacon artist, T_T

[evil-samurai]

Originally Posted by telamont

then we've basically spent time watching a guy wasting away the best years of his life. If he ends up living a normal life, then might as well have let him stay in school.

Reiji does not have those luxuries. Besides, mostly it's the average joes who go back to civilian life, the top dogs would likely stay in the force and try climbing the ranks, maybe even to general one day. It is a waste if Reiji just throws away all the hax skills that he earned.

Whatever Reiji decides to do, His former life as a Phantom would not simply be a 'waste' The Past makes the Present. He can go onto living a normal life and these skills can be used for the rest of his life, just one of many examples... he can Protect people important to him (Think Kenshin!)

Sure he wont get the 'most' out of his skills with a normal life, but that hardly should be considered a waste of his life. Thats being quite harsh.

Originally Posted by Zwei

I'm surprised this series is being adapated into a manga by a hentai yaoi-shotacon artist, T_T

So its possable we are going to have Scythe x Reiji Scenes.... *Shivers* Though Reiji is no shota he is the closest there is and fits in there with Scythe on the first tag..

That reminds me.. some images I saw on the official anime Phantom site one day.

Spoiler for Couple:

I could see it, mabye happen.. but what about this... Scary..

Spoiler for Scythe...:

[Mizuno]

Anyone listened to the full version of ED2? I have to say the TV version is much better...

[orion]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

Well, seeing that we are talking a lot about the goals of the storyline and character, I guess I can post what I believe are the goals, what is needed to accomplish them and what are the problems with them (these are all MY opinions of course and no doubt others have completely different opinions and will disagree with me).

Spoiler for Saving space:

Elen's greatest goals

1. Recovering the lost memories - no doubt, this is one of her goals and she believes that it might allow her to become a normal person again. This is not essential to becoming Elen as Elen and the girl before Ein could be considered to be different people.


2. Become Elen - The moment Reiji gave her the name Elen, this became one of her goals. If she can become a person able to stand on her own rather then depend on others and is able to ignore what her inner Ein says and do what she WANTS rather then what Ein thinks is the best (for example, Elen would probably not even think about using Mio to manipulate Inferno as Mio is her friend and she would not want to use her like that as chances exict that Mio might be hurt... however, Ein would hatch that plan if that would serve her goals).
Goal #1 is not required for this to be accomplished, IMO, as Elen and the girl before Ein might be different people. If the old personaity is much different from Elen, then accomplishing both goals might end up in some problems (peronality split, one personality killing the another...). Of course, nothing might happen as well if both goals are accomplished.

Both goals will allow her to become a person again thus accomplishing either one of them would be an equal success IMO. The greatest difference might be that to accomplish goal #2, she needs to get rid of Ein persona in order to succed (check goal #3 bellow).


3. Purification of her soul - one of the reasons Elen decided to become a Christian is because Christianity is a belief that redemption is possible. Since she murdered a lot of people as Ein, she now tries to redeem herself by praying, confessing and staying clean as she calls herself Elen. If she doesn't succed in this goal, I am not sure she can fully succed (partialy yes, fully no) in accomplishing goal #2 as she, I believe, decided herself that Elen MUST be pure or else Ein will stay a part of her being.
Killing to protect herself from a direct threat or to protect someone else from a direct threat is acceptable as not doing that will either mean MURDERING herself or those she could have protected. While still a sin, it is easy to forgive.
However, if she ever considers to have failed in this goal (murdering someone after deciding to no longer be Ein), Ein will forever stay a part of her, no matter what happens later. Part of her will probably always greately regret for not succeding in this goal no matter how happy she is at the same time. After all, going to Heaven is probably something she really, really wants (else she would not pray so much and try to get rid of Ein persona as Ein persona could prove useful as well, even in running away from her old life).


4. Protecting Reiji and take care he is happy- It is natural that Elen would want to protect this man who risks his life in order for her to become Elen, this man who protects her and the main she might love. The catch is tough: can she protect him while managing to accomplish goal #3? In order to ensure that he is safe and happy, she might need ending up murdering someone as Elen and failing the goal #3.
However, she does not believe that she is the only one who is able to accomplish this goal. If Cal's goal #2 is accomplished, this goal can also be accomplished without her fearing that she would need to break goal #3. If she helps Cal and Reiji reconcile, then she would consider this goal accomplished as Cal would also be there to continue this goal.


5. Romance with Reiji - not actually her goal, but goal of the ReijixElen pairing fans. It means, obviously, ending in a romantic relationship with Reiji. Of course, this means that goal #4 would be accomplished.
While many would consider them just ending in a romantic relationship a success, I myself would prefer if Elen, after accomplishing goal #2 or/and #1, would be the one who makes the first move. If Reiji makes the first move before Ein fully becomes Elen or gets her memories and old personality back, then it would leave me with suspicions that Elen answered yes because to Ein he is a replacement for Scyhte. While I don't doubt that she would say yes either way, I simply want her to be the one who makes the first move... for Elen to make the first move and prove that she, as Elen, an fully independent woman, and not as Reij's Ein, wants such relationship.
However, we have seen no signs that she wants to accomplish this goal so much as other goals (else she might have entered the romantic relationship already) thus I don't consider it as essential as other goals.


6. Settling with Reiji - mostly a goal of paring fans again, tough this one can be argued as she herself mentioned that she would want to find a normal life for them (goal #5 not required, settling with him can be as his sister as well). To receive this goal, it would mean accomplishing goal #4 by herself and this risks failing goal #3 (as they will need to run away from Inferno a bit more thus she might end up making a great sin) and risk not completely succeding in goal #2 (if the goals #3 fails, goal #2 can not be fully accomplished).
Also, keep in mind that this goal COULD be impossible to accomplish. Inferno might end up finding them again and forcing them to run away again, thus making them suffer as they lost normal life they thought to have found.


As you can see, I find Elen and her goals to be quite complex.


Cal's greatest goals
1. Riding herself of Drei persona and hatred that creates it - in episode 16, we have found out what Cal's opinions about assasins are and what she believes is a difference between a good and an bad (or evil) assasin. Now look at what Drei is: quite possibly the very opposite of what she wanted to be.
I can't talk much for now (as anime still didn't get far enough), but it should be obvious already that this is one of goals concerning her.


2. Reconcilation with Reiji - another goal concerning her, can probably be accomplished only after fully accomplishing goal #1 and will make Elen's goal #5 unaccomplishable (as reconcilation with Reiji would mean restoring the old relationship and keeping old promises). However, to Cal romance with Reiji seems to be more important then it does to Elen.


3. Become an (not immoral) assasin - there are few reasons why she wants this. One is that civilians seemed to respect the powerful assasin that kills members of gangs and mafia's (better shown in the VN where some civilians go so far that they belive that Phantom works for CIA and fights crime (nobody knows that Inferno might even exist)) and Cal was one of them. After meeting the Phantom, she seems to have acquired an even greater respect for Phantom and now wants to be like that: an assasin that kills ONLY members of mafia, gangs and other evil people and would not harm innocents.
Other reason seems to be the fact hat she hates the assasin who caused Judy's death, either killing her himself or not being efficient enough to get rid of the targets quickly. Thus, she seems to want to be an assasin that people would hire to do a good job rather then some other less skilled assasin or send some brutes who might end up harming others as well. If they hire her and she is skilled enough, she believes that she may take care that no innocents are harmed.
Also, keep in mind that her normal life was not nice towards her and that she lived at the bottom. By becoming an assasin, she loses nothing but gains a lot thus she has no reason to hate the profession like Elen and Reiji who were forced to leave their old lives and do what they don't want to do. Thus, for her being an assasin is not something bad.

Of course, to accomplish this goal, goal #1 would need to be at least partialy accomplished as Drei is not the type of assasin she wanted to be but which she (probably thanks to Scyhte) ended up becoming. If goal #2 is accomplished, then Reiji would be the one who decides if they would continue being assasins (if they reconcile and he wants a normal life, she would most probably accept his decision. However, she would probably annoy him from time to time as she did in season 2, but still she would not force him).

Elen goal 1 hasn't been mentioned in the anime. It's a VN thing that's being alluded to by the ED song imo. Elen goal 5 has been hinted at in the anime at least 3 times so far with the latest in ep. 20. No sister hugs her brother like that (too close for too long) and her reaction when Mio tried to confess practically nails it. Elen's feelings are there but they're the anime Asian ones like Mio and not the in your face American obsession type like Cal. On a certain level Reiji prob "gets it" as he did get jealous when his friend got to sit beside her at lunch and then you had the comments about him chasing off the Elen suitors and being called a siscon. *I'm not mentioning the VN part as it hasn't been shown in the anime and prob won't.*

Elen's sisterly feeling for Reiji (Elen goal 6) aren't very reflective of females imo. Girls aren't "wired" to think that way at her age for the most part imo. It's prob illustrating an inability to commit for whatever reason imo. Thankfully, not seen in the anime from my perspective. She is able to commit but allows Reiji to make the choice. She needs to be more aggressive in the way that she verbalizes it as some guys can be clueless or have a commitment problem (Reiji) imo.

We won't know what Drei's goals are until she says them in the next episode. Goals are flexible things and her assassin viewpoint may have changed in 2 years. That's a VN assessment of Drei's goals you've written as none have been mentioned in the anime besides settling things with Elen and Reiji.

Originally Posted by evil-samurai

That reminds me.. some images I saw on the official anime Phantom site one day.

Spoiler for Couple:

That's the first thing I thought when I saw the bathtub scene.

Add another dimension on why Claudia got hunted the way she did. Mr. McGuire wanted personal vengeance.

[Nayrael]

We won't know what Drei's goals are until she says them in the next episode. Goals are flexible things and her assassin viewpoint may have changed in 2 years. That's a VN assessment of Drei's goals you've written as none have been mentioned in the anime besides settling things with Elen and Reiji.

Nope the assestment of goals are written by the anime perspective. Goal 1 is connected with her and is obvious (she fired a bullet in middle of the street on a bright day, killed one of her comrades in the reastaurant, tortured the Chinese guy and Scyhte already mentioned that Cal would start a gunfight in school and that she is fueled with hatred), goal 2 is obvious and goal 3 is there since ep16.

[orion]

Nothing is obvious in a 2 year span. As I mentioned previously, goals change. It's a part of maturing and living circumstances. A sheltered 14 yo will not have the same goals as an independent 16 yo imo. Drei has to reinterate the Cal goals for it to be interpreted as being the same imo.

[Nayrael]

Nothing is obvious in a 2 year span. As I mentioned previously, goals change. It's a part of maturing. A sheltered 14 yo will not have the same goals as an independent 16 yo imo. Drei has to reinterate the Cal goals for it to be interpreted as being the same imo.

Which is just why I have written "goal concerning her" there rather then "her goal", not to mention that I do consider her to have been mentaly mature enough while she was 14 years old, altough the playful attitude (which I consider to be part of her personality rather then effect of age) made her seem childier. If anything has changed, that was with Scyhte's influence. It is how I inrepreted it, even when I was at this point in the VN first time (concerning Drei/Cal, info is the same in anime and novel). The post would have been much larger if I took info from the VN.

Tough I do not feel discussing this for long so I will put a spoiler tag if that brings peace to you.