Madoka Magica - Episode 09 Discussion / Poll

[Edict]

Originally Posted by Dawnbringerz"

This is a problem with the English word "understand" -- it has more than one meaning.

it is the former definition which is required and decisive in determining Kyubei's accountability. If it is aware of significance whilst selectively omitting relevant information as necessarily determined in a human system then its intent is to deceive. Kyubei does not understand emotions through subjective experience yet is knowledgeable of the relevance of emotions as they both contribute to and constitute our sense (some might say more expansive) of meaning. Actively using this knowledge in a deliberate manner to compel and mislead may suffice to qualify Kyubei's obfuscated meaning.

[Endscape]

This episode gets a perfect 10 from me. Maybe I drank too much coffee yesterday, but this episode struck me as both profoundly depressing, profoundly uplifting and entirely emotional.

It's funny that even in such a dark series, this episode still epitomizes the fact that we see in many magical girl shows: that optimism beasts cynicism.

Kyouko and Sayaka's cynicism may have gotten them killed, but Sayaka was at least able to help Kamijou, even if he didn't return her feelings and for a short time, she was able to protect other people. Kyouko was at least able to die as herself, not a witch and died helping her friend, something I can truly respect.

On the other hand, Homura's cold and efficient cynicism ultimately led nowhere, and changed nothing for the better, since despite her efforts Madoka is now nearly 100% sure to contract with QB. So really, optimism is better, in a way, or maybe I'm giving Urobuchi too much credit

As for Qb's little explanation, I won't go into whether or not he's telling the truth, though sacrificing human lives to stave off the heat death of the universe, something that won't happen for millions of years, at least is something i can't agree with.

The fact that it's suddenly sci-fi, well I'm reminded of Clarke's Third Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

So really, it's all the same.

I'm really interested to see what Homura is going to do next. She's hit almost rock bottom, only place to go is up.

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

i want to see what that black cat's relevance is. Maybe he's the real wishmaker in here,making MGs w/o the risk of being witches. tHis would only mean that QB is making his 'own version' of turning girls into MG. well, a despicable version,i must say.XD

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by garbage

why just girls. mmm no answer for that one yet , tho i'll go with the reasoning that adults just wont take no crap from QB so he only goes for young gullible targets.

I believe it was stated in this episode that teenage girls have the greatest amount of emotional energy (mood swings) so they make a better source of power.

[Sekishi]

Originally Posted by scr

... There is this drug (forgot the name) that causes fetus to be born with no arms, and instead their fingers extends from where arms should extends from the body. And this drug was an accepted treatment (for the disease it's supposed to combat) for pregnant women, for many, many years before the DEA (and the rest of the world) figured it out and ban it. *shudders*

The drug is Contergan, chemical name Thalidomide, which was the cause for the Contergan scandal.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

As for whether Kyubey is "evil", drop it. There are too many different opinions on what determines "evil," whether it is ultimately the action or intention, or if it is the intention, whether the person is aware that what he is doing is wrong but still does it anyway. Unless a consensus on what makes a character "evil" is reached, this debate will never come to an end.

Agreed up to every single letter. THANK YOU!

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by alu546

Me and a friend were having a discussionon how this series could be a preview for another season, as homura may need to change dimensions again. With everyne dead now, iit doesnt seem like homura will be able to accomplish her main objective in this tmeline.


That and there are multiple mangas being released that operate on the same mythos with different characters.

so Shaft will do a total of 8 season Madoka and Homura will do this a total of 15,531 times?

[ruurguy]

Originally Posted by scr

Yes, he _is_ Evil because he is morally bankrupt, and he is morally bankrupt because (amongst other things) he is amoral and is a sociopath.

Seriously, at this point I dont like attacking or defending arguments about whether QB is Evil or just plain alien in morality (or Good all along). The last time I participated in this kind of discussion was in the end of 2008 when Ga-Rei -Zero- aired. Let's just say that things weren't civil, and there was no conclusion. The closest thing we had to a conclusion was that the character we discussed need to be stopped, that's all.


>It is NOT neat and clean
I never stated anywhere that things were, are, or will ever be neat and clean. You provided examples, and I don't (more like, cant) deny those examples. Those are the mess. There is this drug (forgot the name) that causes fetus to be born with no arms, and instead their fingers extends from where arms should extends from the body. And this drug was an accepted treatment (for the disease it's supposed to combat) for pregnant women, for many, many years before the DEA (and the rest of the world) figured it out and ban it. *shudders*

>[b]You seem to be a bit idealistic in thinking[b]
I'm not "a bit idealistic". I'm "idealistic, and obnoxiously so". But maybe it's because I'm outside the medical world. I'm more or less an engineer, and I know how the business practices of major corporations harm the interest of the public. As in, "we should get X and Y tech now, but due to copyrights/business model/the cartels/interests of powerful external parties, we wont see them anytime soon".

The Free Software Movement is there to erode this monopoly of knowledge, btw. Are they idealistic? Yes they are. Do they succeed? Let's just say that there are results. If no one were idealistic, the intarwebz won't thrive as much as it's now, since there would have been corporate assholes who hog the HTTP server technology and wall themselves behind copyright laws.


>Is this "wrong"?
I believe so. But instead of that being "necessary evil", I prefer to call it "the lesser of two evils". Maybe I should rant about "what measure is a sentience" and the moral implications/consequences of the various valid measures, but to me the final answer is "sacrifice 1000+ mouse to save the Littlest Cancer Patient".

But... we don't need to continue sacrificing 1000+ mouse. Breakthroughs in human Lord genome mapping will allow us to study how diseases interact with the human body without actually screwing the human body itself, and completely synthesis new treatments from the ground up ("medicine calculus") instead of "Mouse A take X dose of experimental Medicine J, Mouse B take X+0.01 dose, Mouse C take X-0.02 dose. See which one survives, if any". It wont be simple, but the road is there.

Oh, and Madoka and co aren't mouse, obviously.


IANADoctor, I really should not be giving opinions on this. At the very least, I say that it should be treated on a case-by-case basis, in which everyone concerned should be deeply involved: the doctors, the patient, the patient's relatives, etc.


>but if you think it is perfect and tested drugs never have issues you are sorely mistaken
I never say that drugs are invariably "perfect" and immaculately pass all "tests", let alone "perfect and tested for every possible situation that will ever happen in the known and unknown universe". Why do you keep equating me for some kind of Sayaka-esque Wide Eyed Idealist?


>you must have reason for bringing in plurality
Yes, but what I see is that you keep defending QB by bringing in arguments that are even harder to prove or disprove than what QB himself was presenting . TVTropes call it "Voodoo Shark".

Don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm attacking you(r intellect). Other than discussing things that have happened in the episode, this thread is also partially a speculah thread. It's perfectly fine to craft and present speculah, but at least those speculah must be based on things that actually happened. QB never stated that his race (which he implies to have Omniscient Morality License) tried other things.


Eh, I actually like Mai-HiME. I'm a sucker for Earn Your Happy Ending type of story.

Oh, and let me know if you dont want to continue the discussion.

Mmm, I don't have much more to say honestly I think =) It seems the forum is about half and half divided on the QB thing at the moment anyway (from full on hatred/it is evil, vs it's "just" a sociopathic antagonist that is Madoka/Homura's true enemy). As for defending QB, it was more about that we need to listen to it and extract information from it but we can't take a single thing it says at face value. Basically they need to turn around the relationship and stop being manipulated by QB and instead do the manipulating. I mainly was trying to equate what QB does is not THAT different that certain types of humans. I honestly do buy into the fact where it says it doesn't 'understand' human emotions but is very good at manipulating them. I think there are a variety of humans actually who are similar. In fact the best manipulators might be the people who don't 'understand' those emotions because while they don't feel those emotions themselves they know what it does through trial and experience on others.

In terms of the mice subject, I think QB basically DOES think that Madoka and Homura and humans are mice. I'm expecting it to get at least a bit of a rude awakening though. Anyway, I think mostly your statements and idealism clashed with my own views mostly =) By the way I am a developer but I've wound up mostly working for pharmaceutical companies. So I have a bit of perspective on both sides heh. So I'm ok with dropping it at this point and agreeing to disagree as I think I got at least a tiny bit of my point across heh.

[Sekishi]

Originally Posted by ThereminVox

Is it just me, or is the swinging blade above Homura's head in her war room getting lower and lower? Durr... What Do You Mean It's Not Symbolic?

Which brings up another question (besides why do you even have one of those?!), is it supposed to represent the pendulum on a clock? I know Waperschnizel Night is kinda the end game, but do you think she also has a literal time limit to change the past?

Could be symbolic - ever heard of the Sword of Damocles?

Originally Posted by jeroz

Now the question is, (assuming Kyubey tells the whole truth), is the energy harvested during the transformation or after Kyubey eats the seed?
'we need this emotional energy but we don't have it, apparently it can be found in a race called humans. So, how do we harvest it? I know, drawing them out in physical forms'
Knowing how emotion works doesn't mean that you understand why they work like that.

I think the "emotion enery" is release the moment the SG bursts and turns into a GS. It was quite a blast that blew away Sayaka's body and Kyouko.
SeijiSensei might have hit the nail:
'QB seeks to extract young girls' "souls" and release their energy by compressing them into "seeds." '

[Elestia]

All this talk about QB lying is missing the point. The point is, never never never never ever trust him.

[Stormwhite]

I've never really been one to take part in speculation - so I'm just going to comment on how awesome the music was this episode. Hadn't really noticed it much before.

[garbage]

additional thoughts

it seems tho, homura do care for kyoko's welfare as well as sayaka from before, she was visibly (by facial expressions) affected when she realized what kyoko was planning to do in the end. of course she cant do anything anymore she has madoka to take care of. again it's so like homura saying she doesn't care but acting like she does.

and by the way QB is not sacrificing the girls, humans, humanity to "save" the UNIVERSE, he just wants a free energy source that doesn't increase universal entropy => basically increasing the natural life span of the universe. but what is objectionable is how it seems they would rather sacrifice us instead of probably just saving energy or using less energy themselves. no it seems they rather continue their alien lifestyle and to do that they need us humans as a viable energy source. [similar to how some people in this planet view the energy crisis]
Also delaying UNIVERSAL ENTROPY is of dubious benefit to human race at the moment, since this would happen so far in the future. earth could be hit by a wandering planet or the sun go nova looooong looong before that. so the argument that it will benefit "ALL" is questionable. possible if there's a race out there using energy at an enormous quantity to affect the timing, but then most probably it would be QB's race. they should just die out then or use less energy. for the "greater good"

well in defense of the sci fi feel of the entropy reveal, (tho i must admit it was unexpected) there was never any indication that QB is supernatural instead of alien stock. the show was never really heavy on the "medieval magic" setting IMO. actually the first few episodes i wondered if the show was on a near future setting. what with the high tech classrooms, bus stops, and general feel of the city. mostly i think it was just viewers preconceived notions of associating mahou or magic with "supernatural" "medieval" settings and stuff, that caused the jarring effect. i feel this is just more deconstruction in action.

as for the "never lied" vs being "untruthful" debate. it's going nowhere really fast because people are debating one definition against the other. while it might be true that QB never uttered a "false statement" it is also true that he purposely omitted information for his own ends thereby lying by omission. to have a fruitful debate or discussion on the issue let's follow Voltaire :
"Before we debate let us define our terms"

hmmm feeling so down on madoka better watch some uppers , lets go watch IS ^^ > for the plot!

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Elestia

All this talk about QB lying is missing the point. The point is, never never never never ever trust him.

This bears repeating, remember Sai from Peach girl? What did you think she did with the lies, especially the truth in the series? EXACTLY THE SAME THING!

It doesn't matter whether he provides cool upgrades, his persona STINKS! He's hiding something that makes everything about the contract pale in comparison to the final product.

All this technobabble shit is just over boarded wording to gloss over that she has to die for a greater gain, become boiled eggs for his dinner plate.

All this seeds he's collecting he's likely going to plant them so that they GROW INTO A TREE! See episode 1.

What bothers me is what could be so bad that even Homura is not talking.

1. She knows but revealing it would make it worse.

2. She doesn't know but has information that would bring it to light.

3. She only knows the revelation and not information needed to prevent it, given Kyubei's "truthfully deceptive" personalty it would get a great deal of effort to get any information out of him at previous timelines.

[SagaraSouske]

Since plenty of people simply ignore all other definition of 'lies' and define it narrowly as telling untruth. Let's examine QB's words. (Some paraphrasing but you get the idea)

Ep1. QB: 'Please contract with me so you can become a MG to kill witches and save those pour people being pushed to suicide.'
Ep9. QB: 'Please contract with me so you can become a MG and then turn into witches so I can harvest the energy of your soul to fight entropy."

Ep 1. QB: 'Help, Madoka, Help me, I am being killed...'
Ep 8. QB: 'You know killing me makes no difference.'

Ep 4. QB: 'Hey I will leave you guys alone since you don't want to contract.'
Ep 4. QB: 'Are you ready to contract now, Sayaka?"

Ep 5. QB: 'There is nothing I can do stop MGs from righting each other.'
Ep 6. QB: 'Hey you know I can touch your SG and create unbearable pains to you.'

Ep 9. QB: 'I don't know if it is possible to turn Witches back.'
Eo 9. QB: 'You know turning witches back is impossible.'

If you compare what he said, the first statement is false if the 2nd is 'truth'. So even under this narrow definition, QB has lied plenty of times.

[Master Chibi]

Honestly I think it's a load of shit that things they're trying to get rid of (the witches) are something they end up creating anyway. That's pretty forced as a point in the story if you ask me, I could do without it.

[Guardian Enzo]

As to Incubator's most recent rationalization, someone (I would give them credit but it was about 200 posts back and I can't remember) raised the salient point - every time it makes an explanation it leaves out the most important detail. It's a master of moving the goal posts - whether you want to call it outright lying our not, nothing it says is true - there's always a vital component left out. Thus, Incubator manages to shift the discussion father and farther piecemeal, and things that would have been unimaginable if it had stated them upfront now seem almost mundane. It's a lie split into ten parts.

So, as to whether its current explanation - the whole entropy theory - is true or not, you can bet at the very least the most harrowing part was conveniently omitted. Whether or not you believe Incubator is lying outright - and I think there's evidence if not proof that its done that already - you certainly wouldn't want to accept the entropy theory at face value.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by Crontica

Wow.. Anyway the ED says it all. You guys are so hung up on trying to defend Kyubei that you're not even trying anymore. Moving onward to the Homura camp.

I don't see it as a defense of QB. Furthermore, the Homura camp is even more miserable because all she cares about is Madoka. To those ends, anyone else dying is perfectly fine. I honestly don't even see how she's much different from QB. Both of them have a specific goal they're aiming for, and every one of their actions is informed by this goal. To this end, they will omit vital information and allow innocent people to die as long as it serves said goal.

It's episode nine in a twelve episode series, yet Homura is still pulling the "I won't tell you jack shit until another corpse is tossed in front of you, and even then it will be self-serving and as vague as possible."

Madoka is obviously involved at this point. After the first death and disillusionment with the idea of becoming a magical girl, Homura should have told her what she knew. Instead all we get are I-told-you-so's and head tosses as Madoka cries over the body of her best friend.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Since plenty of people simply ignore all other definition of 'lies' and define it narrowly as telling untruth. Let's examine QB's words. (Some paraphrasing but you get the idea)

Ep1. QB: 'Please contract with me so you can become a MG to kill witches and save those pour people being pushed to suicide.'
Ep9. QB: 'Please contract with me so you can become a MG and then turn into witches so I can harvest the energy of your soul to fight entropy."

The former is true, because stopping the witches do prevent them from driving people to suicide. The latter is also true for obvious reasons.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Ep 1. QB: 'Help, Madoka, Help me, I am being killed...'
Ep 8. QB: 'You know killing me makes no difference.'

Once again, Kyubey did not lie. He was being killed. Whether that affects him or not is drawn from your own interpretation.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Ep 4. QB: 'Hey I will leave you guys alone since you don't want to contract.'
Ep 4. QB: 'Are you ready to contract now, Sayaka?"

Different situations, different time of day. Kyubey did leave them alone for a moment. However, he did not state for how long. Kyubey did not stay with Madoka and Sayaka the entire time, therefore he kept his word.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Ep 5. QB: 'There is nothing I can do stop MGs from righting each other.'
Ep 6. QB: 'Hey you know I can touch your SG and create unbearable pains to you.'

You're making this out to be a lie on the baseless assumption that causing pain stops fighting. These are two completely unrelated statements. Kyubey did not stop the fight in ep5; they stopped when Madoka intervened and accidentally caused Sayaka to drop dead.

Originally Posted by SagaraSouske

Ep 9. QB: 'I don't know if it is possible to turn Witches back.'
Eo 9. QB: 'You know turning witches back is impossible.'

If you compare what he said, the first statement is false if the 2nd is 'truth'. So even under this narrow definition, QB has lied plenty of times.

If he does not know if a way to turn Witches back and cannot fathom the possibility that there is, then he believes that turning Witches back is impossible.

"Under this narrow definition," Kyubey has not lied. These statements have nothing more than contradicting implications.


This is not about whether Kyubey is right or wrong, or whether he is good or evil. What matters is that he is harming humans and needs to be stopped. There will never be a correct or conclusive stance on a character's moral being.

[DasDingus]

Originally Posted by Mentar

QB says goodbye to Madoka and Sayaka, telling that he needs to find other girls willing to contract with him. Sayaka goes to visit Kamijou. Unlike all other visits before, Kamijou has a nervous breakdown, queueing the line "there's no hope for my hand, save magic or a miracle". Sayaka reacts and yells "magic and miracles exist!" and directly sees QB waiting at the window.

It would take more than just blind naivete to believe that this was coincidental

It is clear at this point that QB understands the existence of human emotions and what causes them. However, making the jump from that to claiming he understands the significance of emotions as they apply to humans is going too far. He has said outright that his race does not have emotions. As far as he is concerned individual humans are just machines that produce these emotions. He does not understand the significance of emotions or the pain that comes with strong negative emotions. He's just preparing an energy source and his actions hold no more moral significance to him than prepping uranium for a nuclear power plant does to us.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that humans should just accept this and not fight back. I'm saying that as far as QB is concerned his actions have no moral value good or bad. They just are. You can't try to explain to him why you think what he's doing is wrong because our definition of wrong in this case has no meaning to him. Once you reach the point where you are unable to effectively communicate with an alien race then the only option is war.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by DasDingus

It is clear at this point that QB understands the existence of human emotions and what causes them. However, making the jump from that to claiming he understands the significance of emotions as they apply to humans is going too far.

And this - excuse me - is complete nonsense. He has been masterfully using human emotions throughout the entire show, multiple times. He has purposely applied emotional pressure to the girls to make them do exactly what he wanted. He knew exactly which emotional stimulus he could exploit for yet another run on a contract. Yet - at the same time - he claims that he doesn't understand them at all. Which is BS. It's a LIE. You cannot use human emotions so masterfully for your own gain without understanding them.

He has said outright that his race does not have emotions. As far as he is concerned individual humans are just machines that produce these emotions. He does not understand the significance of emotions or the pain that comes with strong negative emotions. He's just preparing an energy source and his actions hold no more moral significance to him than prepping uranium for a nuclear power plant does to us.

This is what he SAYS. But we know for a fact now that what he says has NO MEANING. He is an unmasked cheater who has been tricking little unsuspecting girls, and who he now admits are no more than "power sources" to him. To believe anything he says at this point of time, after what we know he has done all the time, is STUPID.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that humans should just accept this and not fight back. I'm saying that as far as QB is concerned his actions have no moral value good or bad. They just are. You can't try to explain to him why you think what he's doing is wrong because our definition of wrong in this case has no meaning to him. Once you reach the point where you are unable to effectively communicate with an alien race then the only option is war.

What I'm saying is that believe with near-certainty that there is no "alien race" who is worried about "entropy". What I'm saying is that FOR THE LOVE OF GOD you people should start to use your head and start thinking about things YOURSELF other than listen to a con man and his ramblings. Talk is cheap. Don't listen to what he SAYS, start thinking of what he DOES, and what he obviously WANTS. Not what he SAYS he wants. IGNORE his ramblings and only puzzle together what you know either from firsthand knowledge, or from sources who have proven to be credible so far (like Homura). If you do that, you'll make the astonishing discovery that things will begin to look very different.

[Crontica]

Originally Posted by Mentar

What I'm saying is that believe with near-certainty that there is no "alien race" who is worried about "entropy". What I'm saying is that FOR THE LOVE OF GOD you people should start to use your head and start thinking about things YOURSELF other than listen to a con man and his ramblings. Talk is cheap. Don't listen to what he SAYS, start thinking of what he DOES, and what he obviously WANTS. Not what he SAYS he wants. IGNORE his ramblings and only puzzle together what you know either from firsthand knowledge, or from sources who have proven to be credible so far (like Homura). If you do that, you'll make the astonishing discovery that things will begin to look very different.

Shinbo did say they make last minute changes to the script, i wouldn't be surprised if some of the changes were influenced by these online discussions.

Lets say you told Kyubei to GTFO, there's still the witches causing havoc, you'd have to run to a supernatural agency to take care of it, or go and summon a deity to fix it.