[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Cao Ni Ma]

Its your right to be disappointed, I would to. The game is leading us in that direction for a while and It would be pretty big twist if it just happens that they aren't really the same person.

[TehChron]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

How so? People keep bringing this up, but I never get a satisfactory answer. The other servants would've just accepted it, Kumasawa and Genji would roll with it, Nanjo and Kinzo are too distant to be relevant, Krauss is stupid, Natsuhi is out of her mind, and Jessica is...stupid and hormonal.

Why would they roll with furthering someone's potentially dangerous delusions? They already knew about what happened with Kinzo, isn't it reasonable that they'd act to nip such developments in the bud as people that cared about her well being? The normal reaction to people developing DID or something like that isn't to encourage it, I don't believe.

And, once again, they have the memory of what Kinzo did in his madness fresh on their minds, I can't imagine Kumasawa and Genji not being apprehensive. Moreover, why would the other servants just accept it? That's...a baseless assumption.

[einhorn303]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Why would they roll with furthering someone's potentially dangerous delusions? They already knew about what happened with Kinzo, isn't it reasonable that they'd act to nip such developments in the bud as people that cared about her well being? The normal reaction to people developing DID or something like that isn't to encourage it, I don't believe.

And, once again, they have the memory of what Kinzo did in his madness fresh on their minds, I can't imagine Kumasawa and Genji not being apprehensive. Moreover, why would the other servants just accept it? That's...a baseless assumption.

The only way they'd be able to truly cure her DID would be to call in a real professional psychologist.

And that could lead to embarrassing revelations for the Ushiromiya household.

So it could be that, they didn't actively encourage her delusions, but they felt like they couldn't do anything to check it. And it must have seemed harmless to them at first, before any murders were planned. Kumasawa certainly was very eager to protect the delusions of Maria.

Originally Posted by Moogleking

I still have a hard time accepting Shannon and Kanon being the same person.

There are just too many contradictions. You don't even have to look farther than the first twilight of the first game.

Kanon is standing beside Battler, along with most everybody else that is still alive. It is said Kanon is burning the image of half of Shannon's face into his eyes.

Since there are no body double tricks, that should be Shannon's real body. If Shannon is faking death, and is the same person as Kanon, it means we're basically shown a fake person existing from Battler's perspective.

It makes sense from the perspective of "These are fictional tales written by Yasushkannontrice in order to keep the cat box sealed on the 'real' reality of Rokkenjima, revealed in Episode 7's tea party."

Notice how amazingly free of Shannon/Kannon contradictions the scenario in EP7's tea party is.

[AuraTwilight]

There are just too many contradictions. You don't even have to look farther than the first twilight of the first game.

Kanon is standing beside Battler, along with most everybody else that is still alive. It is said Kanon is burning the image of half of Shannon's face into his eyes.

Since there are no body double tricks, that should be Shannon's real body. If Shannon is faking death, and is the same person as Kanon, it means we're basically shown a fake person existing from Battler's perspective.

Except no one claims to have seen Shannon's body but Kanon and Hideyoshi. Kanon has every reason to lie, and so does Hideyoshi if we go with the idea that he's being pressured, or that there's supposed to be a "Fake First Twilight" plot.

The third person narrative lies to us all the fucking time.

The closed room circle. They go to Shannon's body in the parlor, then follow the closed room circle to get to the chapel and find Kanon's body. It is impossible for Shannon to have gotten inside the chapel, because she wouldn't have had the key and it was locked.

You basically have to assume that everything shown is false. And at that point, it isn't a solvable mystery anymore.

Then in game 6, we are told there are 17 people on the island. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person, who is the 17th person? And I've heard the argument that Erika is supposed to be the 17th person for just those 2 games, but that just doesn't make sense with how it is worded "Even if you join us, there are 17 people." It also provides no explanation for why this statement kills Erika.

I have a hard time believing there will be a satisfactory answer for all of these if Shannon and Kanon are the same person. If there isn't, I will be thoroughly disappointed with the outcome.

It was not shown to be locked until they got to the chapel and Kanon's body was in there. The chapel could've been unlocked, as the chapel can be locked from the inside without needing the key. Shannon becomes Kanon, goes inside, locks it, plays dead.

Erika + Everyone else = 17 people. This statement hurts Erika because she is not the 18th person.

But it doesn't have to kill her. SHE WAS ALREADY DYING.

Why would they roll with furthering someone's potentially dangerous delusions? They already knew about what happened with Kinzo, isn't it reasonable that they'd act to nip such developments in the bud as people that cared about her well being? The normal reaction to people developing DID or something like that isn't to encourage it, I don't believe.

And, once again, they have the memory of what Kinzo did in his madness fresh on their minds, I can't imagine Kumasawa and Genji not being apprehensive. Moreover, why would the other servants just accept it? That's...a baseless assumption.

Well, for one, it's not DID, and it's not necessarily a delusion; we don't know if Yasu genuinely believes in this bullshit.

"Hey, guys, I'm gonna do this bullshit. Can you roll with it?"

Inside, Kumasawa and Genji conclude that it's only fair to allow Shannon to experiment with genders, since they pretty much fucked up and got her neutered maybe. Also they say that they've always considered Yasu the true successor in their hearts even before she solved the Epitaph, so suck on that.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Here's a problem with the chapel scene, how do we know it actually can be opened and closed from the inside? Was it showned in any other place that wasn't being assaulted by magical golden butterflies?

[Vylen]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Here's a problem with the chapel scene, how do we know it actually can be opened and closed from the inside? Was it showned in any other place that wasn't being assaulted by magical golden butterflies?

2nd Game - George, Ghoda and Shannon go into the Chapel via the window to retrieve Natsuhi's key. They leave through the locked chapel door after managing to unlock it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Here's a problem with the chapel scene, how do we know it actually can be opened and closed from the inside? Was it showned in any other place that wasn't being assaulted by magical golden butterflies?

Opened and closed? Yes. When they enter. When Jessica runs out crying with Kanon and gets herself killed in the 2nd twilight. And when the rest leave too. They obviously used the door as an exit and we have people who saw them leave.

Or did you mean to say something else?

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Opened and closed? Yes. When they enter. When Jessica runs out crying with Kanon and gets herself killed in the 2nd twilight. And when the rest leave too. They obviously used the door as an exit and we have people who saw them leave.

Or did you mean to say something else?

I mean while its locked, they supposedly had a hard time to open the door to the chapel so they broke a window. After that they got in and got assaulted by butterflies and rush out of the chapel by opening the door trough the inside.

Originally Posted by Vylen

2nd Game - George, Ghoda and Shannon go into the Chapel via the window to retrieve Natsuhi's key. They leave through the locked chapel door after managing to unlock it.

Again, how can we trust this scene if they got lunged by magical golden butterflies? Why would we trust this scene and not the others?

It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit

[SonozakiUshiromiya]

Originally Posted by einhorn303

It makes sense from the perspective of "These are fictional tales written by Yasushkannontrice in order to keep the cat box sealed on the 'real' reality of Rokkenjima, revealed in Episode 7's tea party."

Notice how amazingly free of Shannon/Kannon contradictions the scenario in EP7's tea party is.

Not this again. If Kyrie and Rudolf were the culprits, I'd accept it. But not how Bern told things. In fact, in the Tea Party, there's no mention of Shannon or Kanon except in the beginning when everyone had first come to the island and George's proposal. They just fade away, and then Beatrice shows up. As we've been shown, they're much more than a simple side note for Beatrice. In fact, Beatrice's corpse disappears between the time Kyrie 'killed' her and when Eva had woken up. While I go on about Bern's story, what about GENSAWAJO? Bern takes the time to mention Gohda's death and who did it, but when it comes to Kinzo's closest allies and therefore shown as those who know of Kuwadorian, Bern doesn't even bother to mention how they might have died or that they even existed. She may have an excuse with Battler and Maria's death can be figured out, but nothing on Kinzo's top three. In Bern's story, Kyrie and Rudolf can kill everyone easily and in some cases cruelly, but they fail to kill Eva three times at point-blank range. In Rudolf's case, he knew the gun shot low, but 'mr. marksman' didn't even bother to aim higher to compensate. And according to Bern's story, Rudolf and Kyrie were the only ones who could really use the guns since the reloading mechanism was difficult. But Eva picks up Hideyoshi's gun and she automatically can fire three times easily(loading a new bullet twice). And Eva's brilliant enough to solve the epitath pretty much on her own, but she can't figure out Kyrie's out for blood until right before her husband's killed. As for Kyrie, how would she know for certain that this clearly unstable girl was able to transfer the money into cash? The card could be entirely useless. And why would she take this girl's word as truth about the bomb being set for only midnight or that it would certainly work at this point of time? I'll end this rant for now, but the fact is Bern's story is a puzzle with missing pieces that a kid threw together and forced the pieces to fit together although the result is clearly wrong.

[Vylen]

I knew you'd use that red

One way to counter that is that within the context of the conversation, they were talking about gaining entry into the chapel from the outside - this was after Battler suggested some sort of pick/device to unlock the door to gain entry. (Of course, I miiiiiiight be stretching it a bit )

The second red highlights the ambiguity and importance of context. The red makes it sound absolute - obviously, locking the chapel door doesn't prevent a person from entering/exiting through a broken window.

As for trusting the scene... that's up to you I guess... *invokes Knox's 9th*

[AuraTwilight]

It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit

However, it does not say you need the chapel's key to lock the lock. See?

Also, all Fantasy Scenes have a bit of truth to them; they're not just TROLOLOLOLOL.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

Again, how can we trust this scene if they got lunged by magical golden butterflies? Why would we trust this scene and not the others?

Because magic scenes still need to have some degree of credibility. If Beatrice's point is to make Battler believe in magic she'd try to be consistent and only insert magic as a fantasy.
If the scenario where these magic scenes happen is completely different than the one in reality then Battler could easily draw it all as a dream.

We go by the assumption that Battler knows if there's a manual lock or not inside the chapel since he's been there.

Also we know that Battler assumes that such a lock exists because of the "small bomb" theory he made in EP4.
Of course that's a ridiculous theory, but even if we assume that the small bombs actually exist, that theory still wouldn't explain a damn thing, unless the manual lock exist.
The rule of the "blue truth" dictates that a blue must deny a magic to be effective. As ridiculous as the "small bomb" theory was, it was effective. The only way it could be effective is if a manual lock existed.

It is impossible to unlock the lock to the chapel without the chapel's key
When the door to the chapel is locked, it prevents any and all methods of entry or exit

I've often quoted this case to show how there are implicit assumption in the red truths. Here the implicit assumption is "from outside".

[KazePT]

Originally Posted by TehChron

Why would they roll with furthering someone's potentially dangerous delusions? They already knew about what happened with Kinzo, isn't it reasonable that they'd act to nip such developments in the bud as people that cared about her well being? The normal reaction to people developing DID or something like that isn't to encourage it, I don't believe.

And, once again, they have the memory of what Kinzo did in his madness fresh on their minds, I can't imagine Kumasawa and Genji not being apprehensive. Moreover, why would the other servants just accept it? That's...a baseless assumption.

Genji and the servants (excluding Gohda) had much to "compensate" to Yasu.
They lied and they hidden the truth about who that child really was, while trying to protect "her".

After all that "she" went through, "she" became like that. I think that they would do anything that "she" wanted, just because remorse was probably eating them on the inside.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Because magic scenes still need to have some degree of credibility. If Beatrice's point is to make Battler believe in magic she'd try to be consistent and only insert magic as a fantasy.
If the scenario where these magic scenes happen is completely different than the one in reality then Battler could easily draw it all as a dream.

We go by the assumption that Battler knows if there's a manual lock or not inside the chapel since he's been there.

Also we know that Battler assumes that such a lock exists because of the "small bomb" theory he made in EP4.
Of course that's a ridiculous theory, but even if we assume that the small bombs actually exist, that theory still wouldn't explain a damn thing, unless the manual lock exist.
The rule of the "blue truth" dictates that a blue must deny a magic to be effective. As ridiculous as the "small bomb" theory was, it was effective. The only way it could be effective is if a manual lock existed.

No, that blue is effective because small bombs could exist and a manual lock could exist. Beatrice could have denied it with either red if she could and wanted.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Cao Ni Ma

No, that blue is effective because small bombs could exist and a manual lock could exist. Beatrice could have denied it with either red if she could and wanted.

Nowhere in the blue truth a manual lock is mentioned.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Nowhere in the blue truth a manual lock is mentioned.

Its mentioned in an earlier instance of it, all of the blue's after the red regarding Maria's key involved them locking themselves in the chapel without using the key. Beatrice could have stopped him right there by saying that without the key its impossible to open or close the door.

Battler has never tried to open or lock the door from the inside, the only apparent scene where its done is in a fantasy scene. The probability of there not being a manual lock in the inside still exists.

[Jan-Poo]

The blue truth you are referring to only says that people locked the door from inside.

This blue truth wouldn't be effective if it wasn't already established that an internal lock existed.
If it wasn't established, the blue truth would need to theorize its existence.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The blue truth you are referring to only says that people locked the door from inside.

This blue truth wouldn't be effective if it wasn't already established that an internal lock existed.
If it wasn't established, the blue truth would need to theorize its existence.

Ok then here's what the initial one said

The victims locked the door from the inside. One of the six was the culprit, and this person killed the other five, then pretended to be dead!!

It can be attacked in two different ways. Either you choose to attack it by saying that the six where dead and no one was playing or you can deny it by saying that the was no way to lock the door from the inside without the key.

e- Lets go even deeper, during the chapel scene in EP2 Beatrice actively covers for Maria. During the chapel scene in EP4 she leaves her open by saying that the key never leaves her person. So if she's still trying to cover for Maria she's gonna use the move that would leave her even more exposed? She chose the option that would draw less fire to Maria and stucked with it.

Of course, this assumes that there is no way to close the door from the inside. If there is then its nulled.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

It was not shown to be locked until they got to the chapel and Kanon's body was in there. The chapel could've been unlocked, as the chapel can be locked from the inside without needing the key. Shannon becomes Kanon, goes inside, locks it, plays dead.

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment.

All keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!

There's two ways you can interpret this statement.
1) Each key was inside a locked room before its discovery.
2) All of the keys were locked inside the linked rooms at the moment the first room was opened.

Are you really sure that Beato meant #1 and not #2?

All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants! When Shannon's pockets were searched, only one master key was found. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person and the chapel was left unlocked, then by necessity, Kanon's master key was not locked up in the linked closed rooms at the moment they were opened, which is a contradiction under interpretation #2.

[loctar87]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment.

All keys related to the linked closed rooms were locked inside the linked closed rooms!!

There's two ways you can interpret this statement.
1) Each key was inside a locked room before its discovery.
2) All of the keys were locked inside the linked rooms at the moment the first room was opened.

Are you really sure that Beato meant #1 and not #2?

All five master keys were discovered, each in the pocket of one of the servants! When Shannon's pockets were searched, only one master key was found. If Shannon and Kanon are the same person and the chapel was left unlocked, then by necessity, Kanon's master key was not locked up in the linked closed rooms at the moment they were opened, which is a contradiction under interpretation #2.

Even if you interpret it as #2, Shannon simply hid the 2nd key somewhere else in the room. When everyone leaves, she retrieves the key, becomes Kanon, and puts the key in her pocket. That satisfies both of those red truths.