[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[TsundereCake]

Originally Posted by jdlkem

seriously tho...

who is the curly-haired red-head with the evil smile at 0:48? is that the real ushiromiya battler-chan? it's definitely not gaap...

Ummm.... that is Gaap^^;

[Marion]

Originally Posted by jdlkem

seriously tho...

who is the curly-haired red-head with the evil smile at 0:48? is that the real ushiromiya battler-chan? it's definitely not gaap...

It IS Gaap XD That's her yandere look. It only appears once though I think, during her fight with George.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Mercurius

-That tower with the crucifix on top in the beginning, can't quite place it in the game.


-Ange's 'death' seemed very plague-like, or even like she was burned. Either way, pretty gruesome.

1) Maybe it is a shot of the church/chapel on the island?

2) That scene was a flashback to the events of ep 4 (when Ange disappeared from behind Battler)

Originally Posted by jdlkem

seriously tho...

who is the curly-haired red-head with the evil smile at 0:48? is that the real ushiromiya battler-chan? it's definitely not gaap...

How the heck can you not see that it IS Gaap...

The more I listen to the new OP the more I fricking love it. EPICCCCCCC~

[unconfirmed]

Hey everyone, I've decided to challenge myself with trying to find a decent theory to explain the happenings in the 4 Episodes so far. Of course, not everything will be conveniently explained or will my theory even be able to explain everything. In fact, I really hope I completely miss the ballpark with this one since that would mean Ryukishi's doing a good job . In any case, I just wanted to get the (rusty) gears in my brain running and come up with something viable.

Spoiler for spoilers for Eps 1-4 everywhere:

First things first, in order for my theory to work, there are several proposals that I'd like to make and for you guys to accept. lol. Oh and feel free to question my reasoning.

So, straight to the point....

1. Witches and magic do not exist, in other words, I'm taking an anti-fantasy route to explain everything. That may seem simple enough, but, remember, I'm saying that Beatrice and all her minions are impossible (in the sense that they don't exist physically). The different game "boards" are impossible as there is only one possibility out of how many billions of games they play that will be TRUE (Schrodinger Cat explanation presented in game).

2. "Who's the killer?", "Does Beatrice/magic really exist?" and questions such as that are not important. In fact, there's one question that, if answered, will easily lead to the answers of the previous two. That question is simply, for a lack of better wording, "WTF is going on?". The game is confusing only because we do not know the mechanics of the world of Rokkenjima, if we can shed some light on that then it'd be game.

3. True magic, in other words, Maria's, George's, and Jessica's magic (seen in Ep 4) are just another term for intangible powers such as faith, belief, trust, hope, etc..etc.. After all, Beatrice's magic is not real magic, since what she does is absolutely impossible following the anti-fantasy viewpoint. Yet, we can still accept the former type of magic because Ryukishi is simply putting a name to common emotions.

4. The most farfetched and contradictory part of my theory is here, when I propose that you accept that ALL creations of Maria or that created with true magic strong enough have a will of their own and are able to function as an individual.

5. Things are not what they seem. You’ll know what this means in the actual theory, but to whoever that’s read Ever17, think “who am I, who are you?”.

Now time for some facts that I believe will be important.

1. There are 17 people on the island (and no, I don't believe Shannon = Kanon....that would mean George and Jessica got jipped bad) and the real Kinzo is dead.

2. Ushiromiya Battler is a blood descendant of Ushiromiya Kinzo, yet he is not the "Battler" that he believes himself to be. Oh and this particular Battler is a stubborn fool who will never believe in witches/magic no matter what. Cool.

3. Concerning "worlds". We can safely say this: there are 3 separate worlds, Beatrice's fantasy tea-filled world, Rokkenjima of 1986, and the real world (both before and after the incident). Following the train of thought from Proposal 1, we can say that, for sure, the real world contains facts and only that. We can also say that, by assuming parallel worlds do not exist, what was shown happening in the future world of Ange (therefore fact) is a direct result of what happened in the world of Rokkenjima. By doing this we receive a valuable piece of information about the world of Rokkenjima: Eva is a survivor no matter what, meaning we can eliminate all of Beato's game boards where Eva dies. Of course, that's not to say Ep 3 is fact.

THEORY

Thanks for reading this far, now here's the meat of my theory. I’ll be just simply be following the set timeline presented by the 4 Eps and incorporating my theory (in red lol) along the way, explaining whenever the need arises.


Rokkenjima (pre 1986)

• Siblings Krauss, Eva, Rudolf, and Rosa were born
• Rosa finds Kuwadorian (sp?) and witnesses Beatrice’s death who is obviously NOT the Beato we know, this person is just a regular human that Kinzo…trapped >_>
• Eva creates Eva-Beatrice. Now this is an example of true magic explained in Proposal 3 and further extended in Proposal 4). As such, Eva-Beatrice is now a perfectly functioning individual based off the imperfections of the childish Eva.

Outside World (pre 1986)

• All siblings grow up and get married
• Krauss to Natsuhi, child Jessica is born
• Eva to Hideyoshi, child George is born
• Rudolf to Asumu, REAL Battler is born, Asumu dies. Rudolf then remarried to Kyrie, no child is born.
• Rosa is married to some anon (let’s call him A), meta-Battler (although he may not be called “Battler”) is born, Maria is born soon after, A leaves after a while with the custody of one of the children: meta-Battler. Let’s assume that meta-Battler got on really, really well with his sister Maria before he left. Everyone was happy and jolly.
• Meta-Battler decides he wants to go back to his mother and shuns his father’s side of the family, taking back the surname Ushiromiya. He gets along with Rudolf’s family (now married to Kyrie), the real Battler, and Maria. However, a freak accident occurs and meta-Battler is killed. Maria suffers hell.
• Maria recreates her brother “Battler” and the entire supernatural cast with the exception of Eva-Beatrice. As Maria is so pro all of her creations are completely independent with their own personalities. During Maria’s visits to Rokkenjima, she creates the witch Beatrice from the stories about the witch in the forest (who’s actually Kinzo’s trapped girl).
• Maria begins her grimoire, time passes and she suffers abuse to the point where she stops believing in magic, thus losing everything. However, her creations are independent and still reside in Rokkenjima where she spent a large part of her childhood. Creation Battler, now without Maria to anchor his soul, has an identity crisis and believes himself to be Rudolf and Asumu’s son and takes on the appearance of REAL Battler (who'm he probably looked up to or something as a child)
  
• Meanwhile, Kinzo laments the death of Beatrice, but is unable to do anything before he succumbs to old age + alcohol
• Imaginary Beatrice runs things at Rokkenjima and starts appearing to people with faith (read: magic). Shannon destroys the mirror and causes Beatrice’s presence to grow stronger, Shannon’s promised a relationship with George.

Rokkenjima (Oct. 4, 1986)

• 17 people present on the island, including the REAL Battler. Kinzo is dead and does not show himself AT ALL.
• Meta-Battler is stubborn and does not believe in magic. Beatrice messes with meta-Battler’s sense of reality as he’s viewing the events on Rokkenjima from an omnipotent perspective. The characters presented, however, are probably only meta-Battler’s memory of them before his death. In fact, Maria might have even changed her appearance…oh, to say something like a certain blue-haired girl….>_> on a certain portrait.
• Beatrice’s ultimate goal is probably to put the now cynical Maria’s creations to rest in the “Golden Land”, in order for her to do that, however, she has to convince meta-Battler that magic exists and that he is only a piece of a child’s memory. She does this by manipulating meta-Battler’s perception of the actual events on Rokkenjima through the use of parallel game “boards”.
• Shannon, Kanon, and perhaps Genji have some sort of idea that they are pieces in Beato’s illusion and their magical barriers/swords are just a physical manifestation of their resistance. The same applies to George/Jessica.
• In reality, on Rokkenjima on that day, murders occur due to motive X by killer Y (not really of our current interest by Proposal 2)
• Eva and Maria survives the ordeal and discovers the gold.

Ange’s World of the Future

• Maria loses her memories (..for some convenient reason) and Eva, to lessen her pain, “kills” the Maria that existed in the past and rewrites her memories by telling her that she’s the unborn child of Kyrie named Ange. However, “Ange” still remembers bits and pieces of her past with her brother. (lol..and I do realize that Maria changes her hair color many times in accordance with this theory)
• Ange suffers because of Bernkastel’s trick and denies Eva’s love
• Ange discovers her old grimoire and seeks out the help of “magic” once more to summon old friends.
• Ange goes on a mission to find out the truth while on the run from a completely non-blood related white haired creepy woman wanting her inheritance.
• The End.

Now when I go back and read my own theory, it seems like a load of bs.. lol…but oh well, it’s been fun trying to wrap my head around the mystery and I encourage others to try as well. Feel free to question me about the inconsistencies of my theory and I’ll try to come up with something plausible .

[k//eternal]

Man, even if it's a neat theory, I hope that's wrong, because the "main character is a magical creation" story has been done way too many times.

[Jan-Poo]

Yeah that reminds me of a certain Final fantasy character

[Mercurius]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

1) Maybe it is a shot of the church/chapel on the island?

2) That scene was a flashback to the events of ep 4 (when Ange disappeared from behind Battler)

Yup, forgot to consider the church. Don't remember seeing that particular angle of it in the game.

And yes, I realize it's what happened in Ep.4. I was just pointing out that it was showing the part of Ange's death that wasn't shown (only text+bloodspots) in the game, and whether or not that contained a hint on the murders.

[tofupika]

I know this is totally uncalled for, but when watching the episode 5 Op again, I thought of this.

Spoiler for Pic:

To me, the island looks like a goat.

[Marion]

lawl |D

It always reminded me of a weird shaped cross personally.

[Saerianne]

LOL
I wonder why they changed the shape in the anime. They didn't change it that much, but it looks like a bird now.

Ooh, so it's Umineko no naku koro ni chiru?

[tofupika]

I thought it looked sort of like a cross too at first, but after staring at it, it just looked like goat. O_O

[lovelysan]

That is the cutest island edit I've ever seen .

[Li Jianliang]

Lyrics for the Episode 5 OP. I've only played through Episode 1 at this point, so I'm not sure if the lyrics are spoilerish or not.

Spoiler for Translation:

The Witch of Occultics (Game Size Version)
Vocals: Ayumu (Zwei)
Lyrics: Shikura Chiyomaru
Composition: Shikura Chiyomaru
Arrangement: Ueno Koji

Unreachable things are scattered near and far in this world
Incorporeal observers complete the omniscience
The pendulum that swings back and forth has a slightly impure motive
The fruit of the Tree of Life fell onto the soil

If, like magic, this unnatural and insane ceremony
With a brush tip that sketches freedom, fulfills itself
Then it denies the whole world

Dreams, it’s exactly as if they see through everything
Ridiculing you with an insolent power and filled with bliss
With a meaningless, disturbing description and enough so to flaunt itself
The omniscient power is overturned and peels and falls off
Into a constructed hope

Spoiler for Romaji:

Okarutikusu no Majo (Game Size Version)
Vocals: Ayumu (Zwei)

Kono sekai ni chirabaru tooku chikaku ni todokanu mono
Jittai no nai kansokusha zenchi o mitasu
Kurikaesu penjuramu wazuka sukoshi no fujun douki
Seimei no ki no kajitsu wa tsuchi ni ochita

Mahou no you ni fushizen de kyouki shimita kono gishiki ga
Jiyuu o egaku fudesaki de kanaeru no nara
Sekai goto hiteisuru

Yume wa sore wa maru de subete o misukasu you ni
Furachi na chikara de azawarai shifuku ni mitasare yuku
Imi naku kakuransuru byousha de kojisuru hodo
Zenchi no chikara wa kutsugaeri hagare ochiyuku
Shikumareta kiseki e to

Spoiler for Japanese:

オカルティクスの魔女(ゲームサイズバーション)
歌:Ayumu (Zwei)
作詞:志倉千代丸
作曲:志倉千代丸
編曲:上野浩司

この世界に散らばる　遠く近くに届かぬもの
実体の無い観測者　全知を満たす
繰り返すペンジュラム　わずか少しの不純動機
生命の木の果実は　土に落ちた

魔法のように不自然で　狂気染みたこの儀式が
自由を描く筆先で　叶えるのなら
世界ごと否定する

夢はそれはまるで　全てを見透かすように
不埒な力で嘲笑い　至福に満たされゆく
意味無く撹乱する描写で　誇示するほど
全知の力は覆り　剥がれ落ち行く
仕組まれた奇跡

From http://atashi.wordpress.com/2009/07/...-size-version/

[kiki_natsumi-chan]

Originally Posted by tofupika

I know this is totally uncalled for, but when watching the episode 5 Op again, I thought of this.

Spoiler for Pic:

To me, the island looks like a goat.

That's one cute island. |D I never saw it that way until now.

[momobunny]

I'm having a bit of a hard time deciding whether I should indulge and read the spoilers as soon as they come out, or wait for the translation patch to come out and play it for myself.

This is the first answer arc, so if I spoil something... I fear that I'll REALLY spoil something huge. Which will take away from my enjoyment while playing...

On the other hand, I really really want to know what happens in the story, really badly. Even if I try to resist reading spoilers, I might become weak and unable to resist temptation.

But maybe if I just try hard not to do that to myself, and instead just focus on the anime... I'll be able to avoid them?

But I'll be so curious as to what awesome music will play in EP5, if they'll remix tracks... and it'll probably be very difficult to stay away from spoilers for me.

Ugh! I don't know what to do, this is going to be so hard. >.<

[Marion]

Personally I'll do my best to avoid spoilers until the patch comes out. I probably won't even buy the game right away though - wondering if I should just wait until after December, when the 2nd answer arc comes out and then just buy the two of them. The wait is a lot smaller after all and I'll be focusing a lot on my entrance exams for college.

[Christen]

Originally Posted by unconfirmed

Hey everyone, I've decided to challenge myself with trying to find a decent theory to explain the happenings in the 4 Episodes so far. Of course, not everything will be conveniently explained or will my theory even be able to explain everything. In fact, I really hope I completely miss the ballpark with this one since that would mean Ryukishi's doing a good job . In any case, I just wanted to get the (rusty) gears in my brain running and come up with something viable.

Spoiler for spoilers for Eps 1-4 everywhere:

First things first, in order for my theory to work, there are several proposals that I'd like to make and for you guys to accept. lol. Oh and feel free to question my reasoning.

So, straight to the point....

1. Witches and magic do not exist, in other words, I'm taking an anti-fantasy route to explain everything. That may seem simple enough, but, remember, I'm saying that Beatrice and all her minions are impossible (in the sense that they don't exist physically). The different game "boards" are impossible as there is only one possibility out of how many billions of games they play that will be TRUE (Schrodinger Cat explanation presented in game).

2. "Who's the killer?", "Does Beatrice/magic really exist?" and questions such as that are not important. In fact, there's one question that, if answered, will easily lead to the answers of the previous two. That question is simply, for a lack of better wording, "WTF is going on?". The game is confusing only because we do not know the mechanics of the world of Rokkenjima, if we can shed some light on that then it'd be game.

3. True magic, in other words, Maria's, George's, and Jessica's magic (seen in Ep 4) are just another term for intangible powers such as faith, belief, trust, hope, etc..etc.. After all, Beatrice's magic is not real magic, since what she does is absolutely impossible following the anti-fantasy viewpoint. Yet, we can still accept the former type of magic because Ryukishi is simply putting a name to common emotions.

4. The most farfetched and contradictory part of my theory is here, when I propose that you accept that ALL creations of Maria or that created with true magic strong enough have a will of their own and are able to function as an individual.

5. Things are not what they seem. You’ll know what this means in the actual theory, but to whoever that’s read Ever17, think “who am I, who are you?”.

Now time for some facts that I believe will be important.

1. There are 17 people on the island (and no, I don't believe Shannon = Kanon....that would mean George and Jessica got jipped bad) and the real Kinzo is dead.

2. Ushiromiya Battler is a blood descendant of Ushiromiya Kinzo, yet he is not the "Battler" that he believes himself to be. Oh and this particular Battler is a stubborn fool who will never believe in witches/magic no matter what. Cool.

3. Concerning "worlds". We can safely say this: there are 3 separate worlds, Beatrice's fantasy tea-filled world, Rokkenjima of 1986, and the real world (both before and after the incident). Following the train of thought from Proposal 1, we can say that, for sure, the real world contains facts and only that. We can also say that, by assuming parallel worlds do not exist, what was shown happening in the future world of Ange (therefore fact) is a direct result of what happened in the world of Rokkenjima. By doing this we receive a valuable piece of information about the world of Rokkenjima: Eva is a survivor no matter what, meaning we can eliminate all of Beato's game boards where Eva dies. Of course, that's not to say Ep 3 is fact.

THEORY

Thanks for reading this far, now here's the meat of my theory. I’ll be just simply be following the set timeline presented by the 4 Eps and incorporating my theory (in red lol) along the way, explaining whenever the need arises.


Rokkenjima (pre 1986)

• Siblings Krauss, Eva, Rudolf, and Rosa were born
• Rosa finds Kuwadorian (sp?) and witnesses Beatrice’s death who is obviously NOT the Beato we know, this person is just a regular human that Kinzo…trapped >_>
• Eva creates Eva-Beatrice. Now this is an example of true magic explained in Proposal 3 and further extended in Proposal 4). As such, Eva-Beatrice is now a perfectly functioning individual based off the imperfections of the childish Eva.

Outside World (pre 1986)

• All siblings grow up and get married
• Krauss to Natsuhi, child Jessica is born
• Eva to Hideyoshi, child George is born
• Rudolf to Asumu, REAL Battler is born, Asumu dies. Rudolf then remarried to Kyrie, no child is born.
• Rosa is married to some anon (let’s call him A), meta-Battler (although he may not be called “Battler”) is born, Maria is born soon after, A leaves after a while with the custody of one of the children: meta-Battler. Let’s assume that meta-Battler got on really, really well with his sister Maria before he left. Everyone was happy and jolly.
• Meta-Battler decides he wants to go back to his mother and shuns his father’s side of the family, taking back the surname Ushiromiya. He gets along with Rudolf’s family (now married to Kyrie), the real Battler, and Maria. However, a freak accident occurs and meta-Battler is killed. Maria suffers hell.
• Maria recreates her brother “Battler” and the entire supernatural cast with the exception of Eva-Beatrice. As Maria is so pro all of her creations are completely independent with their own personalities. During Maria’s visits to Rokkenjima, she creates the witch Beatrice from the stories about the witch in the forest (who’s actually Kinzo’s trapped girl).
• Maria begins her grimoire, time passes and she suffers abuse to the point where she stops believing in magic, thus losing everything. However, her creations are independent and still reside in Rokkenjima where she spent a large part of her childhood. Creation Battler, now without Maria to anchor his soul, has an identity crisis and believes himself to be Rudolf and Asumu’s son and takes on the appearance of REAL Battler (who'm he probably looked up to or something as a child)
  
• Meanwhile, Kinzo laments the death of Beatrice, but is unable to do anything before he succumbs to old age + alcohol
• Imaginary Beatrice runs things at Rokkenjima and starts appearing to people with faith (read: magic). Shannon destroys the mirror and causes Beatrice’s presence to grow stronger, Shannon’s promised a relationship with George.

Rokkenjima (Oct. 4, 1986)

• 17 people present on the island, including the REAL Battler. Kinzo is dead and does not show himself AT ALL.
• Meta-Battler is stubborn and does not believe in magic. Beatrice messes with meta-Battler’s sense of reality as he’s viewing the events on Rokkenjima from an omnipotent perspective. The characters presented, however, are probably only meta-Battler’s memory of them before his death. In fact, Maria might have even changed her appearance…oh, to say something like a certain blue-haired girl….>_> on a certain portrait.
• Beatrice’s ultimate goal is probably to put the now cynical Maria’s creations to rest in the “Golden Land”, in order for her to do that, however, she has to convince meta-Battler that magic exists and that he is only a piece of a child’s memory. She does this by manipulating meta-Battler’s perception of the actual events on Rokkenjima through the use of parallel game “boards”.
• Shannon, Kanon, and perhaps Genji have some sort of idea that they are pieces in Beato’s illusion and their magical barriers/swords are just a physical manifestation of their resistance. The same applies to George/Jessica.
• In reality, on Rokkenjima on that day, murders occur due to motive X by killer Y (not really of our current interest by Proposal 2)
• Eva and Maria survives the ordeal and discovers the gold.

Ange’s World of the Future

• Maria loses her memories (..for some convenient reason) and Eva, to lessen her pain, “kills” the Maria that existed in the past and rewrites her memories by telling her that she’s the unborn child of Kyrie named Ange. However, “Ange” still remembers bits and pieces of her past with her brother. (lol..and I do realize that Maria changes her hair color many times in accordance with this theory)
• Ange suffers because of Bernkastel’s trick and denies Eva’s love
• Ange discovers her old grimoire and seeks out the help of “magic” once more to summon old friends.
• Ange goes on a mission to find out the truth while on the run from a completely non-blood related white haired creepy woman wanting her inheritance.
• The End.

Now when I go back and read my own theory, it seems like a load of bs.. lol…but oh well, it’s been fun trying to wrap my head around the mystery and I encourage others to try as well. Feel free to question me about the inconsistencies of my theory and I’ll try to come up with something plausible .

There's just one problem with your theory. This certain red text from Eva: Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board.

[TsundereCake]

Originally Posted by Marion

Personally I'll do my best to avoid spoilers until the patch comes out. I probably won't even buy the game right away though - wondering if I should just wait until after December, when the 2nd answer arc comes out and then just buy the two of them. The wait is a lot smaller after all and I'll be focusing a lot on my entrance exams for college.

I'm having the same dilemma ;_; That $18 shipping is harsh. But I guess if I buy something else with Umineko I won't feel as bad. I'm still not completely sure though...

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Christen

There's just one problem with your theory. This certain red text from Eva: Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board.

It's possible that it applies to EP3 only, though, given the wording.

[unconfirmed]

Originally Posted by Christen

There's just one problem with your theory. This certain red text from Eva: Absolutely no factors other than humans participate in this game board.

Lol, I certainly remember that statement, but taking into account the context and the fact that it is hugely contradictory I chose to simply ignore it. After all, what kind of a witch would Eva-Beatrice be if she says that "absolutely no factors other than HUMANS participated in the game board" while trying to prove that a witch (who is not human) was behind the murders.

Anyhow, to answer your question...I still don't see how the theory violates that statement in red, but I'll clarify. As stated in Proposal 1, my theory is anti-fantasy. Therefore, nothing influences this "game" other than humans. In fact, I'm suggesting that meta-Battler is not even taking part in the game at all. What I mean is that Beato and all the supernatural beings + meta-Battler are part of a child's imagination, they play no role in the murders.

Let's say there are an X amount of game boards each with different scenarios of the incident. However, common sense says that there is only Oct. 4 and one Oct. 5 of the year 1986, that means history records only ONE Rokkenjima Massacre. So, even if Beato uses an X amount of scenarios to convince Battler, it'll never affect the fact that X=1 in the real world. Therefore, we can conclude that no matter what Beato does, supernatural or not, it is completely separate and has absolutely no affect on the real world.

EDIT: and I do hope my theory's wrong...that would mean Ryukishi is doing his job properly