(L) Freezing [Manga]

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape

The Legendary Pandora went crazy and killed Pandora on their own side in the Busters arc. They're highly unstable and susceptible to the transcendental will.

And why did that happen again? Because the Chevalier recruited a bunch of murders, illegally I might add, to kill someone, again illegally, for crimes he actually hadn't committed yet.

I'd argue he did. He even says later that he sent her away because she was going to learn about his secrets on her own.

Scarlett was his subordinate. He wasn't obligated to tell her anything.

She didn't purposely screw up in the E-Pandora arc after all.

She purposely did illegal human experimentation that caused the whole thing, so yes, she did purposely screw up.

Yeah let's wait for the guy with super powered alien daughters to get prepared for his coup d'etat. A preemptive attack was their only chance.

They could have arrested him. They could have denounced him publicly and then stopped him. They didn't do this, not because they were afraid of the Legendary Pandora, but because Gengo hadn't actually committed a crime yet, so they decided to kill him, judge, jury and executioner.

They took it. Both sides are the bad guys in this scenario. I'm not saying the Chevalier are good, but I am saying that Gengo is bad.

Chevalier is every government in the world, plus the world's largest corporations doing anything they want with no oversight. That's far worse than one man, no matter what he knows or how powerful his daughters are.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

Gengo withheld the Alien Equivalent of Humanoid Nukes from the organization he was a part of. That's enough precedent for them to want him gone. Also as you said in this very post, the Chevalier are the world's government. Running a side project without telling them would be a crime, just like what Scarlett did with the Maria Clones. So he did, in fact, already commit a crime.

Scarlet was forced to continue experimentation on the E-Pandora with the Mark IV by the Chevalier. What she was originally doing wasn't harmful to them. It just wasn't producing results. If she had been told by Gengo what Maria really was, she probably wouldn't have freaking tried to clone her. So no, nothing that was done by her during the E-Pandora arc was on purpose. She was just ignorant of the consequences thanks to Gengo. She was doing what she thought would prolong humanity. The same argument that is being used to defend Gengo applies to her too.

Lol at arresting the guy that has an entire school of Pandora, the Strongest Active Duty Pandora, 4 of the top 5 Pandora in the World, and the Legendary Pandora surrounding him. Gengo also wouldn't give two shits about being denounced since he has all the cards anyway. Killing him was the only way.

I disagree completely. It's like choosing between two shit-sandwiches.

I just want to reiterate though, creating the Legendary Pandora without telling the organization you're aligned with is treasonous. It's totally a crime.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape

Gengo withheld the Alien Equivalent of Humanoid Nukes from the organization he was a part of. That's enough precedent for them to want him gone. Also as you said in this very post, the Chevalier are the world's government. Running a side project without telling them would be a crime, just like what Scarlett did with the Maria Clones. So he did, in fact, already commit a crime.

And yet, when they brought him in to explain his actions, they let him go, so they obviously didn't think it was a crime. Even it was a crime, extralegal killing is not how you handle it.

Scarlet was forced to continue experimentation on the E-Pandora with the Mark IV by the Chevalier. What she was originally doing wasn't harmful to them. It just wasn't producing results.

"I was just following orders", is not a valid excuse. She knew what she was doing would hurt them and there would be no results from it. She did it all for her own ends.

If she had been told by Gengo what Maria really was, she probably wouldn't have freaking tried to clone her. So no, nothing that was done by her during the E-Pandora arc was on purpose. She was just ignorant of the consequences thanks to Gengo.

So Scarlett needed Gengo to tell her about the moral implications of cloning brainless people to use as drones? Or the practical issues of messing with things that she didn't understand?

Even a organization of scum like Chevalier didn't OK that experiment. Ignorance is no excuse.

Lol at arresting the guy that has an entire school of Pandora, the Strongest Active Duty Pandora, 4 of the top 5 Pandora in the World, and the Legendary Pandora surrounding him.

The school of Pandora weren't on his side until their superiors sent a bunch of murderers into their midst who killed their friends and started another Nova Clash.

I'll give you the Legendary Pandora and Su-Na, but strong as they are, they're only a handful of people, they can't fight the whole world.

Gengo also wouldn't give two shits about being denounced since he has all the cards anyway. Killing him was the only way.

So why send a bunch of disposable assassins to do it then? Why not send a whole battalion of Chevalier troops to occupy the place and kill him?

Because what they were doing was illegal and they didn't want it to stick to them. I don't know about you, but the idea of the government sending assassins to kill someone illegally, with no oversight is damn scary.

I disagree completely. It's like choosing between two shit-sandwiches.

If I have to choose between a cabal of government and big business that rule the world, and one man, I think the former is more dangerous.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

You're correct, the Chevalier actually overlooked his first treasonous crime (doesn't mean it wasn't a crime). They went after him because he forcibly detained multiple Pandora and refused to share data of the Nova Clash that had just occurred with them. He was also making a new independent organization and funneling money to it. That is straight up treason.

I find it hypocritical that Scarlett making clones is being seen as selfish and evil, but Gengo making borderline emotionless artificial humans that are immensely powerful is somehow okay. Scarlett wanted to outdo Gengo with the Maria clones, but she also wanted to fix the Pandora shortage with them. She deemed sacrifices had to made in the form of the E-Pandora. Her making Maria clones is no different from making the Legendary Pandora. They're both living weapons. I'll concede that what happened with the E-Pandora is unfortunate though. She was put in a tough spot, but figured all the lives that would be saved by the Maria clones would be worth the loss of the E-Pandora.

The Legendary Pandora could theoretically kill all of the other Pandora on Earth. They are immune to pretty much all volt weapons. The only things that have even damaged them are both under Gengo's control too (Rana and Arcadia).

They sent the assassin's to kill Gengo because it was meant to be a surprise attack. If they failed the Chevalier would put all the blame on Radox and say it was a fringe group. It had nothing to do with legality. It had to do with the Chevalier not being seen as blatant enemies of Gengo if they failed. Unfortunately they captured Sawatari alive which ruined everything. That's why they're not hiding it now. Plus those pesky Legendary Pandora are incapacitated so they couldn't pass up the chance.

I'll take a group with multiple mindsets and countries of origin over one guy and his family.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape
You're correct, the Chevalier actually overlooked his first treasonous crime. They went after him because he forcibly detained multiple Pandora and refused to share data of the Nova Clash that had just occurred with them. He was also making a new independent organization and funneling money to it. That is straight up treason.

Governments should not deal with treason by sending extralegal killers after people.

I find it borderline hypocritical that Scarlett making clones is being seen as selfish and evil, but Gengo making borderline emotionless artificial humans that are immensely powerful is somehow okay.

The Legendary Pandora at least have the capability to think and feel like normal people, Chiffon proved that. Scarlett was making literal brainless clones to use as biological drones. There's a huge difference.

They sent the assassin's to kill Gengo because it was meant to be a surprise attack. If they failed the Chevalier would put all the blame on Radox and say it was a fringe group. It had nothing to do with legality. It had to do with the Chevalier not being seen as blatant enemies of Gengo if they failed.

So why send a bunch of insane murderers then? Why not send a platoon of actual soldiers? Or even order the people already in the school to take him into custody? It's because actual soldiers might refuse unlawful orders. If what they were doing was legal, there would be no need for plausible deniability or worrying about being seen as Gengo' enemies.

They didn't have the guts to use the law on him, so they tried some shadowy nonsense. Once they did that, you can't say they were acting under their duly authorized authority, because they only have that authority to enforce the law.

I'll take a group with multiple mindsets and countries of origin over one guy and his family.

Dictatorships are bad whether it's one man or a committee.

If I have to choose between two dictators, I'll choose Gengo, the one that has more information, is demonstrably more capable, more moral and has less ability to screw over my and other people's lives.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

Governments don't have to deal with a guy that has four ridiculously powerful daughters. They were dealing with losing the entire planet to someone. There is no real world comparison to that. There was no other way to deal with him. He has way too much power.

Chiffon was an outlier, which is why she left and had nothing to do with Gengo. The other ones are pretty much his slaves. They're not much different from dolls/clones. They follow what their master wants them to do. They literally only care about the plan, Gengo, and Kazuya. Also Lucy is the only one that doesn't seem mentally deficient. The other ones weren't given a full range of emotions. Most likely because they were made to weapons, not people.

They sent decommissioned Pandora for the same reason they sent Radox. They didn't want to have it connected to them in case it failed. Plus, Radox was already gathering them to begin with. Again it had nothing to do with legality. The Chevalier run the world. They make their own laws and can cover stuff up. It had to do with them being scared of retaliation if Gengo survived. Also the Busters were given experimental equipment that made them stronger than any other soldiers the Chevalier had. That's a pretty important detail.

Saying that Gengo has morals is hilarious to me. He does whatever he feels is necessary for his plans to succeed. Morals be damned.

[Ramero]

Throughout the series itself, Legendary Pandora was made for defensive measurements if there are Nova threat. Even Gengo looks evil, he made a good path however the way of things that need to be changed. Gengo has to consider Kazuya's personal feelings itself since his son commit suicide because of Gengo himself.

Still, Chevalier made their blunder when they are about to attack West Genetics with half of their power and it turns out they can't even manage to contain Nova attack on the fleet.

What i'm curious is how Cassandra will interact with Satellizer since we may witness some changes that Cassandra may can link Satellizer into the world where Kazuya is right now. Gengo's morale already pay a price, he already lose his son by commiting suicide and surely if he doesn't look on his own morale, Kazuya will be next.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape
Governments don't have to deal with a guy that has four ridiculously powerful daughters. They were dealing with losing the entire planet to someone. There is no real world comparison to that. There was no other way to deal with him. He has way too much power.

That's a rubbish excuse. No matter how powerful Gengo is, that still doesn't give the government the right to use extralegal means to deal with him

Chiffon was an outlier, which is why she left and had nothing to do with Gengo. The other ones are pretty much his slaves. They're not much different from dolls/clones. They follow what their master wants them to do. They literally only care about the plan, Gengo, and Kazuya. Also Lucy is the only one that doesn't seem mentally deficient. The other ones weren't given a full range of emotions. Most likely because they were made to weapons, not people.

Cassandra, Windy May and Teslad have difficulties gaining emotions because of their high power, but it's not impossible, as Cassandra showed. The fact that they have to be kept in stasis so as not die prevents them from having human interactions, which retards their emotional growth. Lucy and Chiffon have less power and can gain emotions easier. The fact that they can stay out of stasis longer makes it even easier for them. All of them can gain emotion, unlike Scarlett's meat puppets.

They sent decommissioned Pandora for the same reason they sent Radox. They didn't want to have it connected to them in case it failed.

The government sending unsanctioned, extralegal killers after people is not a good thing. The big bosses wanting plausible deniability is not a good excuse no matter how you push it.

Again it had nothing to do with legality.

It has everything to do with legality, namely the fact that their actions have none.

It had to do with them being scared of retaliation if Gengo survived.

Not a good excuse for sending out extralegal killers.

Saying that Gengo has morals is hilarious to me. He does whatever he feels is necessary for his plans to succeed. Morals be damned.

He's certainly more moral than the Chevalier. Did you forget what happened during the E-Pandora Arc? When they tortured Elizabeth and sabotaged her family's company for dissenting?

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

This is really going nowhere at this point. You're fixated on how what the Chevalier was doing as being illegal and in the same post talk about their actions in the E-Pandora arc showing that they have no issues with doing illegal stuff. If anything that just supports my point that it had absolutely nothing to do with legality. Elizabeth's family was a pillar in the world and tried to leak the atrocities of the E-Pandora project to the public. They ruined her family for it (which is illegal). Then they tortured her into submission (which is illegal). They were also killing the E-Pandora just so they could prolong a failed project (which is illegal). They were going to murder all of the E-Pandora because they knew to much (which is illegal). The only reason anything happened to them at all is because Gengo and the El Bridgette family went and investigated it themselves. Even then the Chevalier just put it all on Marks Spencer. So why the heck do they care about legality now when the previous arcs show they do what they want?

As for the Legendary Pandora, they were originally made to be impregnated by Ryuuichi. He basically made them to increase his family empire. They had no say in the matter. Windy May acts like a 10 year old. Cassandra acts like her mind is somewhere else or like she has brain damage. Teslad is pretty emotionless. Lastly, Lucie is Gengo's happy lapdog. He made baby makers that obey his every wish, but yeah they're nothing like puppets at all.

Yeah Gengo's morals are totally in check. Dude makes daughters for his son to impregnate without telling him. He also took his son and Cassandra's rapebaby and still made her into a weapon. He allowed a bunch of Pandora and limiters to die in the 12th Nova Clash because he wanted to see how many Pandora would transcend. He cares little about lives or anything other than the plan.

Like I said though you're major point is that the attack of Gengo was set up the way it was because the Chevalier knew it was illegal. The manga made it clear in the E-Pandora arc that they do illegal stuff all the time. The only reason they had anything done to them is because Gengo and El Bridgette family are so influential. Even then the organization just blamed it on Marks Spencer and Radox resigned. Laws don't apply to them. If they had killed Gengo, they would've taken back over and covered it all up or branded Gengo a traitor the same way they did the Mably Family.

Also if you just going to respond with my reasoning is rubbish, I don't know what to tell you. This is all opinions. No matter where this discussion goes there's no wrong answer unless the manga straight up says one of us is wrong.

Edit - If the Chevalier were worried so much about the legality of Operation Cat Killer why the heck did they reinstate Isabella into the organization after the fact? Also they reinstated Radox as head of the Chevalier as well. Gengo has Sawatari, who knows Radox was behind it, and multiple people could identify Isabella. Doesn't really seem like they cared all that much about legality to me....

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape

This is really going nowhere at this point. You're fixated on how what the Chevalier was doing as being illegal and in the same post talk about their actions in the E-Pandora arc showing that they have no issues with doing illegal stuff. If anything that just supports my point that it had absolutely nothing to do with legality. Elizabeth's family was a pillar in the world and tried to leak the atrocities of the E-Pandora project to the public. They ruined her family for it (which is illegal). Then they tortured her into submission (which is illegal). They were also killing the E-Pandora just so they could prolong a failed project (which is illegal). They were going to murder all of the E-Pandora because they knew to much (which is illegal). The only reason anything happened to them at all is because Gengo and the El Bridgette family went and investigated it themselves. Even then the Chevalier just put it all on Marks Spencer. So why the heck do they care about legality now when the previous arcs show they do what they want?

So you admit that Chevalier is a dictatorship? So what right do they have to deal with Gengo then? Since they're a dictatorship, not a legal government Gengo has no obligation to play along with what they want. In a war between dictators, neither one is in the right.

Again, if I must choose between dictators, I'll choose the one that is not only more capable, but more moral.

As for the Legendary Pandora, they were originally made to be impregnated by Ryuuichi. He basically made them to increase his family empire. They had no say in the matter. Windy May acts like a 10 year old. Cassandra acts like her mind is somewhere else or like she has brain damage. Teslad is pretty emotionless. Lastly, Lucie is Gengo's happy lapdog. He made baby makers that obey his every wish, but yeah they're nothing like puppets at all.

We have seen that the Legendary Pandoras, even older ones like Cassandra, can develop emotions and their own will. That's much better than literal brainless meat puppets.

Like I said though you're major point is that the attack of Gengo was set up the way it was because the Chevalier knew it was illegal. The manga made it clear in the E-Pandora arc that they do illegal stuff all the time. The only reason they had anything done to them is because Gengo and El Bridgette family are so influential. Even then the organization just blamed it on Marks Spencer and Radox resigned. Laws don't apply to them. If they had killed Gengo, they would've taken back over and covered it all up or branded Gengo a traitor the same way they did the Mably Family

Why do you think they used the Busters? They could have used regular Chevalier troops equipped with Plasma Stigma, and if it failed, just offer up someone else as a scapegoat. There was no reason it had to be Radox, or the Busters.

They might be a dictatorship but they want to avoid rocking the boat too much. Ordering the illegal capture of a respected person like Gengo would be too much for them.

Yeah Gengo's morals are totally in check. Dude makes daughters for his son to impregnate without telling him. He also took his son and Cassandra's rapebaby and still made her into a weapon. He allowed a bunch of Pandora and limiters to die in the 12th Nova Clash because he wanted to see how many Pandora would transcend. He cares little about lives or anything other than the plan.

I never said that he was particularly moral, just that he was more moral than the Chevalier.

If the Chevalier were worried so much about the legality of Operation Cat Killer why the heck did they reinstate Isabella into the organization after the fact? Also they reinstated Radox as head of the Chevalier as well. Gengo has Sawatari, who knows Radox was behind it, and multiple people could identify Isabella. Doesn't really seem like they cared all that much about legality to me....

The situation has changed. Gengo has openly rebelled now, so they don't need to worry about plausible deniabilty or whatever Sawatari has to say.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

Woah there. Chevalier are an oligarchy. Dictatorship is one person. The Chevalier are an organization of people from multiple countries and wide reaching influence. They despite all their problems (which are numerous) are the representatives of the world. They helped fund all the research and provided the soldiers for the Pandora army. That gives them the right to know what they're funding. That gives them the right to know what was made in their labs. He wouldn't have been able to make anything without their help and resources. Gengo betrayed them, despite their help, that gave them the right. I'm not arguing that they're not incompetent morons, but they were justified in wanting him gone. He stole a bunch of the resources they paid for. He's basically occupying their property at West Genetics as well. If anything he is the invader.

The Chevalier are a legal government. They have Genetics locations and bases all over the world. The Pandora army answers to them. Gengo, while well regarded, is just their top researcher. He has no legal right to forcibly occupy their territory and hold their personnel hostage.

You'd rather Gengo, I'd rather the Chevalier. I'm cool with leaving it at that.

It may be better, but they're still puppets. That's the point I was trying to make. Gengo made them to fight and make babies. He has no high ground over Scarlett. They both made weapons to help with humanity's survival with little care for the moral implications. Scarlett just didn't see the point in giving weapons emotions, which could be seen as more or less cruel depending on your views.

You're comparing one guy to an entire organization though. Is he more moral than Radox? Probably. Is he more moral than Alfred Hughes? Probably not. The organization is made up of multiple mindsets and people. Howard el Bridgette is one of the most influential members and donors. At worst he and Gengo are equally bad. It's not really a fair comparison. That's another reason I'd choose them over Gengo every time. The good people in the Chevalier could eventually take over. With Gengo, it's just him.

So Gengo openly rebelled when he defended himself from an, in your opinion, illegal assasination? Or did I miss something. Isabella murdered Chevalier personnel along with the other busters. She also targeted and tried to kill students. If it was about legality those facts would still ruin the Chevalier. That's treason and war crimes for her specifically. I'm just going to have to say agree to disagree on this particular part of the discussion at this point. I've made my case and provided multiple points to support that they don't care about legality. You've made your case to the contrary. Neither of us have budged and I've ran out of points to make.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape

Woah there. Chevalier are an oligarchy. Dictatorship is one person. The Chevalier are an organization of people from multiple countries and wide reaching influence. They despite all their problems (which are numerous) are the representatives of the world.

I should have that they're both tyrannical then, I suppose. In any case, Chevalier are not the representatives of the world. The only thing they represent is their own self-interest.

You yourself admitted that they're doing all this illegal stuff, they have no oversight. A government that cannot follow the law cannot represent the people, and thus, is no form of government anyone has a legal or moral obligation to obey.

Gengo betrayed them, despite their help, that gave them the right. I'm not arguing that they're not incompetent morons, but they were justified in wanting him gone. He stole a bunch of the resources they paid for. He's basically occupying their property at West Genetics as well. If anything he is the invader.

Then they deal with it through legal means, not through extralegal. Rights can only be exercised legally, otherwise you're not actually applying them.

If someone robs you, you don't go into his house, rob him back and kill him and justify it by saying it's your right to do so because you got robbed.

The Chevalier are a legal government.

You can't have it both ways. If they're a legal government, then they need to handle things legally, if they don't, then they're a tyrannical government.

Your premise seems to be that it's bad for Gengo to be a tyrant because he's just one man, but Chevalier are better tyrants because they represent the people. That's impossible, because tyrannical governments are not representational. Never have been and never will be. Chevalier only represents Chevalier, and the people are OK with it because they scared of the Nova

It may be better, but they're still puppets. That's the point I was trying to make. Gengo made them to fight and make babies. He has no high ground over Scarlett. They both made weapons to help with humanity's survival with little care for the moral implications. Scarlett just didn't see the point in giving weapons emotions, which could be seen as more or less cruel depending on your views.

Seriously? The Legendary Pandora can develop free will, we saw that with Chiffon. Scarlet's puppets never can. Ever. Because she removed their brains. So yes, he does have the high ground over Scarlet.

You're comparing one guy to an entire organization though. Is he more moral than Radox? Probably. Is he more moral than Alfred Hughes? Probably not. The organization is made up of multiple mindsets and people. Howard el Bridgette is one of the most influential members and donors. At worst he and Gengo are equally bad. It's not really a fair comparison. That's another reason I'd choose them over Gengo every time. The good people in the Chevalier could eventually take over. With Gengo, it's just him.

It's just Gengo, yes. Until he dies and that's the end of him. Chevalier, as an organization can outlast him. You talk about moral people eventually taking over, and that's a possibilty. But tyrannical organization rarely, if ever change, due to decent people taking over internally, due to things like organizational status quo. We only need to look at real life to see that.

Kazuya is hardly going to follow in Gengo's ways, even if he does take over when he's gone.

So Gengo openly rebelled when he defended himself from an, in your opinion, illegal assasination?

It's not in my opinion, that was an illegal assassination. That is a fact. Where was Gengo's day in court? What judge ordered the assassination legally valid? Where were the duly appointed law enforcement officers that carried it out? There were none of those. Hence, illegal.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

They are representatives of the world that's a fact. The Chevalier is composed of many countries united in their mission to defend humanity against the Nova. Think of them as something similar to the United Nations. They are in fact a legal entity. That's not up for debate. Whatever you're getting at in the second line there is just nonsense. My government has some issues and has done sketchy illegal stuff, but that doesn't give me justification to ignore their laws. I mean really? I guess I should go steal a bunch of military secrets and take some soldiers hostage too. Actually straight up anarchy for the world if that the only justification needed.

As I said multiple times, Gengo is too powerful to charge with anything. Military crimes are handled differently from civilian ones. Gengo was hoarding military secrets and committed treason against the world. Thanks to his friend Alfred Hughes, he wasn't arrested on the spot and was able to get into a position where he was more or less untouchable. Sending a covert unit to kill him was the only chance they had at that point. They didn't have any other choice. There's no feasible scenario where Gengo would've ever surrendered. Especially with the Legendary Pandora at his side. By doing what he did, he declared war on them.

He doesn't have the high ground over her for shit. Chiffon was a clear enigma. That's why she thought Gengo was whack and left. The Legendary Pandora are freaking living weapons that are meant to enforce what Gengo wants them to do. Just because they can talk doesn't mean they're anything more than Novas in human skin. They are there to serve Gengo's plan. Just because he made his creations more appealing, doesn't make it any less disgusting.

Yeah because Nazi Germany still exists today. So does the USSR. Oh wait they don't. The bad people were taken care of and the countries changed for the better. Gengo wants his family line to take over after he's gone and continue his plan. Similar to North Korea.

Except Gengo was a valid military target. He was an traitor to the Chevalier and was attempting a coup de'tat. The Chevalier, which are again the countries of the world, agreed to take him out. I'm not sure why you think the highest level organization in the world needs permission from anyone when they decide on something. It's not even about an oligarchy at that point. Multiple country representatives agreed to it. Terrorists don't always get a day in court. Also taking over a military base gives them the right to use any force necessary to take it back. That's an act of war.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape

They are representatives of the world that's a fact.

Who voted for the El Bridget family to have such high authority? Who voted for Radox Phantomheim again?

Think of them as something similar to the United Nations.

Funny that you bring up the UN, because it's exactly because of concern like the ones I've brought up that the UN hasn't become a world government like the Chevalier

They are in fact a legal entity.

How do you have a legal entity that exists outside the law?

As I said multiple times, Gengo is too powerful to charge with anything.

This old canard. People have been using it since time immemorial to justify illegal acts. This guy or that guy or this group or that group is so dangerous that you can't deal with them legally, you must go outside the law to do it. That way lies tyranny. The law works for everyone or it doesn't work.

Military crimes are handled differently from civilian ones.

It's scary that you think this means the military has the right to unilaterally kill people.

He doesn't have the high ground over her for shit. Chiffon was a clear enigma. That's why she thought Gengo was whack and left. The Legendary Pandora are freaking living weapons that are meant to enforce what Gengo wants them to do. Just because they can talk doesn't mean they're anything more than Novas in human skin. They are there to serve Gengo's plan. Just because he made his creations more appealing, doesn't make it any less disgusting.

I'm starting to wonder if you've actually read this manga now. The Legendary Pandora at least have the capacity to become their own people. We've seen that. Scarlet's meat drones can't and never will. On the scale of morality, Gengo wins by a mile.

Yeah because Nazi Germany still exists today. So does the USSR. Oh wait they don't.

What's your point? Communist China still exists

I'm not sure why you think the highest level organization in the world needs permission from anyone when they decide on something.

I just believe in this little thing called the rule of law, that's all. Stuff that prevents the government from doing whatever the hell it wants.In the civiised world, the government can't just come together and decide to do something illegal

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

Howard is a donor, I'm honestly not sure what his position in the organization actually is. Radox was voted as head of the Chevalier presumably by the other members who were voted in by their countries.

Your views on the United Nations explain a lot.

Except that excuse is completely accurate in this case. When was the last time someone had the ability to take over the world in history? There is no scenario that Gengo doesn't take over as long as he's alive. That's fact. If he was charged he'd either refuse to leave West Genetics for court. If he was put in the prison the Legendary Pandora could just break him out. So please, tell me, how the hell else are the Chevalier supposed to deal with him? Bow down and accept their new overlord?

Don't put freaking words in my mouth. Military treason is a high offense. Treason against humanity is higher than that. Both are punishable by death.

Not only do I read the manga, but I actually am up to date on the English volumes so I can read the official translations. The Legendary Pandora are Nova. You said yourself that Chiffon and Lucy were powered down so they could be more human. The first 3 are there to do Gengo's bidding. Lucy also cares little for anything else, but the plan. Gengo doesn't win anything, he just made better drones. Which considering he had the blueprints to do so doesn't surprise anyone. For all this free will they seem to have, they really all do want exactly the same thing.

Communist China is just an alternate example, but it doesn't disregard my comparisons.

Except what Gengo did was already illegal. I really hope you not saying Gengo did nothing wrong. I thought your issue was with the punishment. I'd love to hear a scenario where Gengo was brought to justice from you too btw.

Edit - Speaking of which straight from the official English translation. Scarlett says "The Type Marias haven't yet developed a frontal lobe for independent thought!!" so they were not going to be mindless. The only reason they were was because they awoke before they were finished.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape
Radox was voted as head of the Chevalier presumably by the other members who were voted in by their countries.

So the head of the world government ascended to his position without anyone actually voting for him at any time, and I'm supposed to believe that this is a representative government?

Your views on the United Nations explain a lot.

What exactly do you mean by that?

Except that excuse is completely accurate in this case.

Excuses are always accurate when you apply them, that's why you don't allow any to begin with. That's how the law works.

I'm sure Chevalier used the same logic you did when they decided to torture Elizabeth. She's rich and popular, so it's too dangerous to allow her to dissent to us in public, so let's torture her into submission. it's all the same.

So please, tell me, how the hell else are the Chevalier supposed to deal with him? Bow down and accept their new overlord?

I don't care if they try to kill him, honestly. But do it properly. Don't do it in the dark to cover their own asses. Use actual law enforcement officers duly regulated to do it, not unsanctioned killers who happened to murder your own people as collateral damage.

Don't put freaking words in my mouth. Military treason is a high offense. Treason against humanity is higher than that. Both are punishable by death.

I'm merely repeating what you said. To convict someone of treason, you have to try them, even in absentia. There's a reason we have separation of powers in government, you know.

Not only do I read the manga, but I actually am up to date on the English volumes so I can read the official translations. The Legendary Pandora are Nova. You said yourself that Chiffon and Lucy were powered down so they could be more human. The first 3 are there to do Gengo's bidding. Lucy also cares little for anything else, but the plan. Gengo doesn't win anything, he just made better drones. Which considering he had the blueprints to do so doesn't surprise anyone. For all this free will they seem to have, they really all do want exactly the same thing.

Except that Cassandra, the oldest and most inhuman of them, managed to learn human emotion, so your theory is invalid. Making a drone that has the potential of free will is better morally speaking, than making one that never will.

Communist China is just an alternate example, but it doesn't disregard my comparisons.

Again, what is your point? That oligarchies are better than absolute dictatorship because organizations can change? I would think it's easier for a single successor to change from what his predecessor was than for a whole organization to over organizational bias to change.

You bring up he USSR and Nazi Germany as if those organizations changed entirely from the inside, but you ignore the significant external forces that also lead for them to collapse.

Except what Gengo did was already illegal.

Again, if what he did was illegal, deal with in a legal way, not an extralegal one

I really hope you not saying Gengo did nothing wrong.

I never said Gengo did nothing wrong, just that he's better than the Chevalier.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

The Head of Most Councils are voted on by members of said council. He was voted to the council by the people. One example I can think of is Speaker of the House in the United States.

You seem to not like the United Nations and because of that you came into this not liking Chevalier from the start. That's a completely baseless assumption though. Please don't take it personally.

Yeah, I guess you could be right, but when I can't think of a way I'd go about dealing with Gengo without killing him, I can't fault the Chevalier. I already explained why I thought they used the Busters (fear of retaliation), but it's like beating a dead horse at this point.

Elizabeth being tortured was awful and completely unnecessary. She could've just been detained for treason. They clearly had other options in that case. They had already ruined her family so I don't know why they thought they needed to torture her on top of that.

I edited it in so you might not have seen it, but I checked one of my volumes and discovered that the Maria clones were going to have independent thought, but were woken up too early. So really the Mindless Clones argument is dead. The manga confirms that's not true.

The USSR collapsed on itself. Nazi Germany already had dissenters inside the country trying to kill Hitler. The point is both those countries were ruled by single parties. So if they can change the Chevalier which is made up of multiple countries has a really good chance. They are made up of external forces. Gengo already is thinking ahead to how to keep his family in control until after his death. It's pretty scary.

I don't really have anything else to add to the whole legal/illegal argument anymore. I think the circumstances explain why they did what they did. No matter how stupid it turned out.

Edit - WOW I totally misread what you said about the United Nations. Disregard that entire statement.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape

The Head of Most Councils are voted on by members of said council. He was voted to the council by the people.

There is no evidence anywhere that Radox got voted in by anyone. If he was, they couldn't have reinstated him so easily.

One example I can think of is Speaker of the House in the United States.

... Really? Do you actually understand what the Speaker of the House does? Radox is more like the President, which is why it's so incredibly scary he got to that position without anyone voting for him.

If you're using America as an example, it's like if one of the Joint Chiefs was running the place.

You seem to not like the United Nations and because of that you came into this not liking Chevalier from the start. That's a completely baseless assumption though. Please don't take it personally.

That really is a baseless assumption, seeing that I have a huge amount of respect for the UN. The Chevalier and the UN have almost nothing in common.

My problem with Chevalier is that they are a lawless organization.

Elizabeth being tortured was awful and completely unnecessary. She could've just been detained for treason. They clearly had other options in that case. They had already ruined her family so I don't know why they thought they needed to torture her on top of that.

Using your logic, Elizabeth can't be detained because she was too popular or she'd be a martyr, so they need to torture her to keep her quiet. People in power can always, always find an excuse why someone doesn't deserve to be protected by the law, which is why in legitimate governments, we avoid that slippery slope altogether.

I edited it in so you might not have seen it, but I checked one of my volumes and discovered that the Maria clones were going to have independent thought, but were woken up too early. So really the Mindless Clones argument is dead. The manga confirms that's not true.

I'd have to look at the raw to confirm; it would hardly be the first time official translations have made mistakes.

I took a look at the chapter myself, and the clones we saw were full grown, so I wonder how the brains were not yet fully developed in them.

The USSR collapsed on itself. Nazi Germany already had dissenters inside the country trying to kill Hitler. The point is both those countries were ruled by single parties. So if they can change the Chevalier which is made up of multiple countries has a really good chance. They are made up of external forces. Gengo already is thinking ahead to how to keep his family in control until after his death. It's pretty scary.

Don't act as if the USSR or Nazi Germany collapsed entirely because of internal forces. External reason were what really caused it.

[GendoAizenPig]

@Endscape

There is no evidence of anything when it comes to Chevalier membership, but considering it's made up of multiple nations they had to earn their membership somehow. He was reinstated due to extreme circumstances. That's not evidence that he wasn't elected...like at all.

Yes, I understand what the Speaker of House does, no need to be condescending. I never even compared the jobs. I just listed another council like leader that is voted on by its members. You're again putting words that weren't there. It was a simple comparison to how he was voted as leader of the Chevalier by the other members.

False Equivalency on Elizabeth, I'm not taking the bait. Totally different situations.

I'm not even sure it's worth continuing this discussion if you're not going to admit you were wrong about the Scarlett making the Maria Types mindless, even when the official translation says you were. How could I convince you of anything when the source material can't even do it?

The USSR did collapse in on its self though. Its internal issues were just as much to blame as anything external. Germany obviously was mostly external, but it had internal disillusionment with Hitler as well. Operation Valkyrie is one such attempt to overthrow him.

Also I already said that I misread what you said about the UN. I'm not even responding to part because it was a misunderstanding.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Endscape

There is no evidence of anything when it comes to Chevalier membership, but considering it's made up of multiple nations they had to earn their membership somehow.

He and Gengo were once up for that job, so unless you're telling me Gengo once ran for public office then no, Radox is not a public official.

He was reinstated due to extreme circumstances. That's not evidence that he wasn't elected...like at all.

So why did he need to be the leader to help deal with Gengo again? If they needed his help, he could have consulted.

False Equivalency on Elizabeth, I'm not taking the bait. Totally different situations.

The situations aren't the issue. If you can justify not giving Gengo his rights, then you can justify not giving Elizabeth hers. That's why we have the law, so that the government cannot pick and choose who gets their rights today, based on the situation.

I'm not even sure it's worth continuing this discussion if you're not going to admit you were wrong about the Scarlett making the Maria Types mindless, even when the official translation says you were. How could I convince you of anything when the source material can't even do it?

I saw a translation that said different. I've seen official translations make mistakes too many times to view them as a sacred cow. If the raw supports your theory, I'll admit you were right.

The USSR did collapse in on its self though. Its internal issues were just as much to blame as anything external.

I could debate you on this, but this really isn't the place, so I'll agree to disagree.