(L+CR) Goblin Slayer

[Klashikari]

Why are you so obsessed about the fact the rape has any impact on the character of Goblin Slayer? The rape and all the violence were characterization of the goblins, which pretty much tell you that for trash mobs, they are no less cruel or depraved than demons and so forth. It is a much more straightforward portrayal of the goblins, compared to other fictions that show them like butt monkey mooks of a fantasy story. Ironically, the "outrage" about the episode validates the intention of the author: those scenes were there to give a sense of dread, disgust, etc regarding the goblins. Even if they are lvl1 critters that barely give any EXP or gold in a game, they are inherently vicious creature, hellbent to torment other races if they have the opportunity.

Goblin Slayer isn't even painted as a "DARK AVENGER" in this episode. He plainly does his job as his moniker/title implies. He was extremely methodic and barely show any emotion. GS didn't particularly react to any of the rookie demise whatsoever. He was basically Doomguy/Master Chief/Batman: extremely efficient, borderline mechanical in his actions. Does he have a grudge against Goblins, like Bruce Wayne for criminals? Who knows, but his backstory has nothing to do with the scenes presented in episode 1.

I'm not even sure why you think the rape scene had any impact on his character, while it was mostly for the goblins, and the Priestess to a certain extent.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Haak

What?

I don't know where you got that from but I'll guess i'll have to try and explain it again:

Say you have a theme that seeks to explore a relatabley strange nature of the world in which an endemic problem or societal threat is disregarded in favour of bigger problems justifiably or not.

And you want to show what the cost is to those who fall victim to such a dystopian world (in this case through goblin rape). Wouldn't you then want to show the perspective from those victims to get a better understanding of that human cost of ignoring an endemic problem? Maybe you don't need to do that, but what happens if you don't do that and instead just create rape victims as devices to characterise the main character as a cool dark avenger or to make an evil antagonist? Are you really using rape for an effective thematic purpose or are you just using rape to make a cool dark avenger/an evil antagonist?

1. My interest in such analysis is fairly limited. I don't read manga to get preached at.
2. I'm fairly certain that the author has no such pretentions. It isn't about underlining anybody's importance, whether it's the victims' suffering, the Goblins' cruelty or Goblin Slayer's heroism. It's all just... things that happen. Terrible as they are, goblins aren't the worst threat to humanity. Goblin Slayer isn't some Chosen One.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Why are you so obsessed about the fact the rape has any impact on the character of Goblin Slayer? The rape and all the violence were characterization of the goblins, which pretty much tell you that for trash mobs, they are no less cruel or depraved than demons and so forth. It is a much more straightforward portrayal of the goblins, compared to other fictions that show them like butt monkey mooks of a fantasy story.

I'm not, I'm just stating a fact. You don't need to get defensive about it. You were the one who claimed there was a larger thematic purpose to it and now you're moving the goalposts again by claiming it was just about portraying them as particularly evil.

And obviously the rape is used to characterise the goblins are particularly evil but my point was that the underlying reasoning (their biology) just comes off as a cheap excuse used to justify it's edgy existence when it otherwise wouldn't make sense. Like I said, there's no thematic reasoning behind it. It's just used to make the story dark and edgy.

Goblin Slayer isn't even painted as a "DARK AVENGER" in this episode. He plainly does his job as his moniker/title implies. He was extremely methodic and barely show any emotion. He was basically Doomguy/Master Chief/Batman: extremely efficient, borderline mechanical in his actions. GS didn't particularly react to any of the rookie demise whatsoever. I'm not even sure why you think the rape scene had any impact on his character, while it was mostly for the goblins, and the Priestess to a certain extent.

The author specifically said he based Goblin Slayer on Batman and The Punisher. They do what they do for a reason you know. It doesn't establish him as one this episode but we both know it aims to set him up as one. Remember you addressed my point based on the assumption of what we know past Episode 1.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

1. My interest in such analysis is fairly limited. I don't read manga to get preached at.
2. I'm fairly certain that the author has no such pretentions. It isn't about underlining anybody's importance, whether it's the victims' suffering, the Goblins' cruelty or Goblin Slayer's heroism. It's all just... things that happen. Terrible as they are, goblins aren't the worst threat to humanity. Goblin Slayer isn't some Chosen One.

1. You asked for my opinion. I'm not preaching anything.
2. Like I said, specifically creating characters just to be raped and them tossed away once you've delivered such a message isn't going to convince people. I'm not thinking "terrible things happen because it's a cruel world": I'm thinking "terrible things happen because the author wants it to".

[erneiz_hyde]

Personally I didn't really care much about the rape. But I'm guessing what he's saying is, rape is a tricky thing to use in fiction because it is a cheap emotional manipulator plot device. Not to belittle actual rape, I'm talking rape as a device to tell stories in fiction, kinda like how amnesia is viewed as an overused device. I have read in writing advice forum somewhere that as general rule, you can think of writers that depicted rape as a plot device as a third rate writer as a default. You can further examine that author based on how they actually used it, but the fact they actually used it is prone to higher standards of scrutiny. Which is why the general advice was "if you can portray something without rape, then don't". I'm guessing Haak is saying there is currently nothing about the rape in Goblin Slayer that justifies it's usage as a plot device that can't be portrayed by something else. CMIIW.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Haak

I'm not, I'm just stating a fact. You don't need to get defensive about it. You were the one who claimed there was a larger thematic purpose to it and now you're moving the goalposts again by claiming it was just about portraying them as particularly evil.

I'm not even sure why you think I moved the goalposts considering the following comments:
-It is used as a plot device to stir emotions to the reader, just like any other abject action or death of an important character.
-in GS case, violence and other elements portraying the goblins have an obvious purpose: that while people always think about Demon Lord, Dragons and other mythical monsters as threat for humanity, a more simpler but widespread enemy is often disregarded because "they are at the bottom of the evil ranks"
-The rape and all the violence were characterization of the goblins, which pretty much tell you that for trash mobs, they are no less cruel or depraved than demons and so forth.

You brought the "logical thematic" here, and that there wasn't any in such case. And that's where I disagreed: that plot device does work and falls within the thematic that "goblins are nasty critters", nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing special aside of portraying the archenemy under a very specific light for the purpose of the story at large, not just to make GS completely crazy about them.

Even if we were to ignore the extra justification of the author for this act, I don't see why it is so alien to have goblins doing that, hence why I mentioned D&D. Frankly, the subject of crossbreeding is hardly anything new in this kind of fiction, moreso when the relevant race doesn't care about others by a long shot.

The author specifically said he based Goblin Slayer on Batman and The Punisher. They do what they do for a reason you know. It doesn't establish him as one this episode but we both know it aims to set him up as one. Remember you addressed my point based on the assumption of what we know past Episode 1.

Yes, the author confirmed that. What's the relevancy of that information to the subject at hand?
I'm pretty certain I've mentioned elements exclusively brought by episode 1, except the breeding issue which was initially pointed out by people like Obelisk. In general, such scene and everything else that pertains goblins (cruelty and whatnot) pretty much define them on a world building aspect. That goes beyond to whatever happened to GS.

That's why I disagree with your claim that such scene was done to portray GS as a dark avenger or whatever you believe he is. Rather, that plot part was driving a very simple point about the antagonists of the series. I really doubt most would have read the interview and other notes of the author regarding the LN before watching the anime. Goblins are nasty and do not so nice stuff, noobs get stomped for their stupidity, and then we have a specialist. That's all there is to it.

And frankly, I don't see why rape victims MUST remain part of the cast to make the "rape worthwhile". The act itself has been done, it doesn't matter if that character survives and joins the main team in such case. Here, it pretty much tells you that no one is safe and that adventurers are also at the receiving end of such atrocities if they screw up. There wouldn't be really any additional value to have the Female Fighter to join the Priestess and GS on the journey at all. In fact, it adds another point to that situation: victims may not have the will to continue the adventure after such traumatic experience.
The Female fighter had a very precise role here, and while I can't say if it was the author intent all along, my initial impression of the anime before even reading the manga is that 1) shit happens and escalet quickly 2) villagers aren't the only potential victims. That procelain party was pretty much sacrificed narratively to explain that even adventurers fall prey to goblins. It wouldn't really resonate well with the audience if we were told by the priestess that "well, shit happens" without seeing first hand what kind of problem could happen with newbies against goblins.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I'm not even sure why you think I moved the goalposts considering the following comments:
-It is used as a plot device to stir emotions to the reader, just like any other abject action or death of an important character.
-in GS case, violence and other elements portraying the goblins have an obvious purpose: that while people always think about Demon Lord, Dragons and other mythical monsters as threat for humanity, a more simpler but widespread enemy is often disregarded because "they are at the bottom of the evil ranks"
-The rape and all the violence were characterization of the goblins, which pretty much tell you that for trash mobs, they are no less cruel or depraved than demons and so forth.

You brought the "logical thematic" here, and that there wasn't any in such case. And that's where I disagreed: that plot device does work and falls within the thematic that "goblins are nasty critters", nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing special aside of portraying the archenemy under a very specific light for the purpose of the story at large, not just to make GS completely crazy about them.

If you're entire argument boils down to "Rape is there to make Goblins particularly more than evil than they're usually portrayed" then you're only proving my point. Just creating characters to get raped only to toss them aside when the point is made is never going to come across as convincing. It's just going to come across as contrived. And what could be more effective at showing how evil they are than showing just how much damage rape actually does to the people involved?

Even if we were to ignore the extra justification of the author for this act, I don't see why it is so alien to have goblins doing that, hence why I mentioned D&D. Frankly, the subject of crossbreeding is hardly anything new in this kind of fiction, moreso when the relevant race doesn't care about others by a long shot.

Like I said, this kind of raping isn't something I've ever seen outside Japanese and game fiction.

Yes, the author confirmed that. What's the relevancy of that information to the subject at hand?
I'm pretty certain I've mentioned elements exclusively brought by episode 1, except the breeding issue which was initially pointed out by people like Obelisk. In general, such scene and everything else that pertains goblins (cruelty and whatnot) pretty much define them on a world building aspect. That goes beyond to whatever happened to GS.

That's why I disagree with your claim that such scene was done to portray GS as a dark avenger or whatever you believe he is. Rather, that plot part was driving a very simple point about the antagonists of the series. I really doubt most would have read the interview and other notes of the author regarding the LN before watching the anime. Goblins are nasty and do not so nice stuff, noobs get stomped for their stupidity, and then we have a specialist. That's all there is to it.

Oh, I see so you're allowed to talk outside the scope of Episode one but I'm not?

Not that it matters because the episode was clearly portraying him as a dark avenger.

Images

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If you want to look at these images and tell me with a straight face that they aren't trying to portray Goblin Slayer as a Dark Avenger then we might as well be done here because it's obvious to me that you aren't being honest with me.

And frankly, I don't see why rape victims MUST remain part of the cast to make the "rape worthwhile". The act itself has been done, it doesn't matter if that character survives and joins the main team in such case. Here, it pretty much tells you that no one is safe and that adventurers are also at the receiving end of such atrocities if they screw up. There wouldn't be really any additional value to have the Female Fighter to join the Priestess and GS on the journey at all. In fact, it adds another point to that situation: victims may not have the will to continue the adventure after such traumatic experience.
The Female fighter had a very precise role here, and while I can't say if it was the author intent all along, my initial impression of the anime before even reading the manga is that 1) shit happens and escalet quickly 2) villagers aren't the only potential victims. That procelain party was pretty much sacrificed narratively to explain that even adventurers fall prey to goblins. It wouldn't really resonate well with the audience if we were told by the priestess that "well, shit happens" without seeing first hand what kind of problem could happen with newbies against goblins.

It's not like much actually had to be done in making her an actual character. Just a few lines of dialogue and a bit of presence every now and then is really all that's needed. The fact that the story can't even do that much is what is the most telling thing really.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Haak

If you're entire argument boils down to "Rape is there to make Goblins particularly more than evil than they're usually portrayed" then you're only proving my point. Just creating characters to get raped only to toss them aside when the point is made is never going to come across as convincing. It's just going to come across as contrived. And what could be more effective at showing how evil they are than showing just how much damage rape actually does to the people involved?

That's where we have to agree to disagree then. That's the very reason why I likened that issue with violence and massacre: if you absolutely must have the victims to be relevant prior the deed, then you can just dismiss a large number of stories for being contrived under such terms.
Honestly, I don't see the difference of Titans munching nameless humans in Shingeki to be less contrived than girls being raped by goblins, with your criteria. Both pretty much convey the situation at hand by using cannon fodder in term of narration.
The former portray the precarious state of humanity at large, the latter expose the cruelty of the goblins past simply "looting and murder". Both are pretty much legit plot device that serve for their respective series at large.

Of course, I don't expect anyone to enjoy or accept rape as a narrative plot device, but my point is that it isn't gratuitious considering it fits the theme of the goblins as antagonists of the series. Could the author do without it? Certainly. But since he did, he pretty much hammered the evil part further, just like any sadistic display of the antagonists for other series.

Like I said, this kind of raping isn't something I've ever seen outside Japanese and game fiction.

Then that's pretty much an issue on your side. The fact a story presents plot points that aren't common with the series you have enjoyed before doesn't mean they "don't make sense". I mean there is even a half human, half goblin character in Harry Potter, so surely this can't be so rare in western literature. It isn't like JK Rowling invented anything there.

Oh, I see so you're allowed to talk outside the scope of Episode one but I'm not?

I indeed indulged myself mentioning that point as it was pointed and figured out by other members, but I believe I never based my reasoning mainly on this matter. In fact, this was an addendum so to speak, and my general argument was always the same, that the rape scene was there to drive more gravity to the evil nature of the gobins.

Not that it matters because the episode was clearly portraying him as a dark avenger.

If you want to look at these images and tell me with a straight face that they aren't trying to portray Goblin Slayer as a Dark Avenger then we might as well be done here because it's obvious to me that you aren't being honest with me.

Read again what I stated: I said that scene, the rape one, had no correlation to Goblin Slayer as a whole. Does he look like a dark avenger with those images? I'd be lying if I say no. However, did he react that way when he realized the fourth companion was a girl and she was pretty much being raped as they speak? No. Did he go vengeful after they saved the female fighter on the shaman? No. The story didn't spare us when it comes to the Priestess plight regarding her companions when she was with GS. But GS? He was calm from the very beginning to the very end, aside of that peculiar cuts with that deranged red eye. Past that, he was never overwhelmed by emotions, nor stirred after seeing the gruesome state of the warrior, or after mercy killing the wizard. No red eye, no change in tone, no shaking, absolutely calm and precise behaviour thoroughly.

My honest reaction to that terminator scene was pretty much the fact that he loathed their existence and that children must not be spared. That discussion with the Priestess pretty much exposed his intent to slaughter them, regardless the circumstances, be it good or bad goblin. But the first episode didn't really portray GS as being outraged by the fate of the porcelain adventurers.

I would agree if the scene had any visible impact on GS (so to trigger some empathy with the audience who probably hate the goblin guts for this scene). But it really didn't brought anything to his already methodical extermination. That's the very reason why I disagree with the assumption the rape scene was there to push a characterization on him, considering GS himself barely reacted to that.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Haak

2. Like I said, specifically creating characters just to be raped and them tossed away once you've delivered such a message isn't going to convince people.

Mind if I join the discussion a little? If you are referring to the mage, swordman and monk. They were tossed away because 2 are dead, and one is traumatized - and I mean traumatized for real, not the funny kind of traumatize that happen to Aqua in Konosuba.

I'm not thinking "terrible things happen because it's a cruel world": I'm thinking "terrible things happen because the author wants it to".

The gobs looted the village, reason = the gobs are evil.
The girls were kidnapped, reason = the gobs are evil.
The girls were raped, reason = the gobs need to breed and of course they are evil.
The noob adventurers were slaughtered, reason = they were overconfident, inexperienced, and unprepared.

I think those reasons are good enough, and not just because the "author wants terrible things to happen".

[Keila]

It's probably gotten to the stage in this discussion chain where (short of finding actual examples and posting them from other medium, which, for obvious reasons would not be a good idea) there's little meaningful dialogue to be had. If someone hasn't be exposed to something themselves it's probably not practical to convince them otherwise.


As ironic as this sounds, as far as I can tell (from Haak's reasoning) as long as goblin rape continues to be a consistent theme in the later episodes then rape would be perfectly fine and valid in episode 1 (and all subsequent instances). A single instance is bad but if it is a recurring thematic part of the story then it adds meaningful value to the narrative of the world by demonstrating a constant and real danger.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

And frankly, I don't see why rape victims MUST remain part of the cast to make the "rape worthwhile". The act itself has been done, it doesn't matter if that character survives and joins the main team in such case. Here, it pretty much tells you that no one is safe and that adventurers are also at the receiving end of such atrocities if they screw up. There wouldn't be really any additional value to have the Female Fighter to join the Priestess and GS on the journey at all. In fact, it adds another point to that situation: victims may not have the will to continue the adventure after such traumatic experience.
The Female fighter had a very precise role here, and while I can't say if it was the author intent all along, my initial impression of the anime before even reading the manga is that 1) shit happens and escalet quickly 2) villagers aren't the only potential victims. That procelain party was pretty much sacrificed narratively to explain that even adventurers fall prey to goblins. It wouldn't really resonate well with the audience if we were told by the priestess that "well, shit happens" without seeing first hand what kind of problem could happen with newbies against goblins.

I'm focusing on the bolded part.

I would argue that there is additional value if that is to happen. Writing-wise, it’s so much easier to just portray girl-characters being raped and then toss them aside from the main narrative with various excuses (pretty much anybody can do that). It’s harder to keep sticking to the rape victims and see how the horrible experience impacts their personalities afterwards and still make a compelling fantasy story out of it or with it or both. If a writer is successful in executing the second method then his/her writing is clearly above the level of the writer who just toss the rape victims aside.

[germanturkey]

there is already one character that has a traumatic past because of the actions of goblins. a second one wouldn't add too much to the story. for better or worse, the threat to the female members of the party adds more tension to the story than having it happen again to a survivor, which would leave an even worse taste in people's mouths.

[Marcus H.]

I wonder if the adventurer encounter was throwing shade towards the "casualification" of fantasy RPGs. Aside from the Martial Artist, the composition is reminiscent of the usual starting party in an RPG. (The Archer isn't around for obvious reasons. I mean, they are in a cramped cave. No room for drawing bows in that space, and crossbows that relied on a mechanized system are probably expensive for adventurers.) In a typical RPG, the party would have no problems dealing with goblins. But suddenly they found out that this is D&D, not your typical RPG, and so their fate is in the hands of the Dungeon Master and his fickle character.

And another thing: with the power of knowledge in a fantasy world like this, do you think Goblin Slayer is partially responsible for the deaths of many starting adventurers? I mean, he could have shared the information about goblins to the Adventurer's Guild and help spread awareness about the threat, but he kept everything to himself (and to his developing party, starting from the Priestess). If this was Maoyuu, where knowledge and technology quickly advances, goblins would have gone extinct. Maybe he was so deep into this goblin-slaying crusade that he wants ALL the goblins to die by his hand?

[KikeLyne]

So you are saying that goblins are allowed to use bows in caves because its small?

[Twi]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

And another thing: with the power of knowledge in a fantasy world like this, do you think Goblin Slayer is partially responsible for the deaths of many starting adventurers? I mean, he could have shared the information about goblins to the Adventurer's Guild and help spread awareness about the threat, but he kept everything to himself (and to his developing party, starting from the Priestess). If this was Maoyuu, where knowledge and technology quickly advances, goblins would have gone extinct. Maybe he was so deep into this goblin-slaying crusade that he wants ALL the goblins to die by his hand?

It doesn't work that way. Everyone is responsible for themselves, and those kids walked into it of their own accord, just like every other adventurer who goes out into the field. The closest thing to teaching is what he's doing for Priestess.

I swear, if they got eaten by the giant rats would people still have the same issue?

[Marcus H.]

So you are saying that goblins are allowed to use bows in caves because its small?

Small arms, small bows, and poison-tipped arrows.

I swear, if they got eaten by the giant rats would people still have the same issue?

It still falls to those with experience sharing what they know with other people, even if it may be inaccurate (see the many attempts to deal with bubonic plague).

[MrTerrorist]

Finally watch the 1st episode. A good adaption just like i remember when reading the manga version but thw addition of screams made it more disturbing. Can't wait for the 2nd episode.

[Skaddix]

Giant Rats have much the same issues...honestly there are two problems to me.

1) The Lack of Response, I expect Humans to come down far harder on a species that needs to reproduce by raping our women. In the Real World, that is typical reason to kill groups people and go full genocide on actual groups of humans. So I imagine that the response would be far worse on Goblins who don't even look human and absolutely need to rape to reproduce. Rats are bad sure but I guarantee if they reproduced like goblins in this series...we come down far harder on those plague spreaders in the real world. And unlike say Demons and Dragons where presumably you need a crack squad of Gold and Plat Heroes decked out in the latest magic gear and with the best potions...goblins seem far easier to put down with some proper training.

2) The other issue is of course party incompetence, common knowledge and total lack of Guild Training. As I said if this was an Isekai, I buy this party displaying such a flippant attitude to goblins. But the fact these characters grow up in this World well that is a lot harder to forgive.

[Wheeljack83]

I have yet to see a single good argument against the show or its content.

From Digibro's own mouth:

"The rape wasn't even that good."

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Giant Rats have much the same issues...honestly there are two problems to me.

1) The Lack of Response, I expect Humans to come down far harder on a species that needs to reproduce by raping our women. In the Real World, that is typical reason to kill groups people and go full genocide on actual groups of humans. So I imagine that the response would be far worse on Goblins who don't even look human and absolutely need to rape to reproduce. Rats are bad sure but I guarantee if they reproduced like goblins in this series...we come down far harder on those plague spreaders in the real world. And unlike say Demons and Dragons where presumably you need a crack squad of Gold and Plat Heroes decked out in the latest magic gear and with the best potions...goblins seem far easier to put down with some proper training.

We don't know how goblins are dispersed throughout this world. All we know so far is that they showed up near some frontier village. If that's where they're concentrated, I can believe the powers that be not stirring themselves to eradicate goblins.

2) The other issue is of course party incompetence, common knowledge and total lack of Guild Training. As I said if this was an Isekai, I buy this party displaying such a flippant attitude to goblins. But the fact these characters grow up in this World well that is a lot harder to forgive.

The party leader had a successful experience fending off goblins, I don't think its odd that a prospective dragon slayer like him or the others not giving goblins the caution they deserve.

Goblins wiping parties might be common knowledge, but young people have a bad habit of not applying common knowledge to themselves.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Wheeljack83

I have yet to see a single good argument against the show or its content.

From Digibro's own mouth:

"The rape wasn't even that good."

..........please tell me he didn't actually say that