[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[LyricalAura]

Spoiler for big image:

Originally Posted by haguruma

What's Will saying there in response when the goat tries to quote Knox 1 at him? I can more or less make out the meaning of the red, but the black's got too many kanji I don't know.

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Do you have the red truth in japanese?

Example for the boundary human being important: 1967年の六軒島の隠し屋敷に、人間としてのベアトリーチェさまが存在した　

One of the few times where the word human instead of servant (使用人) is used in reference to a servant: 嘉音の名を名乗ることが出来るのは本人のみ！　異なる人間が名乗ることは出来ない！

Perspective talking: 我こそは来訪者ッ、六軒島の１８人目の人間ッ！！！
そなたを迎えても、
１７人だ。

Richard.
You know why? Cuz, there is connection.

So by your logic, John is dead.

Anyway, Shkannon cannot solve EP3 in a human way.

The true culprit (the person who is the vessel for Kanon, Shannon, Beatrice, etc.) decides to start killing people during the first night like always.
- At least one pair of parents is bribed by the culprit before the game starts (likely Rudolph and Kyrie).
- The servants are killed except for Genji who exists on as Ronove (Kumasawa tried reasoning with the culprit as shown in the battle with Virigilia, Gohda is a liability).
- The culprit poses as dead Shannon in the parlor and uses the order of the locked rooms to change places and pose as dead Kanon in the church.
- Eva solves the epitaph and gains the ring of headship from the culprit.
- Rosa is lured to the garden by Maria.
- Rosa is killed by the culprit and Maria (though the culprit loves her) needs to be silenced.
- Kyrie, Rudolph, and Hideyoshi are shot down during an ambush in the mansion
- George is lured outside by the culprit who to him is Shannon, but the true culprit kills him nonetheless
- Natsuhi and Krauss get knocked out and strangled to death because they saw the culprit leaving with George
- the culprit poses as a dead Shannon when the survivors arrive but leaves the 07151129 code for Eva who solved the epitaph
- Nanjo is silenced because he helped lock the windows again after George left the guesthouse

What is so non-human about this solution?

Also, there is no human explanation about such a desease, where a human can kill it's personalities when he wishes too, and we don't even have an explanation about such an illness. It's not a detective solution, where you can use only common things that are in the real world or something given by the author.

I think you are under the mistaken assumption that the culprit assumes these roles to be real people. They feel like real lives to him/her because of the time spent living as them, but they are still just roles that can be changed and discarded at will.
That's why I find "personalities" the wrong word, they are the ultimate form of giving "a way of life" form. My behavior at work and at home are completely different but that doesn't mean I regard them as being separate people.

And concerning detective stories, what you wrote is nonsense.
Read, And Then There Were None, A Murder is Announced, Hercule Poirot's Christmas (all Agatha Christie), The Hollow Man, The Burning Court (both John Dickson Carr), The Zodiac Murders (Shimada Souji), Murder in the Decagon Mansion, Labyrinth Mansion and Doll Mansion (Ayatsuji Yukito), The Inugamis (Yokomizo Seishi) and several other famous pieces of classical detective fiction. Identity tricks have been a staple since very early on.

Yasu seems just like an angry mass murderer, yet the red truth says otherwise.

Where does it say that?

And what do you count when it's down to the 17 people? Bodies? Then please say who's body killed nanjo.

The body that formerly inhabited Shannon and Kanon and is at the same time used to give Jessica the illusion of being rescued by Kanon.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

She is the 18th person, in the imaginary Bern\Lambda game:

I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

Try again.
Any other red truth?

Yet, even including you, there would be 17.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

What's Will saying there in response when the goat tries to quote Knox 1 at him? I can more or less make out the meaning of the red, but the black's got too many kanji I don't know.

As far as I understand that part, the goat is spouting: Then...then one of the characters was killed prior to the incident and culprit X sneaked in impersonating them...
To which Dlanor replies with Knocks 1st : It is forbidden for the culprit to be anybody not mentioned in the early parts of the story.
And Will's reply at the bottom is along the lines of, "I'm sorry, but this had already been stated since the very first game."
At least that's what I understand out of it.

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by Valkama

This applies to all games!!!


Who said that? Beatrice. How many games she hosted? 4.

Originally Posted by Valkama

[COLOR="Red"]18th person is simply a title given to Erika as it is assumed that there were 17 people on the island beforehand and she then becomes the 18th assumed person on the island.

Red truth isn't about assuming. It a perfect truth. She is the 18th human in the 5 and 6 game, where she exists.

Example for the boundary human being important:

Screenshoots would do a betted job.

What is so non-human about this solution?

Human X isn't a solution.
I can make a Sakutarotrice theory and blame a human X, and it would be more revelant then shkanon.

these roles

There is no such thing as roles in a murder mystery. If there would, it would be written in the novel EP1-EP4.

that doesn't mean I regard them as being separate people.

And you have 1 name anyway, I suppose.

Where does it say that?

I'd like to hear you version of Shkanon's motive.

is at the same time used to give Jessica the illusion of being rescued by Kanon.

Could you teach me that? You speak about a supernatural think like a thing everybody could. Knox forbidds using supernatural explanations of anything in a detective story.

Yet, even including you, there would be 17.

Yup. There are 17 humans in EP1-EP4, and 18 in EP5 and EP6.

Battler rejected her existence, since she was a living dead anyway.

Why did she say 18 in red, not 17?
Red is truth. It's not a thought. It absolute truth.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Red truth isn't about assuming. It a perfect truth. She is the 18th human in the 5 and 6 game, where she exists.

Doesn't Erika actually say something about the 17/18 paradox in the EP8 manga during her duel with Battler? I don't remember the exact wording, but her solution was something along the lines of "I was the 17th by number of bodies, but the 18th by number of names".

[jTiKey]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Doesn't Erika actually say something about the 17/18 paradox in the EP8 manga during her duel with Battler? I don't remember the exact wording, but her solution was something along the lines of "I was the 17th by number of bodies, but the 18th by number of names".

If you don't remember well, please go and first reread that episode, and come back with proof in the form of a screenshoot.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

There is no such thing as roles in a murder mystery.

You have clearly not read many murder mysteries.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

If there would, it would be written in the novel EP1-EP4.

That's handy, because they were written there, along with information about furniture, and mysteries which can only be solved using personality "death". ShKanon is a solution which people had already been able to guess long before Umineko Chiru even started. I believe some people had already guessed it by ep 2; you cannot claim that it's something which is impossible to work out using the early episodes.

jTiKey, have you got any response to the following manga screenshot from ep 8? I don't believe you've addressed it. It's something which confirms ShKanon outright.

Originally Posted by musouka

[jTiKey]

Umineko Chiru even started. I

I've answered this before.

only be solved using personality "death"

It can be solved without it. If you can't solve something a normal way, that doesn't mean, that you must start using paranormal explanations.
Rosatrice does explane all well.

"It's something which confirms ShKanon outright."
I've answered this before too.

Also, confirmation is nothing, if ShKanon can't explane Nanjo's death in a normal way.
There are confirmation that Eva is the culprit. So what?
A theory is right, if it doesn't contradict the red. Who cared, that is has a confirmation or two, if it cannot explane whodunnnit, howdunnit and whydunnit?

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Who said that? Beatrice. How many games she hosted? 4.

Red truth isn't about assuming. It a perfect truth. She is the 18th human in the 5 and 6 game, where she exists.

Why are you avoiding the subject. It's a perfect truth that Beatrice statement applies to all games. To deny this is to deny the entire foundation of every argument you've made in this thread.

Also Erika can have the title of an 18th person because she was considered to be the 18th person. The Red is still a perfect truth, it's context is just blurred.

Hi, pleased to meet you! I am Furudo Erika, the detective!! I may be an uninvited guest, but please, welcome me!!
I am the visitor, the 18th human on Rokkenjima!!

If you look at her statements in context she's just naming off all of her titles.
My blue truth works because multiple interpretations of a single truth are allowed.
Also,
if you interpret this red literally you violate Beatrice's Truth from Game 4. It's been shown that truth from game 4 carries over to game 5 with people recognizing Kinzo. Therefore Erika cannot in the most literal sense be the 18th human body on the island because the perfect red truth denies it.

[jTiKey]

Valkama, there was an addendium about Erika at the beggining of EP5.

She exists only after game 4. She doesn't influence games 1-4. How can she be a counted as a human, if she doesn't exist?

Erika is the 18th human on the game boards she exists in. But she doesn't exist in Beato's games.

Actually all this doesn't matter, cuz there is no name for the Nanjo murderer. :3

[Valkama]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Valkama, there was an addendium about Erika at the beggining of EP5.

She exists only after game 4. She doesn't influence games 1-4. How can she be a counted as a human, if she doesn't exist?

Erika is the 18th human on the game boards she exists in. But she doesn't exist in Beato's games.

Actually all this doesn't matter, cuz there is no name for the Nanjo murderer. :3

Beato made the rule that no more than 17 humans are allowed to exist and that it goes across all games(Even those not played yet. After all isn't all red perfect?) Red from EP4 carries into EP5 and this is shown in EP5 itself. 18th human bodies simply aren't allowed to exist on the island period. Regardless of Erika's effect on 1-4. Regardless of the Game master.

The red truth is absolute!! A perfect truth, which no one can overturn no matter how hard they try!!
Even the ending says no one can overturn it. Not even Lambda in the 5th game :3


Also regarding nanjo's murder:
Maria: George onii-chan couldn't kill an adult. He could kill a kid though.

Maria isn't the culprit so George simply can't kill adults.

Battler states in EP8's manga that a truth like this applies to his character an thus is present across all games despite only first appearing in EP8.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

I've answered this before.
..


I've answered this before too.

Although I've read the past few pages, I didn't see any adequate explanation of your apparent claim that it is impossible to solve eps 1-4 with ShKanon in the early episodes. Especially given that we all know for a fact that people did solve those eps with ShKanon at the time.

I have also not seen you adequately address the issue of how you can explain away the outright confirmation of ShKanon in Chiru.

If you do have arguments you believe can address those, would you consider re-stating them more clearly or at least quoting them?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Also, confirmation is nothing...Who cared, that is has a confirmation or two, if it cannot explane whodunnnit, howdunnit and whydunnit?

Confirmation is confirmation, and it can't be handwaved away that easily. Essentially, what you're saying there is that although ShKanon is confirmed beyond doubt, you don't like it and are choosing to ignore it.

You're free to do so, but you can't also claim that you are arguing logically and rationally and expect people to respect your arguments.

Originally Posted by jTiKey

Rosatrice does explane all well.

Could you outline your Rosatrice theory for us, in your own words? Most of the Rosatrice theories we've seen here have been deeply flawed, so just saying "Rosatrice" isn't helpful.

[jTiKey]

Could you outline your Rosatrice theory for us, in your own words? Most of the Rosatrice theories we've seen here have been deeply flawed, so just saying "Rosatrice" isn't helpful.

KnowNoMore did it excelent in an hour video(It is the 2nd part where he explanes the howdunnit). Why must i copy paste it here? There is a Rosatrice wiki page being written. You may read it whet it will be done.

I came here only for the 3rd game. I got no who, how and why. Other things don't matter. Thank you for the confirmation.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Valkama

Also regarding nanjo's murder:
Maria: George onii-chan couldn't kill an adult. He could kill a kid though.

Maria isn't the culprit so George simply can't kill adults.

Battler states in EP8's manga that a truth like this applies to his character an thus is present across all games despite only first appearing in EP8.

Wow, I hadn't heard this before. Just to make sure I understand this right - this means that the character-based purple text wasn't limited to just that one game, and it applies through all of them?

Originally Posted by jTiKey

KnowNoMore did it excelent in an hour video(It is the 2nd part where he explanes the howdunnit). Why must i copy paste it here? There is a Rosatrice wiki page being written. You may read it whet it will be done.

I came here only for the 3rd game. I got no who, how and why. Other things don't matter. Thank you for the confirmation.

Firstly, you can't expect people to go and spend hours on limited bandwidth looking at videos online.

Secondly, KnownNoMore's theory has been analysed and thoroughly discredited here multiple times before. By this point, it's dull. So, I wanted to know whether your theory was any different, and to give you the opportunity to outline and defend your theory on your own terms. Rather than saying "This other guy's long, inaccessible theory is mine and is perfect, go and look at that" you could outline the theory as you see it and then defend it using your own skill. That way, we would know which parts of the theory you consider essential, and you could discuss and defend the theory. Just pointing to somebody else's theory in this curcumstance is not so conducive to discussion.

For example, you appear to take the position that Rosatrice theory has a perfect who, how, and whydunnit. But you have not explained why you think that, only pointed to KnM.

...Wait, you're here only to talk about the third game? This is the spoilers, theories and interpretation thread, not the ep 3 thread. If you want to talk only about things which are mentioned up to ep 3, denying the existence of the further games in any way, this is the thread you want: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=68453

If, however, you want to argue in a way that does not pretend that facts that you don't like exist, stopping engaging in the "lalalala I can't hear you, who cares about the facts" school of argument when people remind you of them, you could stay in this thread. But that's entirely up to you.

[jTiKey]

spend hours

It's an hour, if not less.

it's dull

Everybody has an opinion. Still, it fits the red truth well.

this is the thread you want:

I asked for a name. I don't think anyone would do that even there. It's not the topic. It's the red truth, that prohibit's it. Though, maybe I'll give it a shoot.


Anyway, thank you for your attention.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

KnowNoMore did it excelent in an hour video(It is the 2nd part where he explanes the howdunnit). Why must i copy paste it here? There is a Rosatrice wiki page being written. You may read it whet it will be done.

I came here only for the 3rd game. I got no who, how and why. Other things don't matter. Thank you for the confirmation.

Oh boy you subscribe to his point of view.

Arguing with your types is horrible because its literally arguing with irrational actors. Reason doesn't work so whats the point of arguing in the first place?

e-I'm pretty sure Renall posted an in depth summary of the thing knownomorers have to answer before the theory holds any water. I'll see if I can find it.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by jTiKey

I asked for a name. I don't think anyone would do that even there. It's not the topic. It's the red truth, that prohibit's it.

Sorry, I don't know what you're talking about in the above quote at all. What name are you looking for, and why do you want it?

[GreyZone]

Why are you still trying to argue with him? Report him for flame-baiting and stop that pointless discussion that only goes in circles. There is absolutely no rational reason to continue this discussion as you will absolutely never be able to change his opinion, because he only tries to get attention and most likely does not even really have an opinion.

[Cao Ni Ma]

Found Renall's post about the rosatrice theories. Knock yourself out kid:

Originally Posted by Renall

Of course that theory can be dismissed out of hand simply for cherry-picking its "facts," particularly from ep7 and ep8. Rosa does make a more compelling culprit than many by nature, but the fact of the matter is that there's just very little to actually suggest she has the necessary background to do what is done to the victims after death. It also has trouble accounting for the truth of Shkanon, which we pretty much have to accept even if we don't like it as a culprit theory.

Essentially a coherent Rosatrice theory would have to:

• Cite actual dispository evidence of her mystery background and association to Battler.
• Account for why Shkanon is true (and why it's even happening) but why all the things that point to Shkanon/Yasu as Beatrice are misleading.
• Explain either how Rosa can be the culprit on all game boards or why Shkanon or someone else is being used as a gameboard culprit to cover for Rosa (and how evidence on the boards actually proves this).
• Provide a coherent explanation for why neither Eva nor Battler would wish for information of Rosa's involvement to go public, and why Eva would refuse to even tell Ange about it in private.
• Explain both how ep7 applies to Rosa, why it's presented the way it is, what textual evidence proves it's strictly metaphorical and/or related by second degree to the actual culprit, and why Clair accepts Will's answers.
• Provide coherent rationalization for how someone as impulsive as Rosa managed to outwit her considerably sharper siblings (she doesn't do so hot in the ep7 Tea Party, for example) and everyone else, while sometimes being dead.
• Address the additional information provided in Our Confession and the manga that shows a near 1:1 correspondence of Yasu to Beatrice, such as the ep8 manga suggesting Shannon and Beatrice use the same spraypaint trick, or the extra material detailing Beatrice's conversation with Natsuhi about the baby.
• Oh right, address the baby.
• Not use any of the information pertaining to Bern's gameboard in ep8 unless it can be demonstrated that it is relevant and all rules from the board are accepted if any rule from the board is used (e.g. if you're going to cite to it, you also have to accept things like Shkanon and George only being able to murder children).

KNM attempts to do some of these things, but falls flat on others or reaches for very flimsy explanations for others (the ep7/ep8 stuff especially). I'm sure it's possible, but it runs up on a lot of issues. Shkanon is basically a case of "stupid, but apparently true." It's understandable why people would look for a better solution; it's easier than accepting that the one we got wasn't good. That doesn't mean that better solution actually exists in the text. In fact, if Rosatrice were true I'd argue it makes the ending of the work even worse, because it fails to address that point and make sense of it in its entirety. At least we got some resolution to the Battler/Yasu thing in ep8.

But hey, if you don't like the answer, write a nine-hour video or fan episode about it. He kinda left the door open for that in Dawn. Then got mad about it later I guess, for some reason.

[Valkama]

Well jTiKey if all you want is a name I'd just say Beatrice is the killer of Dr. Nanjo :P

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

Wow, I hadn't heard this before. Just to make sure I understand this right - this means that the character-based purple text wasn't limited to just that one game, and it applies through all of them?

According to Battler there are two types of Red Truth, those that apply to individual games and those that apply to every game. A characters trait would be something that exists throughout all games like Georges ability to kill adults. In the 8th game Bern said the Purple has the power of red in the hands of someone who isn't the culprit. Most purple only applies to the 8th game but a few purples talk about character traits.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

There is absolutely no rational reason to continue this discussion as you will absolutely never be able to change his opinion, because he only tries to get attention and most likely does not even really have an opinion.

Combination of curiosity about what would happen if jTiKey had to outline and explain Rosatrice theory, a vague hope that debate can sometimes be helpful even if it doesn't look that way at first, and general argumentativeness. Since Cao Ni Ma has kindly quoted a post about things a coherent Rosatrice theory must explain for jTiKey to either respond to with rational arguments or not, there's now a good opportunity to see how that will go.

Originally Posted by Valkama

According to Battler there are two types of Red Truth, those that apply to individual games and those that apply to every game. A characters trait would be something that exists throughout all games like Georges ability to kill adults. In the 8th game Bern said the Purple has the power of red in the hands of someone who isn't the culprit. Most purple only applies to the 8th game but a few purples talk about character traits.

Hmm. So it's an issue of whether essentially-reds about character traits in Bern's ep 8 game apply to the rest of the game.