US Elections 2016 Part II: The Debates & General Election

[Ithekro]

The thing is, providing thousands of hacked e-mails from the Democratic Party to WikiLeaks does not make those leaks not true. The argument is that Russia helped with this, not that the information wasn't true, nor that that information deterred voters from voting for Clinton.

The number of voters is less than 2008, bit not all that different from 2012. So unless the Russians or other sources have been a problem for a decade or so, this doesn't really change all that much about the election, nor the results.

The oddity of the election is that the voting results from the majority of the states (electoral votes) outweigh the popular vote of the total number of states, mostly because the country is divided roughly 50-50 and the state that overwhelmed the popular vote numbers, California, doesn't speak for the whole country even though its 55 votes went for Clinton, its extra millions of votes only bloat the popular vote while not winning Clinton the election. The last time we have a pair of electoral vote wins over the popular vote in close proximity was also when the country was divided about 50-50 near the end of Reconstruction as the Southern States rejoined the Union and their grievances started to matter again. By that point the ex-slaves were now counted as a whole person, so those state's electoral votes increased in number. Even after all the death of the Civil War.

[Brother Coa]

It's not that, but the fact that Russia can successfully hack US and get away with it.

If that is true than US is not a superpower anymore as Russian hackers can cripple it in minutes and render all their economy and military useless since everything today is connected in some way to the internet. Even the internal newt work usually have some single port hat connects to the web in case of information exchanging.

If Russians can really hack US elections ( no small feat mind you ) and get away with it then I cannot imagine what they can do in case of preemptive strike. Worst thing is that Chinese hackers are presumably better than Russian.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Those of us that were Anti-Trump and Anti-Clinton see a lot of irony in the two sides choice of words as they attack each other, and even more so the irony of the two sides now verses 2008 when the two similar sides were talking about Obama entering office. Some of the same wording by from the opposite side of the political spectrum. All that changed was the sides flipped. The words are the same.

You sure like to commit the false balance fallacy quite a lot.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The thing is, providing thousands of hacked e-mails from the Democratic Party to WikiLeaks does not make those leaks not true. The argument is that Russia helped with this, not that the information wasn't true, nor that that information deterred voters from voting for Clinton.

This is like arguing that the Comey stuff didn't impact Clinton despite her not being convicted of any crime. A lot of it is optics. Dump tons of information that the media slobbers over and it makes her look bad. The information in the leaks wasn't particularly damning, but people sure had a field day twisting the information into their own lies and narratives that helped to paint a negative picture of the candidate.

There is no doubt that if you were a fence sitter about Clinton's supposed corruption during the election that these bad optics and misinformation campaigns helped tip the scale.

We also have no official way to determine if all the hacked emails are ALL true or not. When you have thousands of hacked emails (most of which are true) it's easy to make a few convenient inclusions or edits. Regardless the hacking had a goal, whether or not you believe that goal was archived is for you to decide.

[The Green One]

So the CIA says Russia hacked the election. It could even be true. Why are you all acting like this will even matter? Trump is already 85% installed into office. The country isn't going to spend the time or money to hold an additional election at this point. The Democrats will Huff and Puff and stamp their feet and complain. Trump will scream, rant, and rave and write derogatory remarks on Twitter and Russia will say how they're shocked and appalled at how the US could make such an obviously wrong accusation about them and their supposed part in their good pal's victory and Trumps installation as President will go on as planned.

Nothing will change, regardless if this is true or not.

[Ithekro]

You sure like to commit the false balance fallacy quite a lot.

No. I have been listening for many years now, and am now hearing the same things, just from the opposite sides supporters mouths. Both the pro and the con from both party supporters. The Democratic supporters are sounding like the Republican supporters have been since 2008, and the Republican supporters are sounding like the Democratic supporters over that same period of time.

I fully expect a similar meme to "Thanks Obama" within the next two years for Trump and it will be overplayed both by Democratic diehards, and Republican trolls.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Serovectra

Have none of you made idle threats in the heat of the moment before? It's as if you guys want to see her in prison, and that prosecuting her was the right choice. Trump lets emotions get the best of him, and it is something he needs to work on.

Because he runs for the highest office in a well-respected democracy that has history behind it, letting emotions get the best of him like that is not something anyone can afford, especially when he implied a violation of basic democratic rules.

The amount of bigotry in this thread is mind-boggling, and I'm seeing a lot of terrible people in here, as you like to put it. Belittling those with a different viewpoint from your own just makes you a sore loser and a bigot.

Just piss off. It's not people's fault when the orang-utan is the one who spits crap from his mouth with audio and video archives in support. The guy is Exhibit A, B, C, and so on. Anyone who pulls out excuses for that is plain pathetic in this day and age. No excuses and no compromises for that shit.

[The Green One]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Because he runs for the highest office in a well-respected democracy that has history behind it, letting emotions get the best of him like that is not something anyone can afford, especially when he implied a violation of basic democratic rules.

Considering he won the election he seems to be able to afford it just fine sadly.

[Serovectra]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Because he runs for the highest office in a well-respected democracy that has history behind it, letting emotions get the best of him like that is not something anyone can afford, especially when he implied a violation of basic democratic rules.

We're a democratic republic. Trump does let emotions get the best of him, but Clinton always appears scripted and fake to me. Neither is better than the other.

Just piss off. It's not people's fault when the orang-utan is the one who spits crap from his mouth with audio and video archives in support. The guy is Exhibit A, B, C, and so on. Anyone who pulls out excuses for that is plain pathetic in this day and age. No excuses and no compromises for that shit.

When you have to revert to name-calling like some pre-pubescent schoolboy, it doesn't help to get the point across. You can throw whatever dirt you want at Trump, but when you attack those that voted for him it just makes them less likely to see it your way the next time it matters. How you perceive his supporters is very different from reality. There are bad apples on both sides of the spectrum, but the people who voted Trump in are not much different than the people who wanted Hillary to win. They're people with grievances who feel the last 8 years have done nothing for them personally, and want change.

[Haak]

Seems to me that having a grievance lets you justify a lot of things...

[Serovectra]

Originally Posted by Haak

Seems to me that having a grievance lets you justify a lot of things...

Casting your vote fairly for the person you want to elect shouldn't require a justification.

[Haak]

It...shouldn't?...

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Serovectra

When you have to revert to name-calling like some pre-pubescent schoolboy, it doesn't help to get the point across. You can throw whatever dirt you want at Trump, but when you attack those that voted for him it just makes them less likely to see it your way the next time it matters. How you perceive his supporters is very different from reality. There are bad apples on both sides of the spectrum, but the people who voted Trump in are not much different than the people who wanted Hillary to win. They're people with grievances who feel the last 8 years have done nothing for them personally, and want change.

Blame Bill Maher if you have a problem with the way I perceive Trump based on photos.

I'm calling out whoever I want when those people just fail at catching the bigger picture. There was and is a lot more at stakes on the globe depending of who is elected president. We non-Americans learned that the hard way when Bush (fuck him!) was elected twice with his horrible IQ and laziness coming in the package. Change for the sake of change is just plain stupid without deeper thoughts for the bigger picture.

Furthermore, I don't think the American people have understood that the need for evolution and change is in switching labour into something more oriented towards secondary domains, tertiary domains, and renewable energy. Have the people done anything for their country instead of expecting what their country can do for them? Seems the answer is a big NO. The writing has been on the wall for 8 years. So UNTIL the day Americans start putting forward a respect for educated folks, a drive towards new domains, and a necessary sacrifice of old domains (which is normal evolution that includes dropping coal mining and the likes), I hold every right to openly criticise those who voted for Trump.

Why do you think Japan has been able to cope with changes in their economy with low-level jobs gone abroad? They adapted themselves. My position about Canadian labour is the same: you either adapt to stay competitive or go fuck yourself.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Serovectra

Trump does let emotions get the best of him, but Clinton always appears scripted and fake to me. Neither is better than the other.

Politics must be the only career in the world where being prepared and not being prepared are seen as being equal.

[Serovectra]

Originally Posted by Haak

It...shouldn't?...

...That's right. It's no ones business unless you want to tell them. There are thousands of reasons to vote one candidate over the other. Most people aren't even political and just vote for their party.

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Blame Bill Maher if you have a problem with the way I perceive Trump based on photos.

I'm calling out whoever I want when those people just fail at catching the bigger picture. There was and is a lot more at stakes on the globe depending of who is elected president. We non-Americans learned that the hard way when Bush (fuck him!) was elected twice with his horrible IQ and laziness coming in the package. Change for the sake of change is just plain stupid without deeper thoughts for the bigger picture.

Furthermore, I don't think the American people have understood that the need for evolution and change is in switching labour into something more oriented towards secondary domains, tertiary domains, and renewable energy. Have the people done anything for their country instead of expecting what their country can do for them? Seems the answer is a big NO. The writing has been on the wall for 8 years. So UNTIL the day Americans start putting forward a respect for educated folks, a drive towards new domains, and a necessary sacrifice of old domains (which is normal evolution that includes dropping coal mining and the likes), I hold every right to openly criticise those who voted for Trump.

Why do you think Japan has been able to cope with changes in their economy with low-level jobs gone abroad? They adapted themselves. My position about Canadian labour is the same: you either adapt to stay competitive or go fuck yourself.

I don't care how you perceive Trump, but if you read what I wrote in my previous posts, I was referring to the posters of this forum who attack the people who voted for him, and not merely Trump himself.

Trump has yet to do anything damning with his current position as president-elect. Maybe he has appointed people you don't like, and maybe that is a harbinger of things to come, but you're still making assertions not based on any factual evidence. Regardless, there are people who think Trump will make a better president than Hillary, and not in the white-nationalist rhetoric way that this board likes to toss around.

Speaking from the point of view who has both Hillary supporters and Trump supporters in the family, they are both equally sane, and equally intelligent (give or take a few IQ points).

Originally Posted by Endscape

Politics must be the only career in the world where being prepared and not being prepared are seen as being equal.

It all felt like theatrics with her, if you want to consider that a synonym to being prepared.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Serovectra

It's astounding how often liberals bring up Trump backing down on prosecuting Hillary. It's also astounding that they think it's a big deal. If he did it, he would be labeled a fascist by the left, if he didn't, then he kept his "promise" but it's a lose/lose either way.

You don't get it. We don't want Clinton imprisoned, we want Clinton put on trial and then have her name cleared. The whole point is that Trump doesn't have a case. That the voters are wrong about her being guilty. And that can only be changed by Trump carrying out the threat and then have the courts prove Clinton innocent.

We say Trump back down not because he is nice to her, but because he wants people to still think she is guilty. He backed down to stop her being proven right.

[Reckoner]

Having a right to vote doesn't mean you have an opinion worth respecting. It's OK. Trump will do nothing to solve the problems of globalization that have wrecked economic havoc on their poor rural white lives, and we will once again swing the pendulum for another "change" candidate when these people too dumb to understand their problems once again get frustrated. Maybe Trump can distract them with his dog whistles to immigration and nationalism for awhile more, but I just hope he doesn't cause a foreign policy blunder so big that the world goes to shit.

If you don't educate and invest for the future economy, your way of life will continue to be left in the dust. They aren't worth caring about at this point. They damage their own livelihood.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

If you don't educate and invest for the future economy, your way of life will continue to be left in the dust. They aren't worth caring about at this point. They damage their own livelihood.

You put it in better words than I ever did. The path to the future is always through education and putting your money into new technologies. That's exactly what Japan did over the decades despite all of that talk of recession, and I have to give them credit for that as a means for economic survival.

[Key Board]

"Donald Trump's anti-climate science shakedown just started

The Trump transition team sent an unusually detailed questionnaire to the Energy Department, seeking, among other information, lists of people involved in climate change programs at one of the premier science agencies in the world.

The questionnaire, which was first reported by Bloomberg News and obtained independently by Mashable, asks for "a list of Department employees or contractors" who attended the U.N. climate talks in the past five years. "

http://mashable.com/2016/12/09/trump...climate-lists/

[frivolity]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

You put it in better words than I ever did. The path to the future is always through education and putting your money into new technologies. That's exactly what Japan did over the decades despite all of that talk of recession, and I have to give them credit for that as a means for economic survival.

That's actually what makes me very happy with Trump's pick for Secretary of Education. The US already has some of the highest per-student expenditure on education and still performs around 20th-30th in the world when it comes to education up to high school. As Romney pointed out, per-student spending tripled between 1970 to today, and yet test scores have not moved. Continuing to increase spending on education is not the answer.

DeVos' ideas for reform include supporting the charter school system and implementing a voucher system that incentivises schools to give students what they want by shifting the power to the consumer. These are policies that I broadly support, though running them past the teacher unions and administrators is always going to be the hard part.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by KiraYamatoFan

Furthermore, I don't think the American people have understood that the need for evolution and change is in switching labour into something more oriented towards secondary domains, tertiary domains, and renewable energy. Have the people done anything for their country instead of expecting what their country can do for them? Seems the answer is a big NO. The writing has been on the wall for 8 years. So UNTIL the day Americans start putting forward a respect for educated folks, a drive towards new domains, and a necessary sacrifice of old domains (which is normal evolution that includes dropping coal mining and the likes), I hold every right to openly criticise those who voted for Trump.

Why do you think Japan has been able to cope with changes in their economy with low-level jobs gone abroad? They adapted themselves. My position about Canadian labour is the same: you either adapt to stay competitive or go fuck yourself.

And you seem to be missing the point, or don't want to understand it.

People would adapt if their CEO's would give them a chance instead of firing them and employing new work force that already has the knowledge required. World is not milk and honey as you think and very little CEO's would actually invest some money to educated their workforce for this 'new and progressive age'. To him it's much more economical and profitable to just fire off 1000 old workers and hire up 1000 new ones who already posses modern knowledge. You may call that harsh and inhumane, I call it Capitalism.

And the education today is expensive, if you don't have your own company or the state helping you in this then you are pretty much done for. And that's how 90% of workers who's jobs get obsolete ends up.

So it's no wonder some people will try anything to keep their old jobs even if obsolete in your eyes. They are 40 or 50+ and do not have the capacity to learn like we in our 20's and 30's. And they do not want to be on social care either, so electing a men who will take care of them is the only logical choice for them.

And let me tell you this: Japan was able to cope but Japanese themselves do not like it as modern capitalism destroy their sense of 'family company'. Before this every Japanese will get a single job and work it to the retirement, looking at employees as members of his family and company as his house. Modern capitalism ended that when each Japanese started swapping jobs like crazy. Moreover because of profits they started working really hard, up to 12 and sometimes 16 hours per day and as a result Japan may be as modern as you see it but it also has high percentage of people who are in their 50's and never had sex becasue they worked their entire life. Family values got destroyed, their population is gettign really old really fast and modern generations are much more lazier than their parents one.

So no, world is not milk and honey. And it's not made up to be perfect.We can only try to make it more bearable and that's about it.