Code Geass (Generic discussion thread)

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Lie

You misunderstand, I didn't say it would be ruined if it was not the case, just that a lot of the symbolic value would be lost.

Your opinion of the show would still be hurt due to said loss though, according to what I understand, if that were the case.

It would fail as karma because it is avoiding the idea that is karma, in that you reap what you sow. It does not make literate sense to have his karma be anything but his own death when death has been what he has spread. In this situation, karma isn't changed, its entirely removed for something else.

It would tend to go against a literate definition and application of karma, along the lines you've described. Leaving us with either a case of the so-called "Karma Houdini", or at the very least an extremely flexible interpretation of what karma is (to the point of becoming something else, strictly speaking, as you say).

But fiction need not always make absolute literate sense, it can also rely on subversion or misunderstanding (of the concept of karma), even if this may be to its detriment from a critical perspective.

I am also not a fan of obscure deus ex machina being a possible explanation for a loss or change of symbolism that has been mostly consistent through the show.

From a critical perspective, I would agree. I'm not exactly promoting the literary virtues of the idea per se.

The other problem I can see is that these theories bank on an unprovable idea that has been so rarely touched on that its more like groping in the darkness than anything. Whereas the counter to these theories is grounded in the reality of the thematics of the show. Deus ex machina to drive the show is fine, it drives the show, but deus ex machina to overwrite a thematic since the first episode? I don't see how that can be seen as good.

Don't get me wrong, I respect other people's wishes, but that's all they are wishes. The most plausibly concrete evidence points at his death through the themes of the show.

I'm hardly trying to say the other alternative is critically "good", though it is valid as an opinion and, as such, is an option.

I've already acknowledged that the case for Lelouch's death is thematically strong, in itself. I'm not arguing otherwise.

[Lie]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Your opinion of the show would still be hurt due to said loss though, according to what I understand, if that were the case.

It would but it would not ruin anything. One transgression isn't going to make me hate the show and spit on its creator, but it will make me look back at the however many hours I've spent watching it and second guessing myself.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

It would tend to go against a literate definition and application of karma, along the lines you've described. Leaving us with either a case of the so-called "Karma Houdini", or at the very least an extremely flexible definition of said karma (to the point of becoming something else, strictly speaking, as you say).

But fiction need not make absolute literate sense, it can also rely on its subversion, even if this may be to its detriment from a critical perspective.

But fiction is an application of literature. I do agree that it does not have to make complete sense, it usually has to offer some sense. But a 'Karma Houdini', just like a convenient divine intervention, isn't really the best way to diverge from sense. There are always better ways to diverge, ways to build into it visibly. Pulling it out at the end, like an ace up your sleave, is nothing more than cheating the game.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

From a critical perspective, I would agree. I'm not exactly promoting the literary virtues of the idea per se.

I can't argue with you then.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I've already acknowledged that the case for Lelouch's death is thematically strong, in itself. I'm not arguing otherwise.

Then we've been arguing the same thing. I love when that happens.
The only difference, I can see, is that you are more linient on the opinions that cripple the thematics of the show.

[youngde]

As far as I'm concerned, Lelouch's life or death could be an appropriate punishment for his crimes. If anything, simply dying could be seen as a easy way out for him; those that would really suffer are the ones he leaves behind (particularly Kallen, C.C. and Nunnally). Lelouch, while accepting that casualties were inevitable in his crusade, nonetheless regretted what he had to do to bring about peace for his loved ones.

Suzaku pointed out that Lelouch is the type of man who takes all the responsibility onto himself (which is why he kept so many people, particularly Kallen and Nunnally, 'out of the loop.') Suzaku knows this because they are the same. Therefore, it makes sense that both would take on the punishment at the end of the series. Suzaku can never be Suzaku again (except possibly when he's only w/ Nunnally and maybe Kallen). It's perfectly plausible that Lelouch's punishment could contrast this by him dying, or complement it by him living on w/o being Lelouch anymore, separated from those he loves to protect them and so they can move on. Both work thematically and conceptually (although the latter has more marketing potential. ).

youngde, signing off

[Droplet]

Originally Posted by Lie

Everyone's opinion is a wish, the wish for what they want to be the reality to be the reality. However, that is all they are, wishes.
When someone presents an opposition to the 'wish' in the form of evidence grounded in the thematic present within the show, that opinion takes precedence and becomes more factual than a 'wish'. Opinions are not equal, they never have been. You have the fair right to equally be heard, but that does not stop people from proving you wrong.

Hey, wait a moment. I didn't know that opinions are just another word for wishes. So it means that every time a sick person consults a doctor's opinion, he's actually just asking for get-well-soon wishes?

Also, I am of the opinion that life at times is miserable. Is it the same as wishing that my life was sometimes miserable?

You've offered a wordy explanation. But it's rather susceptible and vague, just thought you might like to know.

About your statement about opinions not being equal. Well, I agree. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But it's impossible to prove someone wrong with just an opinion, don't you think? I think you were referring to "arguments". I do think that would be a much more logical word to use. Because for example, if it was all just about opinion:

Person A: Hey, I like cats.
Person B: Well I like dogs.
Person A: You're WRONG!

[Lie]

Originally Posted by Droplet

Also, I am of the opinion that life at times is miserable. Is it the same as wishing that my life was sometimes miserable?

You've offered a wordy explanation. But it's rather susceptible and vague, just thought you might like to know.

About your statement about opinions not being equal. Well, I agree. Everyone's entitled to their own opinion. But it's impossible to prove someone wrong with just an opinion, don't you think? I think you were referring to "arguments". I do think that would be a much more logical word to use. Because for example, if it was all just about opinion:

Consult a dictionary as to all the possible uses of the word wish, you'll find that many of them are about a person's inclination towards an idea. For instance: Wish - The particular preference that you have. This is no different from an opinion.
There's a difference between a baseless opinion and an opinion grounded in what the producer of the show has said. I have no problem with baseless opinions, people can believe in them all they want, but they are not of equal merit as an opinion that takes into consideration everything that has been presented. No opinion is ever completely bullet proof or completely provable, don't misunderstand, but some of them are far more realistic.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by Lie

It would but it would not ruin anything. One transgression isn't going to make me hate the show and spit on its creator, but it will make me look back at the however many hours I've spent watching it and second guessing myself.

I didn't intend to say it would go so far, but I see....though I've had my fair share of second guessing moments while watching Code Geass R2, to a greater or lesser extent.

I do agree that it does not have to make complete sense, it usually has to offer some sense. But a 'Karma Houdini', just like a convenient divine intervention, isn't really the best way to diverge from sense. There are always better ways to diverge, ways to build into it visibly. Pulling it out at the end, like an ace up your sleave, is nothing more than cheating the game.

Generally, that would be the case. Specifically, there's a range of possible divergences, depending on their details and, as such, exactly how much sense each will make also varies...with their respective merits even if they may still have some of the same general limitations, which is why they can be discussed.

The only difference, I can see, is that you are more linient on the opinions that cripple the thematics of the show.

For the most part. In this context, I do think there's a greater margin for subjectivity and for a variety of opinions, by themselves or through a different interpretation (or selection) of the facts.

[Lie]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I didn't intend to say it would go so far, but I see....though I've had my fair share of second guessing moments while watching Code Geass R2, to a greater or lesser extent.

I've had those moments but they were not ones that would make me actual to a full retrospective.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Generally, that would be the case. Specifically, there's a range of possible divergences, depending on their details and, as such, exactly how much sense each will make also varies...with their respective merits even if they may still have some of the same general limitations, which is why they can be discussed.

My problem here lies with the idea that few of the divergences can be based on anything other than a loose interpretation and a series of large assumptions that are further contradicted by the show unless an extra clause (assumption) is added to make the idea work. Its an assumption that is supported by further assumptions. It's flimsy.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

For the most part. In this context, I do think there's a greater margin for subjectivity and for a variety of opinions, by themselves or through a different interpretation (or selection) of the facts.

Certainly in this show there is a greater margin, but I do not think that margin can be extended indefinately. Too much coincidence is too much coincidence.

[hero147]

Originally Posted by Lie

Consult a dictionary as to all the possible uses of the word wish, you'll find that many of them are about a person's inclination towards an idea. For instance: Wish - The particular preference that you have. This is no different from an opinion.
There's a difference between a baseless opinion and an opinion grounded in what the producer of the show has said. I have no problem with baseless opinions, people can believe in them all they want, but they are not of equal merit as an opinion that takes into consideration everything that has been presented. No opinion is ever completely bullet proof or completely provable, don't misunderstand, but some of them are far more realistic.

An opinion is bulletproof to every comment hosted in a discussion, unless it is downright ridiculous ( I mean like very ridiculous, like no chance in hell it will ever happen, 0%). While opinions are bulletproof, it also makes them unwanted and usually dismissed immediately in high-leveled discussions. The Word you are looking for is, most notably inferences, when one must look at the evidence shown, fairly, and reach a sensible conclusion. Inferences are the relationship between the shown facts, and are generally in debate.

[Lie]

Originally Posted by hero147

An opinion is bulletproof to every comment hosted in a discussion, unless it is downright ridiculous ( I mean like very ridiculous, like no chance in hell it will ever happen, 0%). While opinions are bulletproof, it also makes them unwanted and usually dismissed immediately in high-leveled discussions. The Word you are looking for is, most notably inferences, when one must look at the evidence show, fairly, and reach a sensible conclusion. Inferences are the relationship between the shown facts, and are generally in debate.

No opinion is bulletproof, that is an absolute falacy. If it was bulletproof it would not be an opinion it would be a fact. Any opinion can be contested on any number of grounds, the more possible grounds for contest the less stable or bulletproof that opinion becomes. The word I am looking for has never been, nor will be, inference. I can sort my own thoughts perfectly well and do not need to be told what I am looking for. Finally, high level discussion is all about the most contested and heavily supported opinions. Discussion is a matter of opinion. It is not a discussion otherwise, it is a reading of an encyclopedia.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by hero147

An opinion is bulletproof to every comment hosted in a discussion, unless it is downright ridiculous ( I mean like very ridiculous, like no chance in hell it will ever happen, 0%). While opinions are bulletproof, it also makes them unwanted and usually dismissed immediately in high-leveled discussions. The Word you are looking for is, most notably inferences, when one must look at the evidence shown, fairly, and reach a sensible conclusion. Inferences are the relationship between the shown facts, and are generally in debate.

I can say that in my Larousse dictionary (a big french famous dictionary), I don't see any reference that an Opinion is a Wish. So again, stop it, at least you, you know how to read. You don't have to prove anything else

[hero147]

Originally Posted by Lie

No opinion is bulletproof, that is an absolute falacy. If it was bulletproof it would not be an opinion it would be a fact. Any opinion can be contested on any number of grounds, the more possible grounds for contest the less stable or bulletproof that opinion becomes. The word I am looking for has never been, nor will be, inference. I can sort my own thoughts perfectly well and do not need to be told what I am looking for. Finally, high level discussion is all about the most contested and heavily supported opinions. Discussion is a matter of opinion. It is not a discussion otherwise, it is a reading of an encyclopedia.

An opinion is bulletproof.

Person A: Dogs are cute!

Care to take a shot at that? It is an opinion. Yet, it is also not a fact that dogs are cute, and not everyone can agree on it, therefore it's an opinion. So how do opinions differentiate from facts? Facts are a statement that is commonly accepted as true and is based on measurable evidence. Facts are never in dispute unless new evidence is presented. So not even facts are completely bulletproof from arguments.

Opinions never or hardly ever contribute to a discussion, because they carry no proof, no backbone, no solid evidence. The moment evidence is presented, it becomes an inference since it is basically, an interpretation or an "inference" of a particular fact. They are basically the relationship between facts. Now, in argumentative writing, whether or not the writer (you) take a fair evaluation of the facts and evidence, challenges the validity of your argument or generally your thesis.

Originally Posted by Narona

I can say that in my Larousse dictionary (a big french famous dictionary), I don't see any reference that an Opinion is a Wish. So again, stop it, at least you, you know how to read. You don't have to prove anything else

Isn't Larousse a French-English dictionary? My French teacher says it's a great dictionary for class. About the wish and opinion discussion, I highly don't see how they equate to the same thing. They are similar in some aspects, I can see that, but I cannot see how they are similar enough to the extent of being interchangeable.

[Narona]

Originally Posted by hero147

Isn't Larousse a French-English dictionary? My French teacher says it's a great dictionary for class. About the wish and opinion discussion, I highly don't see how they equate to the same thing. They are similar in some aspects, I can see that, .

You mean for translation? Maybe, but me for translation english to french and french to english, I have an Harrap's.

My Larousse dictionary and encyclopaedia give mainly the "definition/examples etc" of words, not a translation ^^

but I cannot see how they are similar enough to the extent of being interchangeable

It's called a synonym then

I checked it my synonym dictionary and "opinion" is not a synonym of "wish" at least in this dictionary.

-

To stop the offtopic. I can't wait to see a full scan of these two pics:


C.C. and lelouch seem not sad at all in the first pic.

[KrimzonStriker]

You know, in terms of what recent interview seem to be pointing out in accord with Okouchi, I feel it is even then still open to interpretation since he's speaking in a thematic term here. Wee did indeed see Lelouch 'die' and to the rest of the world he is dead at the very least, but on the whole I feel him being alive, most likely immortal, afterward still fits in regards to this overarching theme he wants to establish here about sacrifice etc etc. and that in regards to my own analysis on the situation him being immortal would still be sufficient in regards to sacrifice and punishment, as death has often been regarded as an escape as shown by Suzaku and immortality a curse as demonstrated by C.C. In this case, I feel that overall Taniguichi could only be really referring to the point in the epilogue that was most in dispute that that concerning what was on everyone's lips in regards to it, and I feel that as per it style everything about the epilogue, especially in contrast when we already had a good idea to the fate of the other characters as is, was indeed fitting to his style of leaving up to our own interpretation, hence why the the perspective that Lelouch could still be alive still stands, at least on how I view it anyway. I think that seems fair in any case... >_>

[lovecakecookies]

Originally Posted by Narona

You mean for translation? Maybe, but me for translation english to french and french to english, I have an Harrap's.

My Larousse dictionary and encyclopaedia give mainly the "definition/examples etc" of words, not a translation ^^


It's called a synonym then

I checked it my synonym dictionary and "opinion" is not a synonym of "wish" at least in this dictionary.

-

To stop the offtopic. I can't wait to see a full scan of these two pics:


C.C. and lelouch seem not sad at all in the first pic.

WHOa.. where is the CLAMP picture from?! OMG it is beautiful..

[youngde]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

You know, in terms of what recent interview seem to be pointing out in accord with Okouchi, I feel it is even then still open to interpretation since he's speaking in a thematic term here. Wee did indeed see Lelouch 'die' and to the rest of the world he is dead at the very least, but on the whole I feel him being alive, most likely immortal, afterward still fits in regards to this overarching theme he wants to establish here about sacrifice etc etc. and that in regards to my own analysis on the situation him being immortal would still be sufficient in regards to sacrifice and punishment, as death has often been regarded as an escape as shown by Suzaku and immortality a curse as demonstrated by C.C. In this case, I feel that overall Taniguichi could only be really referring to the point in the epilogue that was most in dispute that that concerning what was on everyone's lips in regards to it, and I feel that as per it style everything about the epilogue, especially in contrast when we already had a good idea to the fate of the other characters as is, was indeed fitting to his style of leaving up to our own interpretation, hence why the the perspective that Lelouch could still be alive still stands, at least on how I view it anyway. I think that seems fair in any case... >_>

Well, personally, I don't know why they would make an ending so open to interpretation and then confirm it one way or the other a couple weeks later anyway. (Unless, they didn't mean for it to be up to interpretation and just did a shitty job. )

[Skellington2612]

Originally Posted by Lie

Everyone's opinion is a wish, the wish for what they want to be the reality to be the reality. However, that is all they are, wishes.
When someone presents an opposition to the 'wish' in the form of evidence grounded in the thematic present within the show, that opinion takes precedence and becomes more factual than a 'wish'. Opinions are not equal, they never have been. You have the fair right to equally be heard, but that does not stop people from proving you wrong.

A wish is something you want to happen...
An opinion someone personal INTERPRETATION of something that happened or might happen... not a wish... maybe some people want their opinion to be the truth but it´s still an opinion unless that person have good evidence of it being truth...

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Narona

-

To stop the offtopic. I can't wait to see a full scan of these two pics:


C.C. and lelouch seem not sad at all in the first pic.

Of course they don't....Because this pic is rather a reversal of OST 2 cover....

[Skellington2612]

Originally Posted by dec4rhapsody

Of course they don't....Because this pic is rather a reversal of OST 2 cover....

Is the CC picture from the book Clamp is going to release??

[dec4rhapsody]

Originally Posted by Skellington2612

Is the CC picture from the book Clamp is going to release??

Hmm, perhaps in the ClampXCode Geass artbook?

[Narona]

Originally Posted by Skellington2612

Is the CC picture from the book Clamp is going to release??

I don't know, but apparently, this is the last drawing made by clamp for R2. One was missing till now. It's the 18th.