AnimeSuki Forums

BWTraveller · 2017-12-22, 13:59

OK, another odd one that came to me at the very end of a recent show. The show in question had a girl turn into the "main" villain early on, and at the very end it's revealed that this was actually a deliberate choice on her part with motives quite different from what we were led to believe. She'd been put previously through the same situation the characters were now in and knew all too well the massive despair it created. As a result, she felt that the best thing for the characters was for them to completely give up any imaginary hope and either kill themselves or kill each other, or otherwise put themselves out of their misery as quickly as possible. To this end she closed off her heart and played the villain as hard as she could, often going seriously over the top, whether because of bad acting or because she was desperately pushing herself into this state to do what needed to be done. Unfortunately, this happened in a series that by its nature couldn't be taken seriously and couldn't do any of this sort of thing with any real quality, and one where it'd be impossible to make it into something one could take interest in.

Basically, I'm looking for something that does this better. Something where one or more "villains" is actually playing the villain because they think it's for the best. Maybe they think everyone would have a better chance at living if they surrendered to the top villain, and if they won't killing them quick is still better than leaving them to fight a hopeless battle. Maybe they actually think they're better off dead. Maybe they have some other goal in mind that they think can only be achieved in this way. The point is, however, that the person does not deep down think like a villain and doesn't want to be a villain, but due to some objective they feel is for the best which is best attained in this way, they decide to not just betray but to seriously go full bad guy on the heroes. It could even be that they're trying to get the heroes to kill them because their existence puts everyone in danger. Bonus if there's indication, like maybe private moments where you see the person hurting over the things they're having to do, or momentary flickers and excesses to demonstrate that the person is forcing him/herself into a mindset (s)he doesn't like. I'm just curious to see what can be done with this when done in a better show by better writers.

SeijiSensei · 2017-12-22, 14:12

Kill la Kill

Haak · 2017-12-22, 16:12

Shingeki no Bahamut Season 2 is a pretty blatant example though a lot of people (myself included) felt that it was rather poorly done.

Is this the trope that you're looking for?

Mad Pierrot · 2017-12-23, 20:56

Gintama has a story arc about something like that but it's quite a big spoiler.

In the Boruto anime's trip arc, we see how the character Kagura is forced to start a rebellion with the Seven Swordmen of the Mist forcing to fight against the main characters.

Also, it's not an anime but I remember in the Teen Titans cartoons Robin was forced to work for Slade since the guy infected Robin's buddies.

BWTraveller · 2017-12-24, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

Shingeki no Bahamut Season 2 is a pretty blatant example though a lot of people (myself included) felt that it was rather poorly done.

Is this the trope that you're looking for?

Somewhat, but more on the side of Necessarily Evil. They aren't just playing the bad guy because they're being threatened or something. They're doing it because they really believe that in some sense it's the best solution, the solution that will have the least or briefest suffering or something similar. Maybe they think that a higher enemy is unbeatable and the only hope is to surrender and hope to be allowed a degree of happiness and life in exchange for obedience. Maybe they think the situation everyone is in is hopeless and the best way to minimize suffering is to pretend to be a villain and force the terror of the situation down everyone's throats. Whatever the case, they know that their action is betraying and/or hurting people (s)he likes and doesn't want to hurt, but (s)he feels like this is the best choice out of a list of horrible options.

Tenzen12 · 2017-12-26, 07:52

Senkou no Night Raid

Spoiler for major spoiler:

Full metal panic

Spoiler for again bug spoiler:

AntonKutovoi · 2017-12-30, 02:36

In Akatsuki no Yona

Spoiler for At the beginning of the series:

Magic Knight Rayearth:

Spoiler for Major spoilers for the first season:

Sackett · 2017-12-30, 11:53

Well... there is Milliardo Peacecraft in Gundam Wing who decides the best way to bring peace is cause a massive atrocity that makes people hate war...

Also, Oriko in the various Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica spinoffs and fanfiction is often this time of character. Since she is a pre-cog this is especially effective since she can see the future, and thus acts as the villain to ensure the best future.

AntonKutovoi · 2017-12-31, 04:57

Oh, and I forgot one major example:
Lelouch from Code Geass. Though you've probably seen it already.

2017-12-22, 13:59	Link #1
BWTraveller Born to ship Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Texas	Unhappy but deliberate villain OK, another odd one that came to me at the very end of a recent show. The show in question had a girl turn into the "main" villain early on, and at the very end it's revealed that this was actually a deliberate choice on her part with motives quite different from what we were led to believe. She'd been put previously through the same situation the characters were now in and knew all too well the massive despair it created. As a result, she felt that the best thing for the characters was for them to completely give up any imaginary hope and either kill themselves or kill each other, or otherwise put themselves out of their misery as quickly as possible. To this end she closed off her heart and played the villain as hard as she could, often going seriously over the top, whether because of bad acting or because she was desperately pushing herself into this state to do what needed to be done. Unfortunately, this happened in a series that by its nature couldn't be taken seriously and couldn't do any of this sort of thing with any real quality, and one where it'd be impossible to make it into something one could take interest in. Basically, I'm looking for something that does this better. Something where one or more "villains" is actually playing the villain because they think it's for the best. Maybe they think everyone would have a better chance at living if they surrendered to the top villain, and if they won't killing them quick is still better than leaving them to fight a hopeless battle. Maybe they actually think they're better off dead. Maybe they have some other goal in mind that they think can only be achieved in this way. The point is, however, that the person does not deep down think like a villain and doesn't want to be a villain, but due to some objective they feel is for the best which is best attained in this way, they decide to not just betray but to seriously go full bad guy on the heroes. It could even be that they're trying to get the heroes to kill them because their existence puts everyone in danger. Bonus if there's indication, like maybe private moments where you see the person hurting over the things they're having to do, or momentary flickers and excesses to demonstrate that the person is forcing him/herself into a mindset (s)he doesn't like. I'm just curious to see what can be done with this when done in a better show by better writers.

2017-12-22, 14:12	Link #2
SeijiSensei AS Oji-kun Join Date: Nov 2006 Age: 74	Kill la Kill __________________ Taking Anime Seriously - Politics by the Numbers - Sports by the Numbers - MAL List - Avatars - Images

2017-12-22, 16:12	Link #3
Haak Me, An Intellectual Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: UK Age: 33	Shingeki no Bahamut Season 2 is a pretty blatant example though a lot of people (myself included) felt that it was rather poorly done. Is this the trope that you're looking for? __________________ MAL \| AnimeSuki Choice Awards 2020 Winners

2017-12-26, 07:52	Link #6
Tenzen12 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012	Senkou no Night Raid Spoiler for major spoiler: main villain knowing future try create and drop nuklear bomb before 2WW starts and thus stop it from happening in first place Full metal panic Spoiler for again bug spoiler: It is revealed that all crap that happened is result of messing with time. Main villain trying stop time machine from being even made. Even MC own father figure end fighting for bad guys knowing MC would have better life. __________________ "I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% of how I react to it" (Charles R. Swindoll)

2017-12-30, 02:36	Link #7
AntonKutovoi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Vladimir, Russia Age: 30	In Akatsuki no Yona Spoiler for At the beginning of the series: Su-Won kills Yona's father and takes the throne for himsels, pretty much launching the series. However not only he isn't a bad person per se, he ends up being a better ruler than Yona's father Magic Knight Rayearth: Spoiler for Major spoilers for the first season: Zagato became a villian to save the woman he loves.

2017-12-23, 20:56	Link #4
Mad Pierrot Corrupted fool Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: I'm everywhere Age: 33	Gintama has a story arc about something like that but it's quite a big spoiler. In the Boruto anime's trip arc, we see how the character Kagura is forced to start a rebellion with the Seven Swordmen of the Mist forcing to fight against the main characters. Also, it's not an anime but I remember in the Teen Titans cartoons Robin was forced to work for Slade since the guy infected Robin's buddies.

2017-12-30, 11:53	Link #8
Sackett Cross Game - I need more Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma Age: 44	Well... there is Milliardo Peacecraft in *Gundam Wing* who decides the best way to bring peace is cause a massive atrocity that makes people hate war... Also, Oriko in the various *Mahou Shoujo Madoka Magica* spinoffs and fanfiction is often this time of character. Since she is a pre-cog this is especially effective since she can see the future, and thus acts as the villain to ensure the best future. __________________ Cross Game - A Story of Love, Life, Death - and Baseball. What more could you want?

2017-12-31, 04:57	Link #9
AntonKutovoi Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Vladimir, Russia Age: 30	Oh, and I forgot one major example: Lelouch from Code Geass. Though you've probably seen it already.