Character discussion and limited poll

[Moczo]

How to put this...

I went into HF not really caring about Sakura one way or the other. I came out of it still ambivalent towards her, but now because I had feelings of opposite extremes that canceled each other out. I felt... genuinely disgusted at how she'd been treated, I truly pitied her, and I had a new respect for her ability to even... geez, stand up and walk around like a normal person after all the crap she's been through. But this was now married to a brutal, soul-crushing depression that emerged whenever I looked at her, and the knowledge that she had been (albeit against her own will or even without her knowledge) responsible for the deaths or corruptions of several characters that I liked just as much or more than her.

I appreciated Heaven's Feel, and I'd recommend anyone read it because it's a damn powerful story. But I don't know if I can say I enjoyed it, really.

Well, okay, I enjoyed the action scenes because they were great.

And not that any of this discussion is relevant because I voted for Illya anyway. She's just so fun, how could I not? I love her for the same reason I loved Arcueid in Tsukihime; she makes minimal sense, does whatever she feels like doing, and she combines cute and horrifying in one seamless little package while still being so cheerful about it. I wish she were my crazy homunculus little-big adoptive sister.

[Cherry_Lover]

Hang on, so you're complaining about Sakura being responsible for the deaths of other characters, even though she had no knowledge of it, and yet you're giving Ilya (who goes out to kill Shirou (amongst others), and who actually knows what Sakura is doing in HF (from the very beginning, before Shirou even knows that she's a magus) and chooses not to stop it because she knows it'll hurt Shirou) a free pass?

Do I sense a certain amount of hyprocrisy here?

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Hang on, so you're complaining about Sakura being responsible for the deaths of other characters, even though she had no knowledge of it, and yet you're giving Ilya (who goes out to kill Shirou (amongst others), and who actually knows what Sakura is doing in HF (from the very beginning, before Shirou even knows that she's a magus) and chooses not to stop it because she knows it'll hurt Shirou) a free pass?

Do I sense a certain amount of hyprocrisy here?

Are you questioning Loli-chan? *twitch*

[Cherry_Lover]

I have no problem with Ilya, personally. I just have a problem with the idea of someone blaming Sakura for her entirely involutary actions whilst ignoring the fact that Ilya was aware of what was happening from the beginning and could easily have stopped it if she'd chosen to (but it meant killing Shirou, so she didn't want to do it unless you get too few Ilya points). Not to mention all the brutal deaths Ilya is responsible for (entirely intentionally) in Fate. And she doesn't even have the excuse of being corrupted by Angra Mainyu and quite clearly not sane when she does it, either.

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Not to mention all the brutal deaths Ilya is responsible for (entirely intentionally) in Fate. And she doesn't even have the excuse of being corrupted by Angra Mainyu and quite clearly not sane when she does it, either.

Killing wolves and Shinji is okay in my book. Besides, she lived in a perfectly happy family for eight years, where nothing was wrong. She learns he father has to fight a battle, and her mother will die. Yet, at the end of that battle, she learns that not only did her father not come back, he was raising another boy as his son. She hates Shiro for no other reason than taking Kiritsugu from her, only to later learn (well, for both of them) that each time he left Japan, he was almost always headed to Germany to get her, yet couldn't quite get back into the castle.

Sure Ilya killed people (which I don't really remember), but the rules of the Heaven's Feel state that no bystander can witness and live, which justifies it, as she would not murder senselessly; Sakura, however, did.

When I think of Sakura, I think of hatred for Tokiomi; Ilya, I think of despair of losing her family and being convinced that her father never really loved her.
One was deliberate, the other a huge misunderstanding/ploy.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Do I sense a certain amount of hyprocrisy here?

You realize you're talking about characters people like, right? A certain amount of hyprocrisy is expected. When you like a character, you tend to be more forgiving of their flaws. Besides, in the end it all comes down to personal opinion anyway, right? So is there really a need to call anyone a hypocrite? They have a favorite character that they like, so it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong since in the end it's all personal opinion.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

You realize you're talking about characters people like, right? A certain amount of hyprocrisy is expected. When you like a character, you tend to be more forgiving of their flaws. Besides, in the end it all comes down to personal opinion anyway, right? So is there really a need to call anyone a hypocrite? They have a favorite character that they like, so it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong since in the end it's all personal opinion.

Well he's making a personal opinion of that person's personal opinion, so it should be alright, right? :3

Sure Ilya killed people (which I don't really remember), but the rules of the Heaven's Feel state that no bystander can witness and live, which justifies it, as she would not murder senselessly; Sakura, however, did.

She didn't murder senselessly. AM needed power to manifest itself, so it took it from the citizens of the town while it possessed her. So she isn't a senseless murderer.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Well he's making a personal opinion of that person's personal opinion, so it should be alright, right? :3

Just seems weird to me to call someone a hypocrite when really it's all a matter of personal opinion, you know? When it's personal opinion, no one is really right or wrong, so calling someone a hypocrite for it never solves anything.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Besides, she lived in a perfectly happy family for eight years, where nothing was wrong. She learns he father has to fight a battle, and her mother will die. Yet, at the end of that battle, she learns that not only did her father not come back, he was raising another boy as his son. She hates Shiro for no other reason than taking Kiritsugu from her, only to later learn (well, for both of them) that each time he left Japan, he was almost always headed to Germany to get her, yet couldn't quite get back into the castle.

Oh, poor Ilya. I guess all those years of worm rape that Sakura went through must have been sheer heaven compared to Ilya losing her parents (just like Rin and Sakura did...).

You know, I don't like the idea of judging characters by their fans, which is very fortunate for my opinion of Ilya. I don't hate her in any way, but I can't for the life of me see how you can forgive everything she did and still hate Sakura.

Sure Ilya killed people (which I don't really remember), but the rules of the Heaven's Feel state that no bystander can witness and live, which justifies it, as she would not murder senselessly; Sakura, however, did.

Oh, so it's OK to intentionally murder people because "the rules say so" (even when the people you're murdering have no wish to follow said rules, and indeed are actively trying to avoid being involved in the war, like in the first bad end), but if your subconscious is used to murder people outside of those rules then you're irredeemable?

Spoiler for HF:

Oh, and also the person who knew your subconscious was doing this from day one and yet made no effort to stop it bears less responsibility than you do, even though you had no idea that it was happening and said person could have stopped it easily if they had been willing to sacrifice their adoptive brother to do so?

When I think of Sakura, I think of hatred for Tokiomi; Ilya, I think of despair of losing her family and being convinced that her father never really loved her.

What you said for Ilya applies equally well to Sakura.

One was deliberate, the other a huge misunderstanding/ploy.

Oh, so it's alright for Ilya to wrongly hate her father for abandoning her, but not okay for Sakura to rightly hate her father for abandoning her? And, do you not think Zouken encouraged such feelings in Sakura just as much as the Einsbern family did in Ilya?

Spoiler for HF:

Plus, the comparison isn't between Sakura's feelings for Tokiomi and Ilya's feelings for Kiritsugu. Those don't matter. What matters is Sakura's feelings for (and actions towards) Rin as compared to Ilya's feelings for and actions towardes Shirou. In both cases, they feel deep resentment towards their siblings for stealing their lives away from them.

However, whereas Ilya (until she realises that Shirou is a nice guy who cares for her) fights with the intention of capturing and torturing Shirou (even when he's not a master any more), Sakura (when she gets the chance) is friendly towards Rin and is overjoyed when Rin shows any signs of affection (even though she spends most of the time threatening to kill Sakura and generally being a total bitch). It takes a huge amount of stupidity from Rin and the influence of the avatar of all evil to make Sakura genuinely hate Rin (even as Dark Sakura she can't bring herself to kill Rin when she's got her defeated and at her mercy).

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

Just seems weird to me to call someone a hypocrite when really it's all a matter of personal opinion, you know? When it's personal opinion, no one is really right or wrong, so calling someone a hypocrite for it never solves anything.

But I'm not claiming that he should like Sakura more than Ilya. I'm simply pointing out that his arguments are inconsistent. If he hates Sakura for what she did, he should also hate Ilya. If he doesn't, then he's a hypocrite, by definition.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

But I'm not claiming that he should like Sakura more than Ilya. I'm simply pointing out that his arguments are inconsistent. If he hates Sakura for what she did, he should also hate Ilya. If he doesn't, then he's a hypocrite, by definition.

But, see, you're applying that same definition to something like which character somebody likes. It's extremely easy to be a hypocrite in that sense, because when you like a certain character, you're more forgiving to them compared to other characters that do the same thing (or worse). So he may be a hypocrite, but it's all a matter of personal opinion; the actual definition has nothing to do with it because even if he is being a hypocrite, he still prefers one character over the other.

I don't know, maybe I'm suggesting something silly. It just seems strange to me to call someone a hypocrite based on their personal opinion of something.

[Cherry_Lover]

Well, if he comes out and admits that he is applying different standards to Ilya and Sakura, then fine. Like you say, that's his choice. But he's claiming that Sakura is worse, and giving some absurd justification of that, so I'm tearing his 'justifications' apart.

[RadiantBeam]

But again, in the end, isn't it all just a matter of personal opinion? So really, "tearing his justifications apart" solves nothing in the end because he still likes the character he likes, regardless of what you or anyone else says on the matter.

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover

Oh, poor Ilya. I guess all those years of worm rape that Sakura went through must have been sheer heaven compared to Ilya losing her parents (just like Rin and Sakura did...).

Tosaka Aoi is still alive... she's just no longer sane.

Both Emiya Kiritsugu and Irisviel von Einzbern are dead, and one had to kill the other.

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by RadiantBeam

But, see, you're applying that same definition to something like which character somebody likes. It's extremely easy to be a hypocrite in that sense, because when you like a certain character, you're more forgiving to them compared to other characters that do the same thing (or worse). So he may be a hypocrite, but it's all a matter of personal opinion; the actual definition has nothing to do with it because even if he is being a hypocrite, he still prefers one character over the other.

I don't know, maybe I'm suggesting something silly. It just seems strange to me to call someone a hypocrite based on their personal opinion of something.

You should read back what you wrote to yourself and think on it.
That is a rather odd way of looking at this conversation. You say that having a personal opinion cannot be looked at as right or wrong, but that's what both guys are doing.

This doesn't solve anything anyway, because its apparent that there will be no agreement on both sides.

Tosaka Aoi is still alive... she's just no longer sane.

Actually, she is dead.

[RadiantBeam]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

You should read back what you wrote to yourself and think on it.
That is a rather odd way of looking at this conversation. You say that having a personal opinion cannot be looked at as right or wrong, but that's what both guys are doing.

This doesn't solve anything anyway, because its apparent that there will be no agreement on both sides.

Well, it's just my take on things, honestly. But I suppose I've derailed the thread enough about my thoughts on personal opinion and such. Ah, well, don't mind me too much.

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Actually, she is dead.

Heh, I dinnae remember that.

[Cherry_Lover]

It's not mentioned in the game. However, Rin never talks about her at all, and someone found a Japanese wiki entry that says that she died of an illness prior to the game. Most likely, when FSN was written, Nasu just assumed "well, Rin's mother is dead", and then only later did he invent her backstory (for Fate/Zero). So, he had to hand-wave her out of existence in case anyone asked why Rin had dumped her in a care home and forgotten about her....

Not that it matters much, at least in Sakura's case, because even if Aoi were alive Sakura wouldn't be allowed to see her, and if she did she couldn't really do much with her. Likely it'd just make Sakura depressed to see her mother like that. Plus, her mother ended up in a wheelchair like that because of Kariya, who was attempting to save her, so knowing Sakura she'd find a way to blame it on herself....

[Altima of the Gates]

Originally Posted by Flinch

Heh, I dinnae remember that.

Yep, its true. Besides, why would they pass up the chance for such drama when Sakura was saved? If she was just insane, having Sakura come back to her after all those years would probably be a step in the right direction of recovery...though I'm sure her hair and eye color would give Aoi a bit of a start.

Darn, that would have been really heartwarming.

[Flinch]

Sakura at least had someone to fight for her... unless you count Hercules, who would've done anything for the little girl who reminded him of family.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Yep, its true. Besides, why would they pass up the chance for such drama when Sakura was saved? If she was just insane, having Sakura come back to her after all those years would probably be a step in the right direction of recovery...though I'm sure her hair and eye color would give Aoi a bit of a start.

Darn, that would have been really heartwarming.

Well, me asking why Sakura never visited her was what led to someone finding the quote that said she was dead, IIRC.

I think it's implied that Aoi isn't going to recover, though, even prior to her death. She would still recognise Sakura, however (well, unless she was surprised at how much she'd changed...), although she'd most likely wonder why the hell she hadn't visited for over ten years....

Originally Posted by Flinch

Sakura at least had someone to fight for her... unless you count Hercules, who would've done anything for the little girl who reminded him of family.

You mean Rider? Shame that she couldn't fight for Sakura, thanks to Zouken and the fact that if Sakura fought he would use her as a puppet....

And, really, if Rider counts, so does Berserker.