[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Disz]

I didn't see hints saying Shkannon was true.I saw EP6 as the one to destroy that once and for all.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Disz

I didn't see hints saying Shkannon was true.I saw EP6 as the one to destroy that once and for all.

Please share your thoughts... I feel the same way for a few reasons, but I wonder what your thinking.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Judoh

The love trial seems to be the only thing remotely resembling a hint to me and it just seems to be the usual furniture rambling.

There is also pretty much all conversation between Shannon and Kenon from the beginning in that Episode. Also, it is more then clear Shannon is Beatrice by that flashback (it can't be Kanon or Jessica in there). Add that to Furfur and Zepar saying Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice are a single soul and voilà! Also the fact Kanon can't scape from the Cousins Room and there not being more then 5 people in the Next Room Over.

Originally Posted by Kit

There are a lot of hints concerning Shkanon but the end solution to the puzzle makes no sense if ShKanon was true, unless you're suggesting that it was Shannon that saved Battler in the end.

This is exactly what I am suggesting. Shannon becomes Kanon. Kanon saves Battler. Kanon becomes Beatrice. Erika faces supernatural being popping from nowhere in the closet. Problem solved.

PP:

Originally Posted by Disz

I didn't see hints saying Shkannon was true.I saw EP6 as the one to destroy that once and for all.

Oh, please, tell us why. Believe me, I hate Shkannon theory. Really. I just can't think any other way for Ep6 have any sense.

Erika do not exist seems to have even less sense, though, considering not only pretty much everyone interact with her, the Ep5-6 practically revolving around her abut she also killed people. That last part being said in red.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Also the fact Kanon can't scape from the Cousins Room and there not being more then 5 people in the Next Room Over.

Says you. He can escape if his real name is Kinzo and he doesn't have to at all if he left before it was sealed in the first place, since it wasn't done immediately and there are some issues with the timing.

Also magic.

[Heatth]

Except there is no hint at all his name is Kinzo. Isn't Knox a wonderful thing? And, yes, Erika seems to have placed the seals in no time at all, if I remember the red text correctly(I actually beliece she just placed then beforehand, the game is vague about what was happening in the meanwhile).

More important, how he escaped from the last Closed Room them? Suicide? Becoming Puropuropuko-man?

I am obviously ignoring any magic theory. Also, to magic happen he must be also to do that himself, anyway.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Except there is no hint at all his name is Kinzo. Isn't Knox a wonderful thing?

It explains the "Kinzo" in Episode 4 perfectly so there are hints sorry. There are no hints his name is what he says it is either so your point is entirely moot.

And if you can break this theory go ahead. So far nothing has denied it.

[winter 923]

What is Magic? Magic is anything that can be done by Humans (and Furniture) and as long as these who see it believe it.
What is the deal with the Shrine? To create the Illusion of Beatrice, The Witch's epitaph is written and exposed. 1 year later the Shrine disapears and the whispering and Ghost start to spook around
What is the layout of Rokkenjima/The Mansion? after a little research. 30 minutes are worrisome to go from the gHouse to the Manson, get Food and return. The same with the Chapel, everything is quite near (not counting the hidden Mansion)
Who is Beatrice? Beatrice is a title. Shannon and anyone who claims it
Who has an alabi? no one. Except those stated in red. Battler. Erika in EP5
Whodunnit? someone who knows that Kinzo is dead and about the 2nd Battler. ruling out Rudolf, the Children, Gohda, Eva, Hideyoshi as murderer not as accomplice. ofc things can backfire
Howdunnit? Kyrie for the Mastermind, Shannon, Genji, Kanon, Rosa, Maria for keys, knowlage and manpower
Whydunnt? Kyrie to get her baby back, Shannon because of love, Genji bc lack of love. He only serves, Rosa bc of friendship and $, Maria bc Beato says so

the who, how and why are not importent. the 10th twilight is. or rather Oct 5 24:00 when the BOMB goes off. It is not even sure that they realy get killed (before the 10th twilight)

/Edit:

Originally Posted by Judoh

Battler states pretty clearly in episode 2 that he had a crush on Shannon. when he says the line "Good bye my fleeting love of 6 years ago" in his narration, but they never got serious. Being engaged to her is probably taking it a bit too far. He was 12, man c'mon!

English is not my native language but i interpreted this in a more joking way, you know since he also does not remember really much aber Shannon from 6 years ago so it was more a "oooh pretty girl" and not as serious as Shannon (asking Rudolf every about Battler)

[Kit]

A little bit off topic, but can someone explain why Battler is still listed as DEAD in the game credits if Kanon saves Battler? It's listed in red that 3 bodies entered this room, and only Battler left. That and I don't recall Zepar and Furfur ever saying Beatrice Shannon and Kanon are a single soul - they merely implied that there is a slight problem with the number of lovers in the trial.

[Disz]

I know where you are coming from,considering Kannon isn't there.This is almost 100% fact.But it is only 99% now because no red has been said to show that he isn't.

That scene showing Kannon randomly bleeding from the forehead dying was fantasy,but the truth behind it is that he was never there to begin with.

There also lies the red that states

No one can claim Kannons name other than the person himself.

I'm sure this has been repeated many times,so I'm not really sure how you guys are interpreting this.

First of all,saying that Shannon can change cloths and become another person in nearly a few seconds is extremely vague and ridiculous.

There are times Kannon is doing one thing,while Shannon is doing another.You might be able to say she did one,then did the other,but at the same time is extremely bad reasoning.

Also,I think what made you believe in Shkannon was when Rosa and Maria died because Shannon and Kannon?That also has some truth in it.

You would normally think

''Hey..if Kannon isn't actually a person..yet he killed Rosa,and Shannon killed Maria,being in the same closed room-!They must be the same person!''

Then I get where you're coming from.But that again brings us back to


No one can claim Kannons name other than the person himself.

EP6 makes you believe and believe,then burn it when Beatrice says it in the final battle.

If you want me to explain EP6 Logic Error,I'm not there yet.Starting today I'm reading the story in this perspective.

Beatrice:Shannon
Gaap:Rosa
Virgillia:Kumasuwa
Ronove:Genji
Stakes:Antiques
Siestas:Shotguns
FurFur:Unknown/Jessica
Zepar:Unknown/George
Goats:Fantasy
Ericka:Pretty much us,the readers/detectives.
Dlanor:The rules,pretty much.

Witch Side:
Kruass
Rosa
Shannon
Nastuhi
Nanjo
Kannon/???
Genji
Kumasuwa
Hideyoshi

And it's going perfect.This is all pretty much being solved like cake,and it will most likely solve all EP further.But if you're going to read like this,you must remember that

White Text is evidence if it is in Battlers perspective
And do not use love.

If you're going to say ''well..that person couldn't have done it''
or ''I don't think they would do that'' then you're not going to find the answer.The truth is going to be harsh and we're going to have to accept it.

Also,for some reason I've decided to make These 4 away from any suspicion at all until I find pure clean evidence that they must be blamed.

Battler
Jessica
George
Maria

Maria is only being tricked to believe in witches.She is playing no part at all.''Beatrice'' or Shannon merely tricks here and teaches her ''magic'' so that when this day comes,her eerie speeches and descriptions of Arcanes ''lowers anti-magic-toxin''.

And to clear it up,''lowering anti-magic-toxin'' is raising belief in the witch so that no suspicion will be toward the Witch Siders and they can all ''stop thinking''.

[k//eternal]

Originally Posted by Judoh

It explains the "Kinzo" in Episode 4 perfectly so there are hints sorry. There are no hints his name is what he says it is either so your point is entirely moot.

And if you can break this theory go ahead. So far nothing has denied it.

Perfectly? The question of how everyone saw Kinzo, sure, but I don't think anybody would suddenly start listening to him just because that turned out to be his name. It seems a lot more rational and simple to say that Kinzo actually left a will and it was revealed in EP4, causing people to recognize his (former) existence.

I like the whole "running away through the other exit" theory because it's that kind of timing trick that's been seen a few times previously (notably EP3). The question is still how 3 bodies passed through the door to the guest room, combined with a proper explanation of the "total = 17" condition. Just gonna brainstorm a bit.

Leaving aside Shkanon, we probably have to use some variant of Ghosterika. The first is what I call "pure Ghosterika", which is that there is nobody by that name on the island. In that case, two Battlers or Kanons had to pass through the door. There's arguably some foreshadowing about two Battlers from EP4, although notably adding a second Battler would bump up the person count unless Battler2 was the true identity of someone else, again. Since Kanon was noted as entering the room and Battler as exiting it, the possibility that Kanon is the second Battler is voided.

Alternatively, you have Furudo Erika somehow being the true name of someone else on the island. I dunno, most people would say that if it's not grounded in EP1-4 it's a weak theory, and that name never came up, so there should be no evidence of it being the true name of someone else. The (kind of random, but it's true that we don't know his name for sure) possibility that Kanon is Erika is also void, because he doesn't have two bodies and therefore can't bump the count at the door to 3.

If anyone else has thoughts, do share them, it just seems like the strongest possibility for Ghosterika lies in the old "second Battler" theory.

Originally Posted by Disz

No one can claim Kannons name other than the person himself.

I'm sure this has been repeated many times,so I'm not really sure how you guys are interpreting this.

First of all,saying that Shannon can change cloths and become another person in nearly a few seconds is extremely vague and ridiculous.

I want to give all other theories a fair shake, so don't take this the wrong way, but most Shkanon interpretations are that there never was any Kanon other than Shannon her(?)self. And when they're alone together, there's no way from a Shkanon perspective that you can take those scenes at face value, so that argument is void.

[winter 923]

Originally Posted by Disz

No one can claim Kannons name other than the person himself.

Kanon is a person, therefore no one can claim his name other than Kanon.
A person or in latin persona means a Mask. something that identifies one as a individual Human beeing. As an alter ego, there is no need for 2 bodys to exist for 2 personas

[Kit]

But even if we consider the fact that there never was any Kanon, we can't conclude that Shanon is the "Kanon" that saves Battler since no one but a real Kanon can use that name. And if we were to believe that Kanon was never sealed in that room to begin with, the only other solution to the puzzle (EXCLUDING SHKANON) is that the "The seals were intact at the time of the logic error" is a play on words meaning that as long as the logic error exists, the seals would remain intact. For Kanon helping Battler escape is the solution to the logic error, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that when he breaks out of his "Sealed room," the logic error was solved as a result. The seals don't have to be in place when he breaks out, and they were never checked after the time of the logic error.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Judoh

It explains the "Kinzo" in Episode 4 perfectly so there are hints sorry. There are no hints his name is what he says it is either so your point is entirely moot.

That is not a hint 'Kanon=Kinzo'. This barely is a hint of 'there is other Kinzo'. And what do you mean by hints of his name. The name 'Yoshiya' is completely irrelevant. And you don't not need any 'hint' to know he is 'Kanon'.

Originally Posted by Judoh

And if you can break this theory go ahead. So far nothing has denied it.

Nice theory. But I don't even need to counter it, Jan-Poo already did it. I can only add that Erika stated she completely sealed the rooms without going out of the guest house, meaning that, yes, she sealed it retroactively.

Also, I believe completely ignoring the fantasy scenes is not the best thing to do. Ryuukishi already said you need to consider then as well to discover the truth. And the whole point of the fantasy scenes of Ep6 seems to be telling us about Shkannontrice.

Originally Posted by Disz

No one can claim Kannons name other than the person himself.

I'm sure this has been repeated many times,so I'm not really sure how you guys are interpreting this.

Only Kanon can use that name. Shannon is Kanon. That mean only Shannon can use Kanon's name. The red only mean we can't have, for example, George pretending to be Kanon. The only one who can be Kanon is the person who already is Kanon, Shannon.

Originally Posted by Disz

First of all,saying that Shannon can change cloths and become another person in nearly a few seconds is extremely vague and ridiculous.

Ridiculous can be. Not impossible, tough. Also, to become 'Kanon', she might only need a wig and removing her dress (maybe Kanon's cloths are aways under it). To become 'Beatrice' there is only need of a wig. Suit!Beatrice proves there is no need of the fancy dress.

Originally Posted by Disz

There are times Kannon is doing one thing,while Shannon is doing another.You might be able to say she did one,then did the other,but at the same time is extremely bad reasoning.

When, for example? From Ep1-3 one of then (or both) 'die' in the beginning. Before it, as far I can remember, only one of then is doing something that need to deal with people. Ep4, of course, is shown from outside Battler's view. Also, even there they seem to be aways together. Ep6 they stay in the Cousin Room most of time however, note that, seem tough Kanon agreed to play cards with the Cousins, Shannon is nowhere to be seem, even tough there should be no reason for her not be there (George was also there). I don't quite remember Ep5, sorry.

Originally Posted by Disz

Also,I think what made you believe in Shkannon was when Rosa and Maria died because Shannon and Kannon?That also has some truth in it.

No, really. Specially because No one need to be there to kill the, both, since they were not killed.

PP:

Originally Posted by Kit

But even if we consider the fact that there never was any Kanon, we can't conclude that Shanon is the "Kanon" that saves Battler since no one but a real Kanon can use that name. And if we were to believe that Kanon was never sealed in that room to begin with, the only other solution to the puzzle (EXCLUDING SHKANON) is that the "The seals were intact at the time of the logic error" is a play on words meaning that as long as the logic error exists, the seals would remain intact. For Kanon helping Battler escape is the solution to the logic error, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that when he breaks out of his "Sealed room," the logic error was solved as a result. The seals don't have to be in place when he breaks out, and they were never checked after the time of the logic error.

The best reasoning I've read so far. Yeah, I guess it is possible. If you are whiling to say Kanon killed himself and Erika does not exist.

There need to be an explanation for all red truths concerning Erika then. Also a way to see the whole two episodes considering she does not exist. Many of the people reaction depend of her existence.

And, of course, this still completely ignore the fantasy scenes. How explain Kanon's, Shannon's and Beatrice's souls being just one if they are not the same person?

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Nice theory. But I don't even need to counter it, Jan-Poo already did it. I can only add that Erika stated she completely sealed the rooms without going out of the guest house, meaning that, yes, she sealed it retroactively.

Ssol confirmed it's plausible. Battler said to progress the game after he confirmed people's locations so there is a period of time for someone to leave the room.

And do you really think people would use Kanon = Kinzo as a theory this long if it didn't have potential? come on give us some credit.

As for the meta scenes I'm not ignoring them. I just don't see why Shkanon has to be true because of them when several other theories we've proposed are implied in the same scenes. Episode 6 doesn't necessitate shkanon has to be true it doesn't necessitate any theory by itself.

[Heatth]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Ssol confirmed it's plausible. Battler said to progress the game after he confirmed Erika's locations so there is a period of time for someone to leave the room.

No, I just checked it. When this red text was said "the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.", Erika had not leaved the corridor. She sealed the rooms in no time at all. Meaning she must have been sealed retroactively.

Originally Posted by Judoh

And do you really think people would use Kanon = Kinzo as a theory this long if it didn't have potential? come on give us some credit.

There were people using that theory? I never heard about that before just now. But then, I avoid spoilers, so I haven't looked any 'risky' place until recently. I still can't see any hint about Kanon=Kinzo except we didn't know Kanons name.

Originally Posted by Judoh

As for the fantasy scenes I'm not ignoring them. I just don't see why Shkanon has to be true because of them when several other theories we've proposed are implied in the same scenes. Episode 6 doesn't necessitate shkanon has to be true it doesn't necessitate any theory by itself.

Ah, which theory can explain the fantasy scenes then? I fail to see anyone pointing me that.

Also, there is another thing. It is heavily implied the seal of the Next Room Over was broken. If not, why would Dlanor refuse to counter that when Gaap proposed? It would be simpler then denying the blue truth. Or else, why would Dlanor allow Erika use that in her own blue truth if, at that point, one mistake would be fatal?

[Renall]

There's no real indication that anyone in ep4 liked whatever happened that night. Indeed, given that seemingly everyone but Battler ended up dead, I would say they very much didn't care for it at all!

Merely acknowledging Kinzo (whatever that means; did they see his body, a person claiming to be his heir, his will, did they all agree to lie about him being alive?) doesn't mean accepting the end result, after all.

But there's far too many ways that could be interpreted. Kanon = Kinzo is really nothing more than a dodge to try to explain something other than Shkanon or Erika-Doesn't-Exist. I don't think anyone would have even considered it but for the notion that Kinzo is very strangely and pointedly excluded from the location check.

[Kit]

Originally Posted by Heatth

Also, there is another thing. It is heavily implied the seal of the Next Room Over was broken. If not, why would Dlanor refuse to counter that when Gaap proposed? It would be simpler then denying the blue truth. Or else, why would Dlanor allow Erika use that in her own blue truth if, at that point, one mistake would be fatal?

I see your point, but if we consider Shkanon in this scenario then, I think it's really unfair for Beato to say that Kanon does NOT exist in the bedroom simply because he COULD be Shannon as well. If Shannon is both Kanon and Shannon then Kanon SHOULD exist in the bedroom. I could see how this would work if "Shkanon" killed herself as well, which is why both Kanon and Shannon appear in the Golden Land (despite the fact that everyone appeared in the golden land)...but Shannon is not listed as dead at the time of the game's suspension.

[Heatth]

And since when Beatrice is fair?

Anyway, instead saying Shannon is Kanon, how about thinking she is Shannon or Kanon (or Beatrice)? One can't exist while the other does. I would need to check the red truths to say if it is possible.

And it is not like he could be Shannon, it is just he, at that moment, was not Kanon (therefore being Shannon or Beatrice).

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Heatth

No, I just checked it. When this red text was said "the complete sealing of both the cousins' room and the next room over has been GUARANTEED.", Erika had not leaved the corridor. She sealed the rooms in no time at all. Meaning she must have been sealed retroactively.

Battler wouldn't say he was "progressing the game" in other words unpausing it after that if he was just editing past scenes. And really how does that work in human terms? It happened instantly? I still see a timing issue.

[Kit]

Originally Posted by Heatth

And since when Beatrice is fair?

Anyway, instead saying Shannon is Kanon, how about thinking she is Shannon or Kanon (or Beatrice)? One can't exist while the other does. I would need to check the red truths to say if it is possible.

And it is not like he could be Shannon, it is just he, at that moment, was not Kanon (therefore being Shannon or Beatrice).

If we consider the fantasy scenes, or any scene involving Shannon and Kanon alone, it's very possible for Shannon to be both Shannon and Kanon at the same time (if not also Beatrice).

So I'd like to rephrase - I think it's in many ways illegal to say that Kanon doesn't exist in the bedroom if Shkanon is true. If Kanon is killed in the second twilight - when that takes place is probably at the time of the logic error - then it would be illegal to say that Kanon entered the door when his persona has clearly passed. But this is evidently not the case since his persona persists until he lets Battler out of the room while Erika examined the shower. Unless, somehow, Erika was the one responsible for the second twilight like she was the first, Kanon must exist in the bedroom unless his personality is killed "again" by Shannon, when it was already killed earlier on.