2014-02-24, 10:38 | Link #33961 | |||
Senior Member
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Well, we probably will have to agree to disagree on some points, and God knows AT, Renall and I have been butting heads on these topics since way before I think, but I still wanna pick up some points to give a counter opinion.
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For Kumasawa you can construct an answer, at least I have for myself, that she is basically the origin of "the witch Beatrice" and therefore Beatrice The Older and completely separate from the genetic Beatrice lineage. She kind of DID create the whole fantasy of the witch, teaching Yasu about the legends of Rokkenjima and probably fabricating a lot of the story in order to indirectly teach Yasu about her mother/grandmother. But yes, a lot of that was left dangling a bit too much to make a rounded character. It kinda runs with the theme I see in Umineko, with every single person being a sorta catbox in themselves, with limitless potential for the parts we don't witness...but it left a lot of the cast just blank and kind of uninteresting once the drama was over. I do disagree with the idea that a mystery must have an answer, though. We already had long-winded discussions about what constitutes a mystery, about the connections to Japanese anti-mystery literature that is even brought up in the text and within interviews, about genre-definitions. I think at this point it's best to just disagree though, since I understand your point, I just think it's limiting. Quote:
I would have definitely liked Ryukishi to go a little bit harder on his audience and not give into the cries of "too hard, too difficult!!" Considering that Proto-Erika was supposed to appear in EP3 already shows that a lot went all over the place, which of course happens with every serialized format but not in a good way this time. Quote:
He just doesn't know how to limit himself and when he does, he does it to many of the wrong things. I found Umineko a lot more entertaining than Higurashi, but it was also harder to discern where you could skip and where not. With Higurashi I basically skipped though all the school scenes before the Watanagashi only stopping when the music changed, with Umineko it just dragged since he continued to splice in vital information between repetition and repetition of the same things. Let's admit it, even most of the short-stories he wrote drag and could be cut down to half the size. I always wondered how much actual CONTENT lands on the cutting floor for that. |
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2014-02-24, 11:44 | Link #33962 | |
Endless Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
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If Ryu07's ultimate point with Umineko is just using a murder mystery to express some message about the subjective nature of truth, well, Rashomon made the same point in a similar way much more effectively over 60 years ago, and in only 89 minutes at that. |
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2014-02-24, 16:20 | Link #33964 | ||
Senior Member
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That a lot of the expectations many people put towards the project weren't met, that's a whole different story. I found the payoff in itself quite satisfying, just EP8 in itself quite badly written, obviously rushed and limited at just the wrong points while unnecessarily drawn out fight sequences dominated much of the Episode. Compared to other anti-mystery novels I read, I found Umineko to be quite clear and meeting the payoff that could be expected from the way it was presenting itself from pretty much the beginning of Chiru onward. Like I said, I'd consider the characters and some of the plot threads lacking...but thematically I find Umineko quite sound. It simply could have used a lot more of the meta-banter (talking about the genre, writing, mystery novels that inspired the setting, etc.) that was quite the entertaining part of EP5 and 6. One thing that still stands out like a rusty nail is Gohda. Had he actually been developed to have the affair with Natsuhi that was apparently planned for his character in the beginning he might have gone somewhere... The way it was he ended up being nothing more than the everyman among the servants who bore witness to Yasu's pranks in the time nobody else could. Quote:
I could name (and have already named over the years) several mystery stories that preceded Umineko or went alongside it, which are written with similar plots and most of them of course shorter than Umineko. Yokomizo wrote better characters, Shimada wrote more believable locked rooms, John Dickson Carr did it first and whatever...instead of now just blaming Umineko for somehow being close to being a closed book (without being perfect), shouldn't we also remember it for what it was worth? For what it did well? I'm not against criticism, do it where it is due, but it's not like it's all shit now just because it didn't become what WE wanted it to become. |
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2014-02-24, 17:52 | Link #33965 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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I'm re-reading Umineko (and writing unbelievably long comments about each part) and comparing it to the manga and the anime while doing so and I've to admit that, while the pace is awful, all the characters gets a decent and detailed introduction in their good and bad sides.
There's a lot of info about the adults and about the background you're given (for example ep 1 explains in details how Kinzo got Rokkenjima... and I remember some of us forgetting and discussing about how he could get an insland which hosted a military bases) and it all flesh out the story but... well, as it seems to drag on and on, it causes you to lose interest. For example, we've many instances in which all Rosa does with Maria is reproach her and that likely has the purpose to lead us to the scene in which she exploded later on... but they don't feel intriguing, they feel boring as they keep on repeating. George passive bullying of Battler is also important but again, we get it too many times. There's even a scene completely pointless on the boat in which Hideyoshi joins the cousins for the purpose of making more fun of Battler... when really, we had enough of it. Also, there are lose threads that aren't addressed. In Ep 1 Rosa, differently from the other chapters, acts nice with Battler, which probably influences his nice opinion of her but... feels pretty random as Rosa isn't really an understanding person with Maria and has no need to play that role with Battler. There's a huge emphasis on a grudge Eva should have for Kumasawa (as soon as she sees her she jabs at her and Kumasawa will even say Eva holds a grudge against her) but... there's no mention whatsoever about what Kumasawa did. And so on. Battler's explanations about the Ushiromiya, although relevant, often ends up being boring and there's too much chatting that yes, gives us a better view of the adults if we look at it deeper, but at a first reading is just that, pointless chatting because we don't know how to connect it. Take this bit for example: Quote:
So yes, the story might be very informative but the pacing is so awful you fall asleep in the middle of it. As for changes I guess that I would have replaced Ep 8 VN with Ep 8 manga version as it's much more emotional and informative and follows better the flow of a story. I would have preferred if the games we play with Ange were extra and not something one has to go through and Battler and Erika's duel in the VN is pretty meaningless compared to the manga's one where Erika shows all her coolness by solving Umineko bit by bit and basically by continuing the fight she had with Battler while the duel on closed rooms on the VN just seemed a way to fill space. Honestly I'll change Ep 7 as well, as it contains huge parts that are nothing else but a repeat of what we already knew (like Kuwadorian Beatrice's death) or written in a not really emotionally involving way. Honestly I got bored during the bits with Maria and Jessica. Yes, they give some additional info but not only Will said he already had solved Umineko with only the first 4 games, so he didn't need those bits, but the only key information on them for his solution is that Lion isn't present when Beatrice as a witch exists. Note that right in Ep 1 it's established the legend of the witch was created by Kinzo's wife to scare Rudolf and co from going in the forest (as wolves weren't scary enough for Rudolf) and the siblings later retold it to Battler and co so there's no reason why Lion's existence would stop the legend from existing as it was created prior to his birth and spread by people that weren't Kinzo. The only difference would be in the fact there would be less pranks on the island for which to blame Beatrice, but not that there wouldn't be a witch. Oh and the pacing of Yasu's story, with the constant interruptions to interview other people was annoying as well. A smoother narration, as far as I'm involved, would have been preferable. Some more development about Genji would have also be apprecciated. Genji doesn't get developed not even in our confession. Why do he accept to take part to Yasu's plan? It couldn't be money. It shouldn't be lack of moral as he doesn't apprecciate what Kinzo did to Beatrice... unless Genji has a double standard and rape isn't okay to him but serial murder is perfectly fine. And I think I would have enjoyed some more time spent on giving us a better background about Battler, his mother's death and why his life with his grandparents busied him so. Also a mention about how Shannon and Kanon look alike or that no one were to deny they were related. One of the things I disliked the most about the ShKanon solution was that no one, not even Erika with her super observation powers, noticed they've exactly teh same face. |
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2014-02-24, 20:11 | Link #33966 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
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Yeah I think there are so many basic points that are unclear that it's very hard to find a common framework in which to discuss the deeper meaning of the series. I do think that Ryukishi fully intended for the ep7 Tea Party to be taken as the truth though, even if he didn't really make that clear enough (and perhaps screwed himself over by making his readers distrust everything in the narrative).
Anyway, I guess you can only discuss one thing for so long. I hope to see you all again, When Something Else Cries |
2014-02-24, 20:14 | Link #33967 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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The difficulty of working out what I would change in Umineko really reflects the way I've consumed it. Although I do enjoy looking at the mysteries of the series, I've enjoyed that in retrospect and in the fandom. Reading the VNs for the first time was all about the entertainment value and enjoying the ride for me. Yes, Ryukishi is clearly a flawed writer, but I was pretty happy with Ryukishi almost all the time. Granted, I went the Umineko anime -> Umineko eps 5-8 -> Umineko eps 1-4 route, and while I like the anime it's not the same as the VN in terms of coherency. My attitude might be pickier if I'd read the VN from the start. So, the changes I would make are: I would bump up the difficulty level of ep 3, and perhaps of eps 5 and 6. I'd be reluctant to touch eps 5 and 6 too much, since they're my favourites of the series, but I do think the mysteries could use toughening despite it being the answers arc. Ryukishi was originally going to make ep 3 really tough, and that's something I'd like to see. There are several characters, like Gohda, Kumasawa, Nanjo, Genji, Hideyoshi, Virgilia and Ronove who don't get enough time and importance allotted to them. I'd give them more time and more plot relevance. The ep 8 manga has done some of that rather nicely for Genji's background, and it's a real pity that none of that content was in the VN. I'd especially like to know more about how Kumasawa/Nanjo/Genji felt about aiding and abetting Kinzo in locking up Beatrice 2 and trying to make her her mother resurrected. The most we seem to have got is Genji thinking "Woah, can't let that happen again! Let's take measures to secretly put Lion in the bosom of the family and hope nothing bad happens." And that is not enough. Surely, if it's not a simple plot device, Kumasawa/Nanjo/Genji have to have more depth in their reactions than that. If there have to be parallels between Kinzo and Battler present in Battler's initial cold treatment of chick Beato, something more needs to be done with them. I don't know what, but something. As it is, it's a bit creepy and vague. In ep 7, I would fill in a lot more of the gap in Yasu's time before the final conference. It's too lazy of Ryukishi to expect readers to simply fill that in from guesswork, even if Ryukishi thinks he's given enough hints. Readers just can't know for certain. The filled in gaps don't have to outright say whether and to what extent Yasu was a culprit, but her mindset around that time is important. I'd have the manga version of the hide and seek party for Ange adapted into the VN. Things like Kyrie's reaction to finding out Rudolf's secret and Rosa and Maria's interaction while hiding in Rosa's old room are a million times better than the conversations in the puzzle party. Much as I liked the puzzles, they can go to the extras section or something. I would have Ryukishi spend more time explaining the Court of Heaven and the demon communities in the meta world. I want more coherency about where Dlanor and Will and their co-workers are from and what they do. I'd also make Ryukishi drastically re-write the City of Books segment. I'd want more details about the place, and maybe for them to briefly look at another fragment or meet some new characters there. Battler vs Bern would simply not happen, because I found it boring. Lambda vs Bern would definitely happen, there or shifted to elsewhere in the story, because I thought it was great. None of that stuff about Tohya deciding not to put Eva's diary on display at the last minute. We would get to read it, and/or it would not be a book of the one truth. I wouldn't mind if there was some ambiguity about the authorship or if sections were missing; maybe Ange could remember Eva chucking a diary onto the fire but then changing her mind and retrieving it. Regardless: Ange would not get to see anything that audience couldn't also see. Erika would get an ending that didn't leave her stuck with Bern at the end. Something more positive. Other than that, I'd make the trick ending less of a "you chose wrong!" ending, and I'd try to excise any of the ~a man's dream is different from a woman's dream~ stuff from the text that I possibly could. That stuff Ryukishi said in interviews was weird and unwanted. When the seagulls cried, none of that weird stuff would be left alive in the VN. |
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2014-02-25, 14:46 | Link #33969 |
The True Culprit
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It's more like
X = Beatrice buys off an accomplice, Y = People have motives that could rise to killing, Z = The bomb wipes the board clean. The bomb is definitely Rule Z, but Bernkastel has strongly implied that rules X and Y are constantly changing as variables, which is why she can't trial-and-error her way through Beatrice's game.
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2014-02-26, 18:56 | Link #33970 |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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I don't remember if the rules X/Y/Z from Higurashi are supposed to mirror the rules from Umineko, so:
In Higurashi: X: Someone will go paranoid (random factor) Y: Tomitake and Takano will die (fixed factor) Y: Atmosphere surrounding the Sonozaki, making them look like the culprits. Sonozaki Bluff (the element making the truth harder to see) If I try to mirror that X: Someone will be chosen to be an accomplice at random Y: In the end, everybody dies (if things go according to plan) Z: Beatrice bluffing that she is behind the murders even in prime, when it is in fact someone else (island blowing up helps the bluff)
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2014-02-26, 22:49 | Link #33971 |
The True Culprit
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I remember that Higurashi didn't have a 'random' factor, since Bernkastel specifically describes it as a thing that is beaten by her Trial-and-Error endurance tactics. That Beatrice's rules don't parallel her own situation is why Bern is explicitly terrified of her power.
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2014-02-27, 01:18 | Link #33972 |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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In the prologue of Minagoroshi-hen, they pretty much describe the rules:
Rule X: "A random individual, overrun by paranoia, is urged to commit murder" Rule Y: "Every year, Tomitake Jirou and Takano Miyo get killed on the night of the Watanagashi festival" Rule Z: "Whatever happens, the Sonozakis have a tradition of bluffing, pretending to be the culprit. In order to appear more influential, the Sonozakis pretend to be responsible for any event that they could use to their advantage"
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2014-02-27, 03:00 | Link #33973 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
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So, I happened to ask akatokuro from Stupid Goats about some of the Ryukishi quotes she seemed to have access to that I've not seen here on AnimeSuki. I got some pretty interesting responses:
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She also posted some Japanese scans of an interview, I wonder if anyone here could try to translate some of that? |
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2014-02-27, 03:32 | Link #33975 |
The True Culprit
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It's pretty obvious in retrospect; not just that they are never in the same room together, but also that they are both the only ones who can interact with Beatrice before 1986, are the only 'real' characters who can remember other Gameboards, and their dialog makes it pretty clear that they're essentially more deeply connected to Beatrice than any other characters in the series.
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2014-02-27, 05:19 | Link #33976 | |
Senior Member
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Well, I hope nobody else is already translating and I'm doing this work for nothing, but just to have a short overview over what I found in these 3 pages that I didn't know so far (or maybe didn't remember) and found interesting to note.
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2014-02-27, 07:09 | Link #33977 |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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While I loved the shit out of EP8 while reading it because it was a very enjoyable ride, heck it was sloppily written! This seems to be the case with all of Chiru, but it is especially apparent in EP8, and this only proves Ryukishi is aware of this himself. I think he had said in an interview with Keiya that he'd like to go back and re-write Umineko all over again if he's still writing after ten years or something, I'm starting to feel like that would be the best thing that could happen to the series.
Btw, wow, sexism again? Seriously?
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2014-02-27, 10:15 | Link #33978 | |||
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Thanks for posting that info, Drifloon! And the information from that interview is amazing. Thanks for the quick overview of it, Haguruma!
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Makes me want to go and read some Edogawa Rampo books. Looks as if the ones I could get hold of are The Fiend with Twenty Faces, The Black Lizard, and Moju. Moju's description is a bit too much on the gory side for me, so I'll skip that one. Quote:
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Captain Bluebird, you and Ryukishi are probably right about him needing to go and overhaul Umineko. Much as I love the series it could use that re-write badly. Last edited by GoldenLand; 2014-02-27 at 10:31. |
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2014-02-27, 10:54 | Link #33979 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
Age: 27
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Episode 7 beats whole Rondo.
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2014-02-27, 11:38 | Link #33980 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I'm curious: Which aspect of feminine-oriented love is it that makes you decide to kill yourself over things you know aren't actually true, and why is that in any way an admirable thing and not a sign of serious depression or severe mental illness? I guess I'm just too male to understand.
Nevermind that the characters in his own story contradict these weird notions he keeps advancing in interviews:
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