2012-12-21, 03:48 | Link #21 | |||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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And furthermore, he killed two people with his own hands (granted the first accidentally)... if I were to kill someone accidentally I would atleast respond with some level of shock for the horrible thing that i just did; which would quickly be followed by intense guilt and remorse. To feel no emotion when you accidentally kill someone or out right commit murder is a terrible trait And Kayaba DID have the intention to kill people... he crafted this scenirio KNOWING full well that people would die. He himself pushed them to fight the bosses knowing that many of them would not make it. He entered into that final duel with Kirito knowing that should he win he would kill kirito; he fought kirito with the fullintention to kill him, he jsut accepted the possibility that he himself might loose... And if the players got to the top, he fully intended to kill every last player that came against him until one (if any) managed to kill him. Quote:
He didn't want to make a world; he wanted to play a game that involved people's lives Quote:
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2012-12-21, 04:34 | Link #22 | ||||
Okuyasu the Bird
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alberta, Canada
Age: 32
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You can throw all the blame on to Kayaba being aware of what he was doing all you want, but the fact of the matter is that none of the deaths were things he had control over after he put them in the game. They were all deaths that would occur naturally in a "world". What you're arguing is like someone dying to a wild animal on a nature reserve and then blaming the owner of the reserve being completely responsible for their death. That's just silly. Quote:
And for another real-world comparison about Kayaba driving others towards their deaths, what you're saying is like when two countries go to war, the one responsible for all the people dying on either side are the armies' respective commanders. As if. He was just doing his duty as a guild leader. And how do you know that "playing a game with people's lives" is what Kayaba wanted? Did he ever say that? I don't think so. Quote:
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2012-12-21, 04:49 | Link #23 | ||||
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It just means he's able to empathize with Kayaba's victims more. And if you look closely, he's actually done a quite thorough analysis of Kayaba's character despite constantly calling him a monster. You disagreeing with it does not mean it's wrong.
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2012-12-21, 07:57 | Link #24 | |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Kayaba didn't care about the lives of his victims, and that's why he was able to use them in the way he did. If you did the same as him, you'd also be a villain responsible for 4000 deaths. Trapping people in a death game and not caring about the lives of one's victims is very much not the same thing as not caring about people you have no connection to who may be dying somewhere in the world. Really? That seems a very simplistic and silly view of law and of humans. I'd say that law is one method for regulating the conduct of large groups of people. By living in society, people as a whole can potentially gain huge benefits. Might be nice for you to imagine that humans and law can be boiled down to "Uggg! Me strong! Me smash heads with rocks!" and "Ugg! Me weak! Me no like one who smashes head with rocks, so me invent...law! Now me have all the power!" but things are waaaaay more complicated than that. |
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2012-12-21, 08:41 | Link #25 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Age: 31
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Is it nonsense, that the world was thrown into a financial crisis by some 100 bank managers? Is it nonsense, that in Africa people die, because of hunger while for example Mc Donalds throws away their food 15 minutes after they had prepared it? Is it nonsense, that all wars around the world are started by selfish desires of the governments? And pls, what is done against that? Or to say it better, does that show any results at all? As long as people have the might who support this way of acting, things won't change. And unfortunately once people with other ideals have the might they quickly succumb to that might aswell; recent example: Egypt... Quote:
As you have said, he was roleplaying and his role that he seeked for himself was the villian. Does a real villian show pity for the people he just murdered? In the end as Kirito stuck his sword into Kayaba, didn't you see his smile? He was smiling, because Kirito fulfilled his role in his play as hero while he fulfilled his role as villian till his death. On the other hand pls remember the task Kirito gave Kayaba for the case that he would die in this battle: to (at least for some time) hinder Asuna's suicide. If he would be really a monster without any pity for the people living in SAO, why accept that task? He had to show no emotion for keeping his play up and although the play in itself was madness at best, he never went out of his role... That roleplay was also the reason for the floors with boss battles at the end: he wanted to be the final boss, the true mastermind behind all that and he wanted to be hated so that a hero could slay him. As he said in the first episode he solely made SAO for his own enjoyment, but still he was actually part of this game and helped the people. Quote:
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2012-12-21, 09:59 | Link #26 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2009
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So, to his way of thinking, he didn't so much imprison them in a death game, as he kidnapped them away to an alternate reality. Players and people on the outside could have been cautious enough that no one died, and the kill functions he put in place were never used, and he would have been just as happy because he had his reality. |
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2012-12-21, 10:20 | Link #27 | ||||||||
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Second if the only reason the bosses existed was to market his world as a game, then he only needed to have them in the beta version. In the official version he could have had all of the bosses locked out and given the players free access to all 100 floors; no one would notice the bosses were missing until after the players were trapped. Third, He also did not have to give them encouragement to fight the bosses by offering them their freedom. By taking away their freedom, their hopes, dreams, family and friends and then offering it as a prize for beating the top floor he encouraged players to put their lives at risk knowing full well that thousands of them would die in the process. Without that offer, the players would have never even bothered to fight the first boss. He himself played a role as Heathcliff to further push the players to risking their lives... this was not necessarily if all he wanted to do was create a world Quote:
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2012-12-21, 10:20 | Link #28 | |
Endless Sorceror
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
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I don't have time to say much, but I'll say I think you're severely misreading Kirito's and Asuna's reactions in episode 14. They aren't sympathizing with Kayaba's dream. They are empathizing with it. The dream itself was never evil. Only the methods used to achieve it. And again, that they had just won, saving the lives of the 6000 other people at the cost of their own. Kirito volunteered to fight Kayaba then and there, he knew full well what he was getting into and what the consequences might be for himself.
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Last edited by Oroboro; 2012-12-21 at 10:38. |
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2012-12-21, 13:11 | Link #29 |
Carbon
Join Date: Nov 2003
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I think this is a good idea to post this..
funny how the guy is also a hologram http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vax6ipkgGz8 ..
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2012-12-21, 13:59 | Link #30 | |||||||
Okuyasu the Bird
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alberta, Canada
Age: 32
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The "creating and preserving a world" goal is not villainous. Folks are just using the excuse that people have died for the sake creating this "world" as a means to label him as a villain. Quote:
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And his only reason for proposing people they could escape by reaching the top floor was because if he didn't it's likely everyone would have just cowered in the starting city. He needed people to go out and think less of this place as "prison" and more of a "world". Quote:
Also if his goal was to play with lives as you say, wouldn't he be entertained by it? He's never shown any satisfaction or amusement towards anyone dying. A person entertained by this wouldn't just go "meh, whatever". Quote:
Overall it just seems to me you can't empathize with Kayaba's goal to "create a world". Death is something necessary in a world so it needed to be there. Struggle is something necessary in a "world" so it needed to be there. You know what? The good things about a "world" were there too, and Kirito even experienced it himself first hand. I'd say if you were in Kayaba's "world" and all you saw was a "death game devised by some human monster", then you're completely missing the point. Quote:
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2012-12-21, 15:04 | Link #31 |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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Something that seems to be lost here is that Kayaba was trying to create a narrative, in addition to creating his world. He said as much when Kirito revealed him after the 75th floor boss fight. He wanted to create a dramatic story with a hero and a villain. He was of course playing the role of the villain. So trying to understand him as "the hero of his own story" is a bit misguided because he was literally the villain of his own story. He never saw himself as anything but that. Furthermore, I don't think it's reasonable to argue that he actually cared about anyone's lives. Obviously he wouldn't have done any of this if he thought other people's lives had much value.
On the other hand, it's still true that his story didn't require anyone to die. It would have been miraculous, but they theoretically could have gotten out with no deaths at all. And, honestly, maybe that would have been a better story. More heroic, more epic. Of course, to keep the drama there needed to be real danger, otherwise people would think "it's just a game" and not care what happens. In fact, that exact thing happened in ALO, where a large portion of the audience suddenly stopped caring, and the players themselves hardly care about all the faction drama they're shoveling around. So... overall I'd say it's wrong to look at him as "playing with people's lives", but it's also wrong to look at him as completely indifferent. I think he sees himself as something like the director of a movie, except much less involved. The host of a game show? Well, the obvious answer is that he sees himself as a god. Above other people, but still looking down on them with interest. He cares about their stories, he cares about their lives, he just doesn't care how they end. |
2012-12-21, 15:33 | Link #32 | |
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Location: InterWebs
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2012-12-21, 15:52 | Link #34 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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2012-12-21, 16:17 | Link #35 | |||||||||||
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Though it's an imperfect example. First off the murderous doctor in that scene killed thousands of people but supposedly he did it for good reasons. What he did was immoral and unethical, but he ultimately had good intentions in that he knew his research would more than make up for all the harm he caused and go on to help millions. You can see why people would condemn him, but you can also see how some might try to defend his actions. It makes his situation more complicated... Kayaba however, had only selfish reasons for what he did. He created his own personal world which included the suffering of 10,000 innocent people and toyed with their lives for his own personal satisfaction. How can you defend such a pure act of selfishness? Futharmore, the scene shows the intense tension that the doctor feels as he considers what the murderous doctor says. He see's some logic in what he says, but his feelings for what he has done can not be ignored and it causes inner conflict for him. Kirito showed no such inner conflict when he met with kayaba in ALO... like i said, meetings like this are complicated as new and old feelings conflict; if he helps you out and you hate the guy for what he did in the past, you won't know whether to thank him or punch him in the face... to not have that sense of tension means to ignore the horrible things he's done in the past
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2012-12-21, 16:56 | Link #36 | |
18782+18782=37564
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2012-12-21, 16:58 | Link #37 |
Endless Sorceror
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Wisconsin
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At this point the discussion becomes more about Kirito. Both times he met the man, he had just gotten out of an intense battle. So adrenaline drains away. Kirito really doesn't have much of a personal reason to get pissed off and indignant towards Kayba. He had his moment of playing the hero and getting back at him for everyone else's sake. Afterwords, he freed everyone else, at the presumed cost of his life, and he was granted a few final moments with the one he loved. He asked Kayaba "Why?", Kayaba gave his answer, and Kirito likely saw a bit of himself in that dream.
But like he said to Sugou a dozen episodes later, "I never wanted to be him." And their exchange after ALO was more bewildered than anything. "Aren't you dead?" "Yep." "K... Thanks I guess." "It's not like I like you or anything. Here, take this." "Neat." Kirito doesn't really have a personal reason to hate the guy. It might sound selfish, but Kirito already took it upon himself to fight for everyone else's sake. He won. That battle is over, and finished. Why dwell on it?
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2012-12-22, 06:59 | Link #38 | |
Human
Join Date: Aug 2004
Age: 37
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Um... I was also sort of indirectly responding to an earlier idea that Kayaba was treating Kirito like a threat, which I don't think is true at all. Kirito is his greatest achievement, really. The true hero born from Kayaba's world. I think Kayaba's honestly kind of proud of him. |
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2012-12-22, 22:39 | Link #39 |
Oshite mairu!!!
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ware wa Kuu. Ware wa Kou. Ware wa Jin!
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Look here people. Bottom line is that what Kayaba wanted to create was another world. Another complete and functioning reality. Only difference is that it had monsters, dungeons, a floating castle and other mmorpg stuff in it. If this was the case then of course the element of death will be inevitably present. I mean thousands die in reality every single day either by natural or not so natural causes. You guys are free to paint the real world as a peaceful utopia but unfortunately that's not the case (and it never has). So killing people was definitely not Kayaba's goal. It's just that it was a necessary element in order to create another functioning reality. And it's not like they absolutely had to hunt monsters or traverse dungeons to survive. They could actually settle down in a lower floor away from the front lines and live relatively peaceful lives like those fishermen. If Kayaba wanted only a pure death game then these things should not have been made possible and people should have been under constant threat of death. In the end though one of the greatest threats to human lives in SAO were humans themselves (i.e. Laughing Coffin).
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2012-12-23, 00:34 | Link #40 |
Marauder Shields
Join Date: Sep 2012
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I'm surprised how hard some people are trying to justify what Kayaba did.
Real life is real life and we have absolutelsy no choise but to live in it and accept death. In reall life death is unavoidable and it will get everyone sooner or later. The difference to real life is that Kayaba had always th option, because he was basically God in this game. With power comes responsibility. Kayaba had the power of life and death. Kayaba created this fucking game after all. He gave himself the right to force people to play this game and he put the threat of really dying in his game despite having the option to not do that. The argument that he wanted to make it just like real life is absurd and absolutely no excuse for that. He is responsible for all the deaths simply because he is the one that made death possible knowing very well that people will die. He had the power to end this nonsense and spare people lifes, but he simply didn't care. It's like me kidnapping people to a fucking island full of carnivores and then force those people to live there. I have the power to end the dying but i just don't do it because i want to hawe my own little world. There is nothing that can excuse or justify that. And yeah, I find it disgusting how people are trying to justify/excuse or seem to be ok with what he did because " yeah , he wanted to creat a game that is like like real world and he had to add death on it". I can just facpalm when I read something like that. Besides, where is the reast of "like real life"? Where is the feeling of pain and where is rape and the other crap that people have to deal with in real life?Why just stop with allowing death and not the rest? where is the line crossed and it is not acceptable anymore? @Swordstriker21 Sure, people should just have accepted that some guy forced them in this game and they should have just settled down. It's theire own fault that they want to go back to reality. It's their own damn fault that they want to go back to their families, lovers, friends and how could they even dare to oppose God(Kayaba). Kayaba was absolutely right with hindering them to escape. All people in the world that are under oppression should just accept it and settle down because fighting for thier right of freedon will lead to death. I hope the sarcasm is clear. @Read my post againg, then think about about what I was saying, and how I was saying it and think about the context of it before you make posts like this. Thank you. |
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