Is Sasuke Justified in Seeking Revenge Againast Konoha? [Anime]

[Divinegundam]

Originally Posted by xKeir

Before the massacre , Itachi asked the 3rd to keep it a Secret. The 3rd agreed.

The 'threaten' part comes in only years later after the Massacre and after Itachi had joined the Akatsuki. Itachi sensed that something was wrong and intentionally made a appearence in Konoha with Kisame on the cover that he was here to kidnap Naruto for the Akatsuki. He wanted the Elders to know that he was still around to keep an eye on Sasuke and warned them that should they try anything he'd expose the secret of the Uchiha Massacre. Remember the fight between Kisame/Itachi VS Kakashi/Gai/Kurenai/Asuma ? It may have appeared as though Itachi had came for Naruto at that time but it was later proven that that wasn't his true intentions for appearing in Konoha. Think about it rationally , Itachi could easily kidnap Naruto with his skills. He didn't have to do it with Jiraiya around. He was there for Sasuke , and was on the pretense of attempting to kidnap Naruto on the Akatsuki's orders as a sound excuse for appearing. I think Danzo mentioned something about it before his death of Itachi's intentions.

Sly itachi is sly :P

Back on Topic -
When talking about justifying against seeking revenge on Konoha i apply Kyrie Ushiromiya's Flip The Chessboard mentality.

So if i were Sasuke i'd follow in his way and 'attempt' to destroy the fuckin village who killed his clan in his opinion. To him Konoha are but a bunch of pretentious peeps who only prospered with the downfall of his clan. Added to the fact that Tobi is always beside him giving him ideas.

It may sound funny , but did anyone watch the movie The Dark Knight [Batman]?

The Joker = Tobi
Harvey Dent = Sasuke

All he needs is a little push. In his eyes since the village is only where it is today by the destruction of the Uchiha Clan he wants the village dead to equal the loss his people faced. The 4 people who came to the decision : Sarutobi , Danzo & the 2 Elders. Sarutobi already died. Danzo was killed by Sasuke. That leaves the 2 Elders. Maybe i got it wrong , but when asked by Hebi and Tobi in a random conversation somewhere in the Anime [i forgot which episode ..] Sasuke said his aim was to kill the 2 village elders after Danzo had died. Tobi den went on to say that if he were to aim for the 2 village elders the underlings aka Konoha would protect the 2 elders. So Sasuke went on to say he will kill everyone who stands in his way.

I'd say those 2 Elders deserve to die if we follow Sasuke's point of view. Even Chiyo had pointed out moments before her death that the old generation of Shinobi and Elders were but a bunch of war-headed fools who were wrong to have thread on the paths they took. The Elders are actually much like Danzo in the sense they prioritize the Leaf before everything else.

Still , rationally speaking killing a ENTIRE village because of a decision made by a bunch of 4 old people is plain crazy. I like how someone above mentioned that Sasuke isn't justified to go after people like Kurenai's unborn son. They shouldn't have to pay for what another had done. Thats actually the same thing Sasuke feels about himself. What makes the Leaf justified to go after the Uchiha Clan just because they are too strong? The Uchiha clan also had young kids and all. But they were deemed too dangerous and got killed.

Its a completely one-sided thing.

On one hand Sasuke in his POV isn't wrong.
However , Humanely speaking thats just insane.

Spoiler for Spoiler from Manga:

I'd just hope Itachi can get Sasuke back to the way of Light. I'd love to see Sasuke's expression when he sees that Itachi is alive. Would Itachi even attempt to explain things to Sasuke and try to get him back ? oh so many things need to be explained :3

So i guess what i'm saying is logically speaking Sasuke is wrong for his warped ideas to destroy Konoha. But i don't wrong him for his decisions personally.

Sarutobi was actually against the massacre plan he was out voted by the elders and danzo.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by White Silver King

If Sasuke's logic was sound, he wouldn't be entitled to revenge because everyone would seek retribution against him because of the mistakes as an Uchiha. If the wrongs of a few allow you to punish the majority, the people of Konoha should have been able to justify killing the Uchiha clan because of the crimes of Madara, an Uchiha. Sasuke's just a hypocritical narcissist.

That is wrong, because Madara was not the leader of Uchiha when he commited those crimes, it's the opposite, the Uchiha have joined the village instead of Madara. On the other hand the village elders were the representatives of the whole village, and as such they ordered the killing of an entire clan. And of course the 3rd hokage is also responsible as the leader, since the story says he was not in control of what happened, Danzou was not under his control.

But of course that doesn't mean that anyone else then Danzou and Tobi were responsible for all what happened, since all the others were just either following orders without knowing the truth or in the case of the 2 elder advisors they just chose what they believed is the lesser bad, just like Itachi did. This should be obvious to Sasuke if he were not completely obsessed with his revenge. The 3rd hokage can be blamed only for not having the mental strength to kill the inner enemy of konoha, that is Danzou and Orochimaru, and because of this only weakness of the 3rd many people have died. Sure it's hard to kill a childhood friend, but he should have done that the moment he realized that the guy is building his own private army (root).

[xKeir]

Originally Posted by Divinegundam

Sarutobi was actually against the massacre plan he was out voted by the elders and danzo.

I know that ...?

Because right after the 3rd's death that was why Itachi felt compelled to make the trip to Konoha because he was worried about Sasuke since Sasuke was now vulnerable to the 3 old foxes [The 2 Elders & Danzo] after the 3rd had passed on and no one was there to keep a look out for him.

[Divinegundam]

Originally Posted by xKeir

I know that ...?

Because right after the 3rd's death that was why Itachi felt compelled to make the trip to Konoha because he was worried about Sasuke since Sasuke was now vulnerable to the 3 old foxes [The 2 Elders & Danzo] after the 3rd had passed on and no one was there to keep a look out for him.

OK I was just commenting on this sentence" The 4 people who came to the decision : Sarutobi , Danzo & the 2 Elders"

[xKeir]

Originally Posted by Divinegundam

OK I was just commenting on this sentence" The 4 people who came to the decision : Sarutobi , Danzo & the 2 Elders"

Well yeah i get your point. U know .. sometimes i just wishes Sarutobi had been more like Tsunade. I mean look at Tsunade. She takes advise from the 2 Elders. But she doesn't always submit to those advises. She doesn't even bother about Danzo [which i actually find amusing , even though she regards him as a threat , work wise she completely disregards him leaving him alone with his Root]

Strictly speaking if Sarutobi had stood his ground he'd have been able to stop everything. Whats the point of being Hokage if you have to leave it to 'votes' just to make a decision? The Elders are there to give ADVISE. Not tell u what to do. Danzo ... is just a war veteran. Learn a page from Tsunade and just ignore him. That being said , i slightly feel that deep within even though Sarutobi was against the Uchiha Clan massacre he DID feel that the Uchiha were a threat. That was why even though he felt the massacre wasn't necessary he wasn't entirely against it because he had to weigh the protection of Konoha against his decision.

I guess what im trying to say is , Sarutobi could have been more adamant in his decision to protect the Uchiha's , but he didn't because he too knew the so-called 'Threat' the Uchiha posed.

OR , Women are just plain over-bearing like Tsunade. You just can't out-talk them.

PS - No offense to all women of all ages out there

[Divinegundam]

Originally Posted by xKeir

Well yeah i get your point. U know .. sometimes i just wishes Sarutobi had been more like Tsunade. I mean look at Tsunade. She takes advise from the 2 Elders. But she doesn't always submit to those advises. She doesn't even bother about Danzo [which i actually find amusing , even though she regards him as a threat , work wise she completely disregards him leaving him alone with his Root]

Strictly speaking if Sarutobi had stood his ground he'd have been able to stop everything. Whats the point of being Hokage if you have to leave it to 'votes' just to make a decision? The Elders are there to give ADVISE. Not tell u what to do. Danzo ... is just a war veteran. Learn a page from Tsunade and just ignore him. That being said , i slightly feel that deep within even though Sarutobi was against the Uchiha Clan massacre he DID feel that the Uchiha were a threat. That was why even though he felt the massacre wasn't necessary he wasn't entirely against it because he had to weigh the protection of Konoha against his decision.

I guess what im trying to say is , Sarutobi could have been more adamant in his decision to protect the Uchiha's , but he didn't because he too knew the so-called 'Threat' the Uchiha pose
OR , Women are just plain over-bearing like Tsunade. You just can't out-talk them.

PS - No offense to all women of all ages out there

I agree he should have been stronger on the matter.... Genocide is never the answer. If minato was alive he wouldn't (I hope) have allowed it. Sarutobi was suppose to be retired as hokage, possible becoming a elder and with Minato they could have forced a better solution. If minato and Sarutobi were willing to fight for it no one could have stood in their way. Or another solution could be making some uchiha elders.

Also point out that danzo's reason for voting in favor (or rather manipulating the elders with shushi's sharingan, if he had it at the time) of genocide is to gain the sharingan, personally I don't buy that he was looking out for the interests of Konoha. He was looking for more power so he could take leadership of the village by force however with Sarutobi death and a few years later Nagato's attack he did so with little effort.

[White Silver King]

What exactly did Madara do that was wrong ...?

Uhm, nine-tailed fox rampage that killed a shit ton of people?

Just curious, but what exactly has Sasuke done that would make his desire for revenge hypocritical?

Not sure what you're getting at with the logic bit, though.

I explained it in my post. He's persecuting all of Konoha because of the actions of a very small group of people. Meanwhile, Madara (Tobi), a member of the Uchiha clan (at least Sasuke believes him to be), released the Nine-Tails and killed a TON of people. By Sasuke's logic, even if it had nothing to do with the fox, the Elders slaughter of the Uchiha is justifiable on the same priniciple.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by White Silver King

Uhm, nine-tailed fox rampage that killed a shit ton of people?

That was as Tobi, and long after Madara's time to boot. To our knowledge, the only time Madara (as himself) used the Kyuubi was against the Shodaime at the VoTE. Unless I'm having some epic memory failure, or something.

I explained it in my post. He's persecuting all of Konoha because of the actions of a very small group of people. Meanwhile, Madara (Tobi), a member of the Uchiha clan (at least Sasuke believes him to be), released the Nine-Tails and killed a TON of people. By Sasuke's logic, even if it had nothing to do with the fox, the Elders slaughter of the Uchiha is justifiable on the same priniciple.

Sasuke doesn't know up until this point that Tobi is to blame for the Kyuubi attack, as far as I know. That aside, yes, Sasuke's logic is pretty much the same as the Elders' (in that they condemned a majority for the crimes of a few). But that's exactly why his desire for revenge is understandable; as someone else said, it's an eye for an eye to him. They slaughtered the Uchiha Clan because a handful of them were planning a coup d'etat, so he wants to destroy Konoha because a few of them destroyed his clan (and screwed over Itachi). It is somewhat hypocritical, true, but it's also not really fair to make it sound so simple, because it isn't.

[Casshern]

Konoha knew it was tobi who used the 9tails, and then they used tobi to massacre the uchiha. Doesn't make any sense. The massacre was just as wrong as sasuke's revenge. That might not justify it, but it's more than a good excuse.

As for minato, or even naruto for that matter, if they were in charge they would have walked smack-bang into the center of the the uchiha neighborhood and dared any rebell to step up. Then he would have whoopped all their asses and asked if anyone else has a problem. No rebellion, no massacre.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Konoha knew it was tobi who used the 9tails

no they didnt. only minato knew and it was right before he died. it has always been known in konoha as a natural disaster of sorts. I'm sure the elders suspected different, but they didnt know of tobi at that time.

and then they used tobi to massacre the uchiha. Doesn't make any sense.

they used itachi. again, they didnt know of tobi's involvement.

[Casshern]

Didn't Sarutobi see Tobi before Minato and him moved elsewhere? I could be wrong but I thought he saw him.

[El_Negro]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Didn't Sarutobi see Tobi before Minato and him moved elsewhere? I could be wrong but I thought he saw him.

No, I don't think he did, otherwise ANBU would've been on the lookout for him, only person who confirmed Tobi's existence at the time was Itachi and Minato. To kickass ninjas for their times respectively.

[xKeir]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Didn't Sarutobi see Tobi before Minato and him moved elsewhere? I could be wrong but I thought he saw him.

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Nine-Ta...tack_on_Konoha

Well the wikia may not be a 100% correct. But i couldn't recall much so i went to look at it. Minato and Tobi were fighting at a separate location. Sarutobi didn't get to see Tobi at all. he was busy fighting the 9-Tails waiting for Minato to come back to help them.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by xKeir

http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Nine-Ta...tack_on_Konoha

Well the wikia may not be a 100% correct. But i couldn't recall much so i went to look at it. Minato and Tobi were fighting at a separate location. Sarutobi didn't get to see Tobi at all. he was busy fighting the 9-Tails waiting for Minato to come back to help them.

it makes sense since when minato told naruto about tobi's involvement (when they spoke inside naruto's head during the pain fight) it was a revelation in the manga as far as the good characters were concerned at least. in other words, naruto was the first modern day 'good' character to learn of it. sasuke was told of his involvement in the massacre by itachi prior to that of course. and I'm just referring to the 'masked akatsuki' character not whether or not madara = tobi since itachi said it was madara who helped him kill the clan.

[23 gundam fan]

Originally Posted by Casshern

Sasuke's revenge isn't justifiable, but not irrational either. The elders decided to kill those who were weak and innocent amongst the Uchiha, not just the ones responsible for the planned rebellion. Since the elders killed all Uchiha indiscriminately, the only equivalent revenge is to kill all konoha equally indiscriminately. An eye for an eye, is what Sasuke wants. Just as the Elders took everything from him, so he wishes to destroy everything they wanted to protect.

It might not be fair on those innocent people simply living their lives, but that's the fate the elders carved out for them with their act of genocide. To think they would get away with such a crime is what is irrational. Sasuke is entirely the consequence to their deeds.

Sasuke is wrong, at least on a moral level, and he may have been driven mad, but the revenge itself isn't irrational.

i agree at large with you, as far as sasuke wanting to kill the people of konoha who had nothing to do with the elders actions. well the elders didnt care about the innocent uchiha who were killed. remember the young such as sasuke didnt know about the coup, so really every innocent the elders had killed is innocent blood that is on konoha. sasuke is simply saying to konoha, fine have it your way, you didnt care so i wont naruto hasnt considered that if elders had there way he never would have known sasuke. the village is paying for it own sin in the form of sasuke. he is the reminder of the crimes of the village. at the end of the day konoha had the means to take out only those who were involved in the coup, but instead went about killing a whole clan. to me that is a major crime.

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by 23 gundam fan

i agree at large with you, as far as sasuke wanting to kill the people of konoha who had nothing to do with the elders actions. well the elders didnt care about the innocent uchiha who were killed. remember the young such as sasuke didnt know about the coup, so really every innocent the elders had killed is innocent blood that is on konoha. sasuke is simply saying to konoha, fine have it your way, you didnt care so i wont naruto hasnt considered that if elders had there way he never would have known sasuke. the village is paying for it own sin in the form of sasuke. he is the reminder of the crimes of the village. at the end of the day konoha had the means to take out only those who were involved in the coup, but instead went about killing a whole clan. to me that is a major crime.

They didn't really have the means to kill only certain Uchiha, though. Even if Itachi had delivered to them a perfect list of who the conspirators were and they killed only those Uchiha, what exactly do you think the survivors would do? It's hard to say what exactly would have come of that, but it's not hard to see the survivors inciting a civil war anyway simply for revenge. If nothing else, I'd like to think Sarutobi would have gone that route if he felt he could.

The massacre may have been evil, but it was probably a necessary one.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Akashin

They didn't really have the means to kill only certain Uchiha, though. Even if Itachi had delivered to them a perfect list of who the conspirators were and they killed only those Uchiha, what exactly do you think the survivors would do? It's hard to say what exactly would have come of that, but it's not hard to see the survivors inciting a civil war anyway simply for revenge. If nothing else, I'd like to think Sarutobi would have gone that route if he felt he could.

The massacre may have been evil, but it was probably a necessary one.

but it could have been the exact same plan with itachi killing only the conspirators and then leaving the village. that way itachi would be blamed by the surviving uchiha as a psychotic killer. they wouldnt even suspect the village of staging it since nobody left alive would have known of the conspiracy to attack konoha in the first place

[Akashin]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but it could have been the exact same plan with itachi killing only the conspirators and then leaving the village. that way itachi would be blamed by the surviving uchiha as a psychotic killer. they wouldnt even suspect the village of staging it since nobody left alive would have known of the conspiracy to attack konoha in the first place

Killing just those involved in planning the coup d'etat doesn't sound like something a psychotic killer would do though. And while those left alive may not know there was a coup in the works, they probably did at least have some idea of which ones among them were dissatisfied with their clan's position in Konoha (and that dissatisfaction goes more or less hand in hand with supporting the coup). I'd like to think any halfway intelligent person among them would at least be suspicious of that, and wouldn't take Itachi's actions at face value.

[Hunter]

I very much doubt there were many people within the Uchiha clan who weren't dissatified with their governement after they forced them all to live secluded from the rest of the village under suspicion of the greatest crime in the history of Konoha. In fact I'm pretty sure nearly the entire clan was activally working in favor of the coup.
The thing is, I happen to think the Uchiha were entirely correct in their assessment, their only fault lies in the fact that they failed and died as a result. The day your governement secludes all of your kin/ethny from the rest of the population is the day you have to flee, fight back or accept that the fate of your owns is in the hand of people who want you no good.
The Uchiha had very good reason to plan a coup d'etat, what they should have done is plan better.

But to return on Sasuke (and ignoring that I think he turned to dark side of sheer stupidity and/or insanity) I actually think that he'd have a good reason to destroy most if not all of Konoha even if he was thinking rationally.
The Elders aren't just anyone, they are two third of Konoha's governement, just getting to them probably mean a huge fight with lot of casualities in Konoha's rank and then once it's done what would Sasuke do? He would be a rogue ninja with a death warrant on his head hidding, from every living Konoha ninja.
It is pretty much the same rational Danzou and the elders shared, it may be montruous be it makes perfect sense to utterly destroy Konoha if Sasuke intends to get away with his revenge and start his clan anew later.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Itachi's decision about killing everyone instead of just those involved could have more than one good reason, and by good i mean good by the logic of the Narutoverse.

We see how they became a cursed clan, as Tobi explained their history, as Itachi explained how they usually gained the MS, etc. So going by that logic Itachi wanted to end this curse, to end the eternal fight between the descendants of the older and younger sons of the sage of 6 paths.

It is probable that Itachi did exactly know what will Danzou and Tobi do with the remaining weak ones, that is children, women and elders. To prevent their possibly painful and slow death, or to prevent the disgrace that the Uchiha clan is being killed by the root anbu or some henchmen of Tobi he chose to do it himself. We know how both Danzou and Tobi collected eyes, they would have killed these people sooner or later, because they were defensless without the strong ones.

And finally, we still don't know what exactly happened then, we know Tobi was involved, we know that when Sasuke went home Tobi wasn't there, and we know there was no real battle because nobody noticed anything in the village. So it seems to be a mystery, which might be explained if Kishimoto in some flashbacks. I mean there could be other circumstances why Itachi decided to do what he did.