AnimeSuki Forums

Warm Mist · 2012-07-18, 00:24

Sorry to break this down to everyone, but there is nothing more devoid of meaning as the "test of time" criteria.

History is a story, and what a certain society regards as history (with connotation of factual) is just a construct -usually coming from the ones holding power and information- to essentially make propaganda. Due to this, which things are or aren't "classics", "timeless" or "historic truths" is something that itself varies with time.
Let me bring up the example of the Laocoön:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laoco%C3%B6n_and_His_Sons

For a thousand years and more, there was one way of analysing this sculpture and its restorations that relied on the prominent diagonal that crossed it. It was a fact that there was a clear diagonal in this piece, there was no way of not seeing it, and no way that the artist didn't intend to do that. Countless of essays and reviews were made about not only this piece, but the whole hellenistic period of Greek art, using the diagonal as a symbol and base for it.

Well, turns out that diagonal didn't exist in the original Greek piece, as the arm wasn't extended pointing to the sky but bent in the opposite direction, destroying the whole 'diagonal' interpretation.

I hope this post makes itself clear as to what I mean when I say that the "test of time" is meaningless.

Regarding what is or isn't a masterpiece, it's a moot discussion. Nobody who thinks fiction (or even any would-be truth or fact) can be defined and criticised somewhat objectively will ever agree with someone that leaves everything to subjectivity. It's a fundamental difference in ideology.

aohige · 2012-07-18, 01:04

Er, you're thinking too hard.

The only true "objectivity" is accomplished by masses.
Any argument you have of any criteria is otherwise subjective to one's opinions.

When something passes through test of time, the more base of input there is.
(due to the fact its critique has passed several generations = larger base)

That's all.
It's just about numbers.

Warm Mist · 2012-07-18, 06:37

"Base of input" doesn't stack.

When time passes, things that were widely regarded as bad can come to be widely regarded as good, and vice versa. Same applies to popularity. And the relevant part is that whether things were regarded as good or bad, popular or obscure during a given time, follows the same process.

Kaijo · 2012-07-18, 07:19

Planet of the Apes (original). Was a classic and a very good movie when it came out. Surprising twist ending. Masses REALLY liked it. If a lot of people liking something made it a masterpiece, then it would be considered one now. It's not. At best, it is considered a classic, but it's flaws are now apparent and is seen as silly in retrospect.

In other words, time changed everyone's opinion.

In contrast, The Godfather is still seen as a masterpiece even today. A masterpiece can stand the test of time.

MartianMage · 2012-07-18, 07:39

...

Seriously what is the point of arguing if you are just going to twist words?

First you guys argue that masterpieces are essentially a classic now you're saying a classic is not a masterpiece and then push the very definition of a classic as masterpiece.

To be fair it's not that I disagree that classics aren't necessarily a masterpiece(my main argument to begin with is that classics and masterpieces are 2 different things) but this kind of flip flopping in an argument...

Kaijo · 2012-07-18, 08:28

I fail to see any flipflopping. "Classic" and "Masterpiece" are two different words with, wait for it... different definitions! Just like Red and Blue are different colors. Something can be both a classic and a masterpiece, or it can be just one of them.

Dr. Casey · 2012-07-18, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shergal

Regarding what is or isn't a masterpiece, it's a moot discussion. Nobody who thinks fiction (or even any would-be truth or fact) can be defined and criticised somewhat objectively will ever agree with someone that leaves everything to subjectivity. It's a fundamental difference in ideology.

I think that some elements of writing can be compared with some degree of objectivity, but ultimately I think a story's quality is much, much more subjective than it's anything else.

(also I don't really care what stories people in general consider masterpieces because imo people that aren't me tend to have bad opinions)

MartianMage · 2012-07-18, 09:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I fail to see any flipflopping. "Classic" and "Masterpiece" are two different words with, wait for it... different definitions! Just like Red and Blue are different colors. Something can be both a classic and a masterpiece, or it can be just one of them.

To be fair it was tinyreadleaf who said it but after mentioning you for his argument and with no corrections on your follow up post I'm pretty much inclined to believe you do agree with him.

As for your point... I'll just say this again... it is pointless to even continue because you are subscribing to your very own definition of the word.

***CrowKenobi*** · 2012-07-18, 10:56

Perhaps the current discussion is all that can be wrung out of the thread title as is, and since the original poster (Soliloquy) agrees, I'll close this thread. If anyone else feels that the discussion can be extended, please create another thread for that discussion (I'd suggest the title of 'Which anime do you consider to be a "masterpiece?"').

2012-07-18, 01:04	Link #82
aohige ( ಠ_ಠ) Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep	Er, you're thinking too hard. The only true "objectivity" is accomplished by masses. Any argument you have of any criteria is otherwise subjective to one's opinions. When something passes through test of time, the more base of input there is. (due to the fact its critique has passed several generations = larger base) That's all. It's just about numbers. __________________

2012-07-18, 07:39	Link #85
MartianMage Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2006	... Seriously what is the point of arguing if you are just going to twist words? First you guys argue that masterpieces are essentially a classic now you're saying a classic is not a masterpiece and then push the very definition of a classic as masterpiece. To be fair it's not that I disagree that classics aren't necessarily a masterpiece(my main argument to begin with is that classics and masterpieces are 2 different things) but this kind of flip flopping in an argument... __________________ Homura: Die monster! You don't belong in this world! Kyubey: It was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh. I was called here by humans who wish to pay me tribute. Homura: Tribute? You steal girls' souls, and make them your slaves! Kyubey: Perhaps the same could be said of all religions. Homura: Your words are as empty as your soul! Lolis ill-needs a savior such as you! Kyubey: What is a loli? A miserable little pile of moe! But enough talk...have at you!

2012-07-18, 10:56	Link #89
*CrowKenobi* One PUNCH! Administrator Join Date: Dec 2005	Perhaps the current discussion is all that can be wrung out of the thread title as is, and since the original poster (Soliloquy) agrees, I'll close this thread. If anyone else feels that the discussion can be extended, please create another thread for that discussion (I'd suggest the title of 'Which anime do you consider to be a "masterpiece?"'). Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2012-07-18 at 11:22.

2012-07-18, 00:24	Link #81
Warm Mist Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	Sorry to break this down to everyone, but there is nothing more devoid of meaning as the "test of time" criteria. History is a story, and what a certain society regards as history (with connotation of factual) is just a construct -usually coming from the ones holding power and information- to essentially make propaganda. Due to this, which things are or aren't "classics", "timeless" or "historic truths" is something that itself varies with time. Let me bring up the example of the Laocoön: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laoco%C3%B6n_and_His_Sons For a thousand years and more, there was one way of analysing this sculpture and its restorations that relied on the prominent diagonal that crossed it. It was a fact that there was a clear diagonal in this piece, there was no way of not seeing it, and no way that the artist didn't intend to do that. Countless of essays and reviews were made about not only this piece, but the whole hellenistic period of Greek art, using the diagonal as a symbol and base for it. Well, turns out that diagonal didn't exist in the original Greek piece, as the arm wasn't extended pointing to the sky but bent in the opposite direction, destroying the whole 'diagonal' interpretation. I hope this post makes itself clear as to what I mean when I say that the "test of time" is meaningless. Regarding what is or isn't a masterpiece, it's a moot discussion. Nobody who thinks fiction (or even any would-be truth or fact) can be defined and criticised somewhat objectively will ever agree with someone that leaves everything to subjectivity. It's a fundamental difference in ideology.

2012-07-18, 06:37	Link #83
Warm Mist Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	"Base of input" doesn't stack. When time passes, things that were widely regarded as bad can come to be widely regarded as good, and vice versa. Same applies to popularity. And the relevant part is that whether things were regarded as good or bad, popular or obscure during a given time, follows the same process.

2012-07-18, 07:19	Link #84
Kaijo Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.	Planet of the Apes (original). Was a classic and a very good movie when it came out. Surprising twist ending. Masses REALLY liked it. If a lot of people liking something made it a masterpiece, then it would be considered one now. It's not. At best, it is considered a classic, but it's flaws are now apparent and is seen as silly in retrospect. In other words, time changed everyone's opinion. In contrast, The Godfather is still seen as a masterpiece even today. A masterpiece can stand the test of time.

2012-07-18, 08:28	Link #86
Kaijo Banned Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Somewhere over the rainbow, in a house dropped on an ugly, old woman.	I fail to see any flipflopping. "Classic" and "Masterpiece" are two different words with, wait for it... different definitions! Just like Red and Blue are different colors. Something can be both a classic and a masterpiece, or it can be just one of them.