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Eratas123 · 2011-11-21, 17:02

@ leukrota - I didn't know that, thanks for clearing that up! So people like Gunha are the templates used for both Magicans and Espers then.

Ilidsor · 2011-11-21, 18:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by leukrota

Remember how the evolution goes. First, there where gemstones with natural powers. Then people jealous of their powers tried to recreate them and discovered magic. Then Aleister, with Aiwass' help, found a way to make artificial espers, using a different approach in recreating the gemstone powers...

So being the original inspiration for the two forces, gemstones can probably be considered in the middle of them, instead to belonging to either side. At least, that's the impression I have about them... I could be wrong, but there's just not enough info at the moment to make sure of it.

Don't saints come in there somewhere?

I thought it was at the beginning there were saints and gemstones, and magicians copied the saints way to get power and then centuries later science found a way to create espers to do what gemstones do. Or did I understand that wrong?

Ashaman · 2011-11-21, 18:39

The idea of Saints is less than 2000 years old; magic is most likely an older concept than that.

And a gemstone is an Esper. Someone with a special power that comes from themselves

Magic is a different thing entirely - someone who calls on anothers powers, or otherwise invokes abilities.

Gemstone is not some middle ground. More like it is a template for AC Espers and a goal to be overcome for Magicains.

I'm sure there is some trick to Gunha's powers; some common unifying ability that explains his weird skill-set. We just don't know what it is.

Eratas123 · 2011-11-21, 18:50

Espers are people who get powers from the inside while Magicians are people wjo get skills through external means like books. Am I gettimg this right?

So Ironically:

Espers - Natural powers from within.

Magicians - Learned powers from external sources.

Seems kind of opposite since Science usually equates more to learning while Magic usually leans more on "being born with powers". They seem to be the opposite in the Raildex verse.

Daft · 2011-11-21, 18:53

It's guts. He can anything he darn pleases as long as he thinks it would be cool enough to concentrate on and explain with his infallible logic.

Flere821 · 2011-11-21, 19:17

Do note however magic is first used to "let people without talent do things people with talent can do" (or something like that from the First Volume). Talent, not esper or gemstone specifically. Saints or ability-users probably didn't matter, just that there was inequality and magic was one way in a attempt to bring everything back to a even field.

leukrota · 2011-11-21, 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilidsor

Don't saints come in there somewhere?

I thought it was at the beginning there were saints and gemstones, and magicians copied the saints way to get power and then centuries later science found a way to create espers to do what gemstones do. Or did I understand that wrong?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flere821

Do note however magic is first used to "let people without talent do things people with talent can do" (or something like that from the First Volume). Talent, not esper or gemstone specifically. Saints or ability-users probably didn't matter, just that there was inequality and magic was one way in a attempt to bring everything back to a even field.

Here's the precise quote (from the translation that is):

Quote:

"Magic isn't something that... espers, 'those with talent', can use... Because 'those without talent' wanted to be able to do the same things as 'those with talent', they gave birth to a ceremony and practice called... magic."

So I do think Index is referring to Gemstones...

Mind you, I said that Gemstones shouldn't be grouped together with artificial Espers because in a similar way to magic, the Academy City's 'curriculum' was also made to give 'those without talent' an ability... I bet Gemstones aren't compatible with that 'curriculum'.

But yeah, perhaps saying Gemstones are in the middle was stretching it a bit too much, since conceptually they should be a lot more similar to AC Espers, like Ashaman just pointed.

We still need a lot more info on them though. I think it's mentioned somewhere that Gemstones have AIM, but are they also bound to a single ability? or can they have multiple? that single matter can make a huge difference... But so far we have only seen a single Gemstone in action and his ability is literally incomprehensible XD.

About the Saints... I don't remember any explanation concerning where do they fit in the big picture... That could be an interesting topic for speculation (in the speculation thread, that is.)

Flere821 · 2011-11-21, 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by leukrota

We still need a lot more info on them though. I think it's mentioned somewhere that Gemstones have AIM, but are they also bound to a single ability? or can they have multiple? that single matter can make a huge difference... But so far we have only seen a single Gemstone in action and his ability is literally incomprehensible XD.

http://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/in...ume2_Chapter10

Not much, but apparently we have a Telekinesis user that's a gemstone...?

leukrota · 2011-11-21, 19:39

^ Oh right, I forgot about that one.

EDIT: I'm still not sure what that ability was though... was it a powerful attack that made a great noise... or was it a sonic attack?

Ashaman · 2011-11-21, 19:52

You guys are making Himegami cry.

leukrota · 2011-11-21, 19:57

^ I was talking about Gemstones in action, and we haven't seen Himegami's ability... As the vampires there seem as legendary as in real life

~~I_am_Kami~~ · 2011-11-21, 20:03

The vampires have been killed by her though

Eratas123 · 2011-11-21, 20:09

Himegami's blood seems to be poisonous but attracts vampires to feed on her. Basically, she's poison laced honey.

Chaos2Frozen · 2011-11-21, 20:19

[People with Talent] are people born with special abilities, this could include a wide variety of individuals not limited to Saints, or even the Valkyries and Elves.

[Gemstone] however, is a labeling from Science side for those with powers that occurred naturally and sometimes without scientific logic.

I'm not suprised if at some point those two terminology are in fact referring to the same thing.

Miraluka · 2011-11-21, 21:09

Same as above, before Saints there were Valkyries whos myth is far older.

Chaos2Frozen · 2011-11-21, 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eratas123

Himegami's blood seems to be poisonous but attracts vampires to feed on her. Basically, she's poison laced honey.

All she needs is a sword.

Eratas123 · 2011-11-21, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

All she needs is a sword.

Himegami, the vampire slayer

Trying to get noticed by day and fighting vampires by night. Coming soon in theatres near you.

Side note - Actually sounds like a crack fic plot

MrTerrorist · 2011-11-22, 02:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

All she needs is a sword.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eratas123

Himegami, the vampire slayer

Trying to get noticed by day and fighting vampires by night. Coming soon in theatres near you.

Side note - Actually sounds like a crack fic plot

Do it!

Somebody make that fic happen! I'm throwing my money at you!!!

djmaca · 2011-11-22, 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eratas123

Himegami, the vampire slayer

Trying to get noticed by day and fighting vampires by night. Coming soon in theatres near you.

Side note - Actually sounds like a crack fic plot

She'd need a hell lot of training: Last time she was attacked she was turned into a bloody mess.

Quote:

Espers are people who get powers from the inside while Magicians are people wjo get skills through external means like books. Am I gettimg this right?

So Ironically:

Espers - Natural powers from within.

Magicians - Learned powers from external sources.

Seems kind of opposite since Science usually equates more to learning while Magic usually leans more on "being born with powers". They seem to be the opposite in the Raildex verse.

Magicians value those "being born with power" as in "being born with a natural talent for magic", while "Science usually equates more to learning..." meaning "learning how to control your esper powers effectively".

Quote:

and we haven't seen Himegami's ability...

There was a flashback in the anime though.

judasmartel · 2011-11-22, 04:09

Himegami's ability is known as "Deep Blood". Due to this, her blood is irresistible for vampires but it kills any vampire who drinks it.

In addition, with her Deep Blood she can pinpoint the blood flow of any person with perfect accuracy. This makes her a valuable Esper Medic for the Kamijou faction. The Magic Medics of the Kamijou Faction are the Amakusas, most notably Itsuwa.

2011-11-21, 17:02	Link #14821
Eratas123 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	@ leukrota - I didn't know that, thanks for clearing that up! So people like Gunha are the templates used for both Magicans and Espers then. __________________

2011-11-21, 18:39	Link #14823
Ashaman Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Age: 34	The idea of Saints is less than 2000 years old; magic is most likely an older concept than that. And a gemstone is an Esper. Someone with a special power that comes from themselves Magic is a different thing entirely - someone who calls on anothers powers, or otherwise invokes abilities. Gemstone is not some middle ground. More like it is a template for AC Espers and a goal to be overcome for Magicains. I'm sure there is some trick to Gunha's powers; some common unifying ability that explains his weird skill-set. We just don't know what it is. __________________

2011-11-21, 18:50	Link #14824
Eratas123 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	Espers are people who get powers from the inside while Magicians are people wjo get skills through external means like books. Am I gettimg this right? So Ironically: Espers - Natural powers from within. Magicians - Learned powers from external sources. Seems kind of opposite since Science usually equates more to learning while Magic usually leans more on "being born with powers". They seem to be the opposite in the Raildex verse. __________________

2011-11-21, 19:39	Link #14829
leukrota Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011	^ Oh right, I forgot about that one. EDIT: I'm still not sure what that ability was though... was it a powerful attack that made a great noise... or was it a sonic attack? Last edited by leukrota; 2011-11-21 at 19:50.

2011-11-21, 19:52	Link #14830
Ashaman Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Age: 34	You guys are making Himegami cry. __________________

2011-11-21, 18:53	Link #14825
Daft Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Age: 33	It's guts. He can anything he darn pleases as long as he thinks it would be cool enough to concentrate on and explain with his infallible logic.

2011-11-21, 19:17	Link #14826
Flere821 Lurker Join Date: Aug 2010	Do note however magic is first used to "let people without talent do things people with talent can do" (or something like that from the First Volume). Talent, not esper or gemstone specifically. Saints or ability-users probably didn't matter, just that there was inequality and magic was one way in a attempt to bring everything back to a even field.

2011-11-21, 19:57	Link #14831
leukrota Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011	^ I was talking about Gemstones in action, and we haven't seen Himegami's ability... As the vampires there seem as legendary as in real life

2011-11-21, 20:03	Link #14832
~~I_am_Kami~~ Disabled By Request Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The 305 Age: 30	The vampires have been killed by her though

2011-11-21, 20:09	Link #14833
Eratas123 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011	Himegami's blood seems to be poisonous but attracts vampires to feed on her. Basically, she's poison laced honey. __________________

2011-11-21, 20:19	Link #14834
Chaos2Frozen We're Back Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Redgrave City Age: 35	[People with Talent] are people born with special abilities, this could include a wide variety of individuals not limited to Saints, or even the Valkyries and Elves. [Gemstone] however, is a labeling from Science side for those with powers that occurred naturally and sometimes without scientific logic. I'm not suprised if at some point those two terminology are in fact referring to the same thing. __________________ Devil Trigger , Subhuman , Crimson Cloud , Mad Qualia

2011-11-21, 21:09	Link #14835
Miraluka Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Age: 34	Same as above, before Saints there were Valkyries whos myth is far older.

2011-11-22, 04:09	Link #14840
judasmartel Senior Member Author Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cainta, Rizal, Philippines	Himegami's ability is known as "Deep Blood". Due to this, her blood is irresistible for vampires but it kills any vampire who drinks it. In addition, with her Deep Blood she can pinpoint the blood flow of any person with perfect accuracy. This makes her a valuable Esper Medic for the Kamijou faction. The Magic Medics of the Kamijou Faction are the Amakusas, most notably Itsuwa.