[Manga] Claymore Chapter 77 Discussion

[Zsych]

I expect that its a temporary version of the awakening Clare pulled off in Pieta. 100% release for 0.1 seconds.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Zsych

I expect that its a temporary version of the awakening Clare pulled off in Pieta. 100% release for 0.1 seconds.

I don't think so. What made the Slayers 4 so scary after the time skip is that they acquired their new skills without using Yoki. That's in line with them hiding from the MIB in general. So, I believe that Miria somehow got her physical strength up so that she could move at an illusion-generating speed.

[Zsych]

I meant Miria's original phantom images. Amazing that Clare's supposedly inferior body can keep up with her in a fight nowadays, although its being chalked up to Irene's arm.

[yezhanquan]

I think in Clare's case, it's her training which helped her. She only began to shine after she took cues from Irene and Jean.

As I mentioned earlier, I do believe that every Claymore can be powerful, but with the right form of training.

[Fenrir_valindri]

My thoughts have already been stated over Clare's power, but let me add onto that.

Due to Clare's Yoma flesh becoming more compatible with her Partial-Awakenings, she had more room to grow, as did all the Fab 4.

The reason we see such a power jump with Clare is because of her initial weakness and incompatibility.

Simply put, Miria and the others were already more compatible (as evident by their much higher ranks), so their Partial-Awakenings did not help them as much as Clare's.

Over the Years of training in the North, they were all able to more fully explore their improved compatibility, thus the reason we see such powerful Yoki-less techniques. They developed the potential of their Yoma flesh like a muscle through harsh training and rigid conditions, barring themselves from Yoki as a crutch.

There is more to it, but I need to take a shower so I'll leave it here.

[yezhanquan]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

My thoughts have already been stated over Clare's power, but let me add onto that.

Due to Clare's Yoma flesh becoming more compatible with her Partial-Awakenings, she had more room to grow, as did all the Fab 4.

The reason we see such a power jump with Clare is because of her initial weakness and incompatibility.

Simply put, Miria and the others were already more compatible (as evident by their much higher ranks_, so their Partial-Awakenings did not help them as much as Clare's.

Over the Years of training in the North, they were all able to more fully explore their improved compatibility, thus the reason we see such powerful Yoki-less techniques. They developed the potential of their Yoma flesh like a muscle through harsh training and rigid conditions, barring themselves from Yoki as a crutch.

There is more to it, but I need to take a shower so I'll leave it here.

Liked the way you compared Yoki to a crutch for the majority of the Claymores. That's exactly what I had in mind, and it's a crutch that bites back.

No doubt that the partial awakenings helped those who remained human after the ordeal (except possibly Jean). I'll say that the girls didn't realise the literal meaning of the statement that their human half controls their yoma half. I think it's not just a matter of control, but a matter of mastering. They think that the two halves must be anti one another. What if the two halves are actually dependent on each other? By learning how to truly use Yoki, it may be that the yoki flow is no longer manifested outwardly. Instead, it becomes a latent/passive force to be tapped.

[Fenrir_valindri]

I think so too, the key is not fighting your Yoma flesh, but mastering it, and the 7 Ghosts seem to have scratched the surface of this theory, having the ability to perform techniques that would normally require an external use of Yoki, rather then an internal force of their enhanced strength.

This would help us understand why so many have misjudged Clare's strength, her Yoki is rather pitiful most of the time, but her compatibility surges when she goes over her limit, but her Yoma Muscle is becoming more and more impressive, especially with the introduction of Irene's arm, which was far more developed then any of her own parts.

As noted by Priscilla near the end of the Battle for Pieta, Clare's Yoki had become quite significant after her 4 limbed Awakening, even after returning to her original form, indicating that her partial awakening had improved her compatibility to put her near Miria's league.

[yezhanquan]

Well, I don't think all 7 have gotten it. Yuma still doesn't have confidence in herself, which to me screams the fact that she hasn't found the door, so to speak. The Slayers 4 are already walking down the corridor to the treasure room.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Hehe, edited my post above with some more info.

As for Yuma, it could just be comparative confidence, unlike Clare, Yuma most likely has not Partially-awakened, thus her compatibility remains low.

It is quite possible that Yuma is much stronger then she believes, but is comparatively weak when compared to the more compatible members of the 7 Ghosts.

[Lights of Euphoria]

Yuma's self-confidence definitely is a problem and above all, a great obstacle.
She doesn't seem like one of the problem children the MiB were speaking off (Helen, Clare, Miria...). It seems to me that she did what she was told, as she was probably to low-moralled to do try and do anything else...

[Fenrir_valindri]

I wouldn't be so quick to judge, you have to remember a vast majority of Claymores just "do what they are told."

Out of the 7 Ghosts only Miria and Clare were real problem children, Helen caused some problems with clients, and Deneve clashed with other warriors, but they both followed orders.

There is nothing to indicate that Cynthia/Tabitha/Yuma were anymore disloyal to the Org until the War in the North, where everyone agreed to Miria's plan, including Yuma.

I believe Yuma knows she is the weakest, even below # 47 (who is equal to #6), but she wants to be useful to the people who ultimately saved her life, and have been her friends for the past 7 years, thats not a bond that is easily broken.

[Lights of Euphoria]

Good point there.

[Mikke]

Inner strength? Compatability? Surely spending enough time isolated, training on your own and scraping every drop of energy out of your every breath with your willpower will have you making significant progress, yes.. Thus every claymore as above said is capable of becoming better. BUT, with comparison to herself alone..

Can you honestly say that if they keep their yoki supressed that their basic skills and potentials will be equal? hell no! their bodys are still those of yoma and what makes those bodies stronger than a humans is the use of yoki. perhaps releasing it in such small amounts and balancing the process in such a way that plain physical strength and speed are increased but the body doesn't emit any yoki. It must be something like that cuz there's no way Yuma will ever be on Miria's level for example. Not in terms of strength, speed, technique... anyway at all. Not a problem of self confidence but of latent potential..

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by Mikke

Inner strength? Compatability? Surely spending enough time isolated, training on your own and scraping every drop of energy out of your every breath with your willpower will have you making significant progress, yes.. Thus every claymore as above said is capable of becoming better. BUT, with comparison to herself alone..

Can you honestly say that even if they keep their yoki supressed that their basic skills and potentials will be equal? hell no! their bodys are still those of yoma and what makes those bodies stronger than a humans is the use of yoki. perhaps releasing it in such small amounts and balancing the process in such a way that plain physical strength and speed are increased but the body doesn't emit any yoki. It must be something like that cuz there's no way Yuma will ever be on Miria's level for example. Not in terms of strength, speed, technique... anyway at all.

Obviously, because Yuma is not a partially awakened, and has poor compatibility as shown by her low number, she can only get so strong, and even then she is still the weakest of the bunch.

I think you misunderstood something along the way, Miria obviously has the highest compatibility of the bunch, along with Clare now (who has gone over her limit how many times now? 6-7?) Thus the reason they are both so much stronger then the others, Helen and Deneve are next, with Cynthia trailing behind.

That is why the Fab 4 are stronger, and will remain stronger, then the other 3, they are partially awakened AND most of them had high compatibility in the first place.

Compatibility also indicates their non-yoki strength, as the Yoma flesh itself is what we are talking about.

Even when not using Yoki, on the first AB hunt Miria downright pwned Clare, so it is obvious Claymores are not equal even when not counting Yoki, but that is all due to compatability.

[chibamonster]

Compatibility has just been said so many times I don't even know what it means anymore . It seems like a bit vague to me as a term for power measurement but I might just be misunderstanding something. What would make a Claymore compatible with their youki? Is it their will power, desire, genetics, chance, the process used in hybridization, how careful the MiB's were, their emotions at the time of hybridization (like being offensive defensive), their training, or any number of their factors?

It does seem that even cloaked claymores have some youki present in their system because youki is what keeps a claymore's eyes silver. When they go on suppressants their eyes change back to their original color. But at least claymore is consistent with it's world rules, whatever the cause may be

[mycen]

Anyways where did this "Yuma will be a traitor" speculation come from? spoilers or some previous thread's speculation?

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by chibamonster

Compatibility has just been said so many times I don't even know what it means anymore . It seems like a bit vague to me as a term for power measurement but I might just be misunderstanding something. What would make a Claymore compatible with their youki? Is it their will power, desire, genetics, chance, the process used in hybridization, how careful the MiB's were, their emotions at the time of hybridization (like being offensive defensive), their training, or any number of their factors?

I mean compatibility as genetics, after all the entire reason infusing someone with Yoma flesh makes them so strong is due to the combination of human/Yoma flesh.

So some people simply have bodies that are more willing to merge with Yoma DNA, but half-awakening makes the body more and more compatible with the Yoma Flesh, as they almost turned into a Yoma themselves.

It does seem that even cloaked claymores have some youki present in their system because youki is what keeps a claymore's eyes silver. When they go on suppressants their eyes change back to their original color. But at least claymore is consistent with it's world rules, whatever the cause may be

The pills are a form of forced suppression, so it semi-reverts the hybridization process, they are still just as fast/strong as before but they can't use Yoki, or sense it for that matter, it is a unnatural process, and probably not as effective as natural suppression.

The natural suppression of the 7 ghosts and Raphaela is different because it takes time and doesn't cut off their ability to sense Yoki or use it, it naturally lowers the "body heat" that Yoki gives off to Yoki sensing.

Silver eyes comes from the Yoma flesh, not the Yoki itself, as does the blond hair.

---------

As for Yuma being a traitor, I believe it is from the previous chapter thread. I am really not sure how people got that into their heads, I really do not see it happening.

[Mikke]

Clare is a down right empiricist.... All the times that she ran blindly to her death, miraculously having her life saved by others parallel to the times she went, no FLEW over her limits recklessly like that render her progress so blunt and random that it makes you think; Either there is some serious initial, calculative or intuitive genius in her that helps her not only read yoki but also destiny itself, or.... you could just look at everything she does as bumping into a wall with all she has and hope it cracks before her skull does. lol

[Fenrir_valindri]

Which is exactly why I wonder where people got the idea that Clare is more "stable" then other hybrids. She flies off the handle more then any character in this series, she definitely has Priscilla and Miata beat in that department, she is just lucky that she has so many friends to protect her humanity, unlike the forementioned two.

Although there is still hope for Miata.

[Claymore_Obsessed]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

I mean compatibility as genetics, after all the entire reason infusing someone with Yoma flesh makes them so strong is due to the combination of human/Yoma flesh.

So some people simply have bodies that are more willing to merge with Yoma DNA, but half-awakening makes the body more and more compatible with the Yoma Flesh, as they almost turned into a Yoma themselves.

I see your point, but what if yoma flesh of great "quality" (for lack of a better word ) is infused to a human warrior with great stats like skill, speed, stamina etc but with low compatibility?
both the human and the yoma parts are good, but because of the low compatibility the resulting Claymore would be a low rank?
or the excellent yoma and human traits would make a powerful Claymore (maybe with problems, like Miata) ?

As for Yuma being a traitor, I believe it is from the previous chapter thread. I am really not sure how people got that into their heads, I really do not see it happening.

Yes it was a speculation from previous thread...