2012-06-04, 13:30 | Link #81 |
Seishu's Ace
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Kobe, Japan
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I really think it all comes down to ego. She's probably an egotistical person by nature (just a guess based on her recent behavior) and when the industry began to kowtow shamelessly to her every whim, the ego spun out of control to the point where now, first and foremost, everything she writes is about her. The integrity of the material is sloppy seconds to that.
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2012-06-05, 03:01 | Link #82 | |||||
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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Because if so, in light of the parallels people have drama between HSI and J and K drama in the past, I think genre convention is a much more satisfying explanation for Okada's choices here than having man issues. Particularly since there's some evidence that her taste in anime men runs towards characters like Shrade from Aquarion Evol. And I'm pretty sure I've run into buffoonish characters in at least a couple J dramas I've seen. Quote:
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I don't tend to dispute it when people call Okada a troll writer, but that's because she of the fact many of her shows are somewhat tongue in cheek and she has a tendency to yank shipper's chains... I'm not thinking of any true dickery on her part, Kadokawa style or otherwise. Quote:
Nor do I think Nagai is the only person who can rein her in. If anything, he had the most to lose by losing her since "by the creators of Toradora" was an important part of AnoHana's appeal. Hanasaku Iroha? Most of the crazy episodes there weren't that far out and it generally felt like the staff misjudged whether they could make it all fit nicely. Fractale? Yamakan says that some of the more otaku elements were her ideas, but frankly, whenever Yamakan tried to act repentant about having been a "moetard", my bullshit gauge starts spinning. I have trouble seeing him putting up much resistance. Otome Youkai Zakuro? Having read some bits of Hoshino Lily's manga I feel comfortable saying Okada's version has less "lulz" than the original. It even cuts an early chapter where Zakuro makes Kei dress as a girl.
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2012-06-05, 03:54 | Link #83 | |||
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Putting BRS aside, since that made me lose my vocal chords due to the level of "wtf/retardness" and many brain cells being lost and whether in both BRS and HSI it was intentional or not in the way episode 3 panned out like it did, it doesn't repute the fact that it caused a drastic change in tone for HSI. Prior to the episode 3 debacle, it seemed like a perfectly good legitimate coming of age story with a irresponsible mother sending her daughter away to a rather old-school strict "evil" grandmother (not an uncommon plot device for J/K dramas either). However, instead of pursuing that route, episode 3 gave us a lolwut episode, which was completely different to the first two. The episodes after 3, were largely "fluff" (but enjoyable and better than average fluff), until episode 7 whereby we got another lolwut episode (The episode that made 0utf0xzer0 a Tomoe fanboy ). It wasn't until episode 9 it started to be revert back to to its episode 1 and 2 style. Quote:
For romantic comedies, there is indeed a lot of "buffooning" around, but it tends to be split between both genders. Both males and females are portrayed to be idiots indiscriminately . But since the K-drama audience are overwhelmingly female, they males to be "dorky", "fabulous" and/or often times "dickheads" whilst the female tends to be either "weak-willed" or "tsundere" - pretty much borrows a lot from shojo manga romcom tropes. For melodramas... well, imagine Ano Hana, replace high school characters with characters in their late 10s or early 20s (sometimes even 30s), remove Menma since she is more or less an "otaku-bait" character and double the amount of scenes where someone is crying on screen and introduce a hospital premise, someone getting hit by a car, and/or someone being diagnosed with a terminal illness. Evil stepmothers are a bonus trope too. But in general, no "buffooning" here. Instead maximize the melodrama cheese. Example here! Yes, I'm generalizing here, so don't take me 100% seriously . I wouldn't be surprised at the fact that Okada gets a lot of her drama writing inspiration comes from Asian TV drama, because they sometimes seem very similar in approach. It's frustrating yeh, but I guess it's just personal preference for me in that I rather see TV tropes be used cross-medium than common tropes in the current anime medium be used again. Lesser of the two evils I'd say. Here's a fun fact. Both True Tears and Anohana (written by Okada) very shortly after their respective Bluray/DVD releases in Japan, was licensed in Korea WITH Korean dubs on them, whilst it took years before the English version of a sub-only version of True Tears to come out on Sentai whilst Ano Hana is still yet to be licensed in English. Coincedence? I'd say no, considering Koreans and their love for drama and anime is a pretty popular "underground" entertainment medium over there, whilst manga (and manwha) is pretty much mainstream. Quote:
Anyways, one thing is for sure for Okada as of late. Her crazy, lulsy, wtf series appear to be the norm these days, when it wasn't the case even about a year or so ago. That's why I personally think she's on "troll/egoflated" mode as of late. Her last "legit good" series that was intended to be "legit good" was Ano Hana, which I already had a few problems with. Hanasaku Iroha came out pretty solid, but I have a feeling Okada intended that to be more "crazy" if it wasn't for some editing by Ando. Last edited by Pocari_Sweat; 2012-06-05 at 23:08. Reason: Added youtube example. |
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2012-06-05, 08:39 | Link #84 | |
Me, An Intellectual
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: UK
Age: 33
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2012-06-05, 08:45 | Link #85 | |
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As for Japan, I have a feeling it might be the same. Writers in general don't get hardly any attention. I mean I don't see Yoshino hate anywhere near as much on other English forums as much as I do here, though there is some on MAL. The only two writers I think that get talked about a lot if I had to pick will be NishioIsin (since Monogatari is massive over there) and Gen Orobuchi (for Madoka and Fate Zero). And also from my memory, Japanese fans care a heck a lot more about VAs than we English fans do based off experience. |
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2012-06-05, 10:45 | Link #86 | ||
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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And I'm going to reiterate my point on her recent works as well. Look at the show concepts. How many of them were you honestly expecting to be legit good rather than "lulz"? The problem here is at the concept level, not the script level. Quote:
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2012-06-05, 21:39 | Link #87 | ||
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2012-06-05, 22:09 | Link #88 |
Last Engage
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Florida
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What makes one form of goodness any more "legitimate" than another? If a series is meant to be a comedy and succeeds as a comedy, that has just as any right to be called good as a similar series in genre or sci-fi or whatever else. For making so many successful comedies, I respect Seiji Kishi even more. One of my all time favorite directors is Keiichiro Kawaguchi, and that man loves his comedy something fierce.
But that's sort of a tangent from this topic. On the subject of Okada. I haven't seen all of her series. My viewing of AKB0048 is almost completely divorced from the fact that she's writing it, and I like the weird elements. That's the kind of stuff I got into anime for. The kind of stuff that shows the medium at its most fantastical, the potential of what animation can portray. I distinctly remember being one of the people who praised episode 3 of HanaIro. The moment the series showed it wasn't going to be completely serious, I gained more respect for it, and don't see a problem with her style of comedy. The comedy parts were the parts I paid more attention to. For me, it was a feature, not a bug. If I'm coming off as somewhat biased towards comedy... yes. Comedy is harder to pull off than drama, I'd argue, and has just as good, if not better, results when it's pulled off. My problem is less with her and more with some of the responses I'm seeing. I don't know how many male writers have been called to attention, but some of the metaphors I'm seeing (such as comparing her writing to torture) are a little unnerving. I don't know if they'd be as intense if Okada was male, so I'm wondering how much of that might be influencing things. Even if people do say they're joking, there seems to be some vitriol beneath some of the comments. That post went off in several directions, but the baseline of it is, I'm not sure where the problems are coming from, and I'd be willing to argue some of the more controversial parts, because those are the parts that keep me hooked to her series in the first place. Oddly, for me, the less serious something is, the more invested I am and the more I have to say on it. |
2012-06-05, 23:05 | Link #89 | ||||||
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Okada's emasculation of men or her crazy ideas of fanservice or asspull plot twists that are literally "trolls" aren't frankly clever comedy or good writing. Sure, they might be funny (heck I do too for some of them like the latest AKB0048 ep where it was an episode about haters), but it's been a constantly repeated pattern of hers as of late and people are starting to get sick of it. Quote:
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2012-06-05, 23:08 | Link #90 | ||||
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On the other hand, she's been able to make lemonade out of lemons. Does anyone know what the True Tears VN is about? Neither do I.
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2012-06-05, 23:15 | Link #91 | |
Last Engage
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Florida
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While I have a vague idea of what "trolling" might be, I'm not very fond of the word, and even several years later, have no idea how to recognize it (not that I have a desire to look for it in the first place). A bit of misdirection is part of what being a writer is about. I fancy myself as a fairly smart person, but I can also say I enjoy some dumb stuff. But just because it's dumb on the exterior doesn't mean there can't be some flashes of brilliance beneath it. I end up watching more of the "otaku"-focused series than some of the more mainstream successes, so my profile hasn't brought me into contact with Okada that often, but from where I stand, I don't really see these complaints as complaints. A writer with a strong voice that can produce good comedy and drama - and I've overall enjoyed what I've seen. |
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2012-06-06, 00:11 | Link #92 | ||
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Anime-style comedy is rather common in anime, as one would expect. If that's what a viewer goes for, there's no shortage of it, really. When people accuse something of being "a dime a dozen", they're not necessarily saying that it's bad, period. They're saying that it's so common-place that the worth of each individual instance of it is reduced significantly. Honestly, that's how I feel about anime-style comedy. But serious drama, especially one involving complex plots, can be hard to find in anime. The fact that True Tears is still considered by some of us as the pinnacle of anime romance drama says a lot, in my opinion. It means that no anime romance drama since then has appealed to us as much as True Tears has, or we'd reference the more recent work instead when we point to what we consider good anime romance drama. True Tears isn't all that recent any more. So it should come as no surprise that some of us, like Demi Soda and myself, would like to see Okada do more works like True Tears. They're harder to find, in my experience, than the more Comedic-based properties that Okada has recently worked on. Quote:
But I think that a comedy show (as in a show with "Comedy" as its primary genre, a show all about the comedy) is easier to write than a Drama show (as in a show with "Drama" as its primary genre, a show all about the drama). A big part of the reason why I write that is I find with comedy shows, as long as half the gags/jokes work, the audience is satisfied. I include myself in this - If an anime Comedy show gets to me to laugh at a half, or even sometimes just a quarter, of its gags/jokes, then I tend to be satisfied. Put another way, half or more of the gags/jokes can fall flat, and the Comedy show can still get away with it as long as the rest is funny. But if half or more of the drama doesn't come off well in a Drama show that can ruin the show completely. Viewers tend to be pickier with Drama, in my experience. I mean, I've seen Code Geass and various Gundam shows picked apart in ways I've never seen a Nichijou or a Ben-To picked apart.
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2012-06-06, 00:34 | Link #93 | |
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For every Usagi Drop (In before someone mentions the ending), we get 100 incest-themed series about a sister wanting to bone her brother (bonus if it's non-blood related) or a parent who is trying to overcome his desire to bone his/her own children. Now from a anime/manga point of view, I'm come to terms with tolerating it even though I despise it. Isn't exactly the case for the rest of the world however... Now I know some incest themed stories are legit good like Kare Kano and heck even True Tears briefly touched on it, but this isn't the case for the vast majority of stories. |
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2012-06-06, 01:00 | Link #94 | |||||
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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I would argue that slapstick comedy is just as easy as to pull off as melodrama. But comedy that uses a brain using deadpan, satire, black, parody etc. is as hard as to pull off subtle genuine drama. Unfortunately in anime, slapstick comedy and melodrama are the most common forms and they are both equally kinda stale to me. There's been some excellent subtle, genuine dramas in anime (e.g. Cross Game, Usagi Drop), and likewise for comedy (Tatami Galaxy comes into mind). However, the satiric and parodic comedies I've seen in anime tend to be in-house otaku references which tend to get very old. Quote:
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http://megatokyo.com/strip/579 Anyway, I would bet that you can't make it as far as into the demo as I did but I couldn't summon the willpower to take a good crack at it.
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2012-06-06, 01:11 | Link #95 | |||
On a mission
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However, This is technically the only anime that involves a four girl band (Ohana, Minko, Nako, ??Yuina??, and Tomoe) that I've actually finished. So that says something in my books. Well, actually there might be more, but since I can't remember, my point still stands. Quote:
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2012-06-06, 01:20 | Link #96 | |
Pretentious moe scholar
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Vancouver, Canada
Age: 37
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...And it's climbed with shocking irregularity regardless, unforunately.
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Go look at the screenshots: http://insani.org/truetears.html
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2012-06-06, 01:25 | Link #97 | ||
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IIRC the draft concept art of Hiromi and Noe were quite... different from what we actually got. Noe actually had long hair and Hiromi had short hair. SO GLAD Hiromi's draft character design wasn't the final product. EDIT: Here was the thread. EDIT2: Noe's image link is broken. This is what prototype Noe looked like. I'm going to say this... prototype Noe looks helluva lot better than the final product. |
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2012-06-06, 01:41 | Link #98 | |||||
On a mission
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She's kinda like Misato from Evangelion, being the older woman that has to deal with gender expectations in Japanese society, facing her age yet being incredibly hawt at the same time. Of course, none of this actually mattered so no wonder why you don't remember, being placed in the typical Okada plot cul-de-sac but Iroha's character designs quite helped for her looks, don't you say? Quote:
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However, I do understand why Noe looks so much different. While Proto-Noe looks very beautiful, it doesn't suit the personality that we know as Noe Isurugi. Noe isn't supposed to be pretty in the conventional sense; no it doesn't mean she looks bad by any means. Her appearance is supposed to reflect her eccentricity. So while having long hair and looking feminine surely is visually appealing, the shorter hair gives her kind of a more tomboyish, playful, and younger look. So, while the old design makes her look far hawter, the design we all know and love (at least half you guys) makes her character stand out as more unique. She's supposed to give up the impression that she's crazy and unpredictable while still being cute and such. And that's also why everyone that's watched the show remember her personality and mannerism. It all goes together.
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Last edited by Archon_Wing; 2012-06-06 at 02:01. |
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2012-06-06, 07:01 | Link #100 |
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Proto-Noe looks great... probably too great. An anime character looking like that would have guys flocking around her, no matter how eccentric she is (and if Noe was super-popular with the guys that really would throw a wrench into True Tear's plot, for reasons that should be obvious to anybody who's watched all of it). Proto-Noe also violently reminds me of another anime character, although I can't place the name for that character.
I also saw short-hair Hiromi... Proto-Noe and short-haired Hiromi would have really changed the feel of True Tears, imo.
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okada, writer |
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