2010-06-05, 14:18 | Link #10821 |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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Crap, I forgot about this Red Truth:
Battler-kun isn't the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games. Well, I guess we have a problem with the "baby from 19 years ago being the culprit in Episode 5" theory, unless the baby is someone other than Battler. Or the baby is just the Illusion of the Witch and Battler has nothing to do with the crimes. |
2010-06-05, 14:36 | Link #10822 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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As an example, there's the scene in the dining room at... lunch, I believe, where Battler is introducing the other adults... almost immediately after he's done so, there's a bit where the narration suddenly starts referring to Battler in third-person. I have no idea what purpose such a thing could serve, but it's there. |
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2010-06-05, 15:49 | Link #10823 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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I meant any time the game jumps to "I" and the speaker is not Battler.
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2010-06-05, 15:52 | Link #10824 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: United Kingdom.
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I have some more ideas, okay.
First of all: Natsuhi loved Shannon, after all... I never told anyone except Shannon that I like Fall. Erika is suit Beatrice Now for the trap: Knox's 5th: Could be anything for all I care, it doesn't matter because every character is a chinaman except Erika and Maria. Now for Episode 3: Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist. Unfortunate if you're looking for the gold. I have doen some other things, but I want to hear what you guys think first, I won't reply for a few days though, sorry if anything has been mentioned before or I end up sounding obnoxious. Coming up: Comments on the red truth Comments on the golden truth Where Shkannon came from Annotations fo the Knox rules And a way for the whole keys mystery to work (hopefully) enjoy the wolf-fight Last edited by Uberzaki; 2010-06-05 at 16:06. Reason: Slight typo |
2010-06-05, 16:33 | Link #10825 |
Senior Member
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semi OT: as for odd relationships between detective and narrator, there's The Blind Barber, by John Dickson Carr. The detective is not present for any of the activities of the mystery. The murder and robberies are all described by the narrator in flashback.
Also, I looked back to see who appears in the various tea parties: Episode 1: Characters ostensibly alive at Oct 5, 11:59 PM: Battler, Maria, Jessica, George Characters in tea party: Battler, Jessica, Maria, George, Shannon, Kanon, Beatrice Characters in ????: Beatrice, Bernkastel (Bern talks to an unidentified person, possibly Battler, possibly the player) ---- Episode 2: Alive: Battler, Kinzo, Genji, Rosa, Maria tea party: Rosa (though her sprite is not shown), Beatrice, goat, Maria, Battler (Krauss, Eva, and Rudolf's sprites are shown, though in flashback BW) ????: Beatrice, Bernkastel, Lambdadelta (Again, Bern and LD talk to an unidentified person.) ---- Episode 3: Alive: Jessica, Eva tea party: Beatrice, Bernkastel, Lambdadelta ????: Eva (though her sprite is shown only as a BW flashback image), Ange, Bernkastel (Rudolf, Kyrie, and Battler are shown as transparent flashback images.) ---- Episode 4: Alive: Battler Tea party: Battler, Beatrice (Battler isn't shown until after Beatrice uses red text wrt. Kanon's body.) (Kanon, Maria, Jessica, and Kinzo are shown in flashback BW. Kinzo is also shown transparent.) ????: Bernkastel, Lambdadelta
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2010-06-05, 18:58 | Link #10826 |
受話器持って魔女・エアトリーチェ
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Oh, the distinction for the "hidden passage" and the Golden Land solution that I personally make is that it technically isn't hidden. I mean, it's not something you would notice at first glance, but if you solve the riddle, then you'll magically see it. A "hidden passage" that is Knox heresy is one that you wouldn't find ever, even if you exhaust all of the clues that you have :/
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2010-06-05, 19:06 | Link #10827 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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2010-06-05, 19:14 | Link #10828 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
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I posted the theory of Kanon=EP1culprit and...
Knox 8th... There isn't any clues, it's just interpretation...(knox 9th) But...is there clues for Kanon=Culprit ? If clues can be found with interpretation X, then there is an infinity of clues, and it's useless. |
2010-06-05, 19:44 | Link #10830 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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the gold of the Golden Land belongs to this child. She had absolutely no need to make you find it for her or to snatch it away herself. Her goal is not to make someone experience fear. And it isn't to have revenge on someone either. I'm not sure about the person named "Beatrice" being the culprit, unless Beatrice is indirectly responsible for what happens. |
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2010-06-05, 19:47 | Link #10831 | |
Tenshi's Defense Squadron
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Fighting against those who oppress the system
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Her mission was for entertainment along with being pushed by Lambda (for the duration of the first 4 eps). Well yea, she can't kill for fun NOW because she's in a friggin coma. After she gave up, that's when she wanted Battler to simply solve the mystery, Or that "this child" means someone else, her name "Beatrice" wasn't used in the phrase. But oh boy if it was, I can come up with another interpretation
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2010-06-05, 20:07 | Link #10832 | |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Regardless of whether the epitaph is solved or not, Beato has nothing to gain. In other words the most basic assumption in episode 1 that Beatrice murdering people as a game has been removed from consideration. The epitaph as her motive has also been removed from consideration. That led me to come up with my theory that she's being controlled by someone else. http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...83581&page=537 The other part of your Blue that Lambda was pushing her would still work kind of. She just has to have a piece she controls on the board. EDIT: Lately I've been looking at Beatrice's story like a tragedy rather than something malicious. If she was the person to write the message Bottles (and most people think she is) than she wants people to find out what really happened. Turn the chessboard over If she really wanted people to find the truth than why would she be the murderer? Even if you do think she's someone disguised as her there is still this contradiction. The murderer would want everything to be covered up. All of the physical evidence was destroyed in the disaster. Other than these stories there is nothing to point to who the murderer is. I don't think Beatrice is the murderer I think she's a tragic heroine who wanted the murderer to be caught. She's doomed to hope forever that the case will be solved. I think her "endless magic" is that emotion of hoping her sadness will end.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-06-05 at 20:28. |
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2010-06-05, 20:26 | Link #10833 | |
Blick Winkel
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Gobbled up by Promathia
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http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=7798 That perhaps one of the characters is being manipulated by another, not necessarily out of "brainwashing," but out of bribery. |
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2010-06-05, 21:40 | Link #10834 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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Quote:
Beato knows everything that happens. This means that she plays a crucial role in the murderer's schemes, since they would also have to factor in all the other schemes that are taking place. But it doesn't make sense for her to be the mastermind. If she was the mastermind, why would she be playing this game to begin with? If she wanted to kill them all, why would she give Battler the chance to defeat her? It doesn't make sense to me anymore for her to be the culprit. If the Meta-Beato is Shannon, then she could easily be caught up in the culprit's schemes, if the culprit is one of the siblings, like Rosa, or George, who's overbearing love for her could force her into such a situation. |
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2010-06-05, 21:48 | Link #10835 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Spoiler for higurashi:
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2010-06-05, 22:03 | Link #10836 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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For example, if the EP1 message bottle was indeed written in the same universe as EP1, there are only 3 times it could have been written: before the murders, during the murders, or after the murders. If there's a bomb that goes off at midnight, "after the murders" is pretty close to impossible, unless there's a culprit who survives the bomb. However, "after the murders" doesn't make sense to me because of the Ange kakera. It's hard enough to find a motive for sending out message bottles with magic stories, but why would you miss the obvious fact that Eva survived if you're the culprit and you've already finished the murders? "During the murders" seems almost as strange. Writing out a story as large as Umineko, even if you skimmed over it really fast, would take a great deal of time. Most characters have a lot of time unaccounted for, so it's probably possible to make this work, but it's presumably the same person in every episode. If it's not the culprit, why wouldn't they mention this massive diary to someone else, and if it is the culprit, how are they even finding the time to do this if they're busy committing at least some of the murders? Furthermore, if the Ange kakera is true, the writer wasn't even writing about what was actually happening at the time, and they wrote at least two conflicting stories. So, looking at it this way, it seems very likely that the stories in the message bottles were written before the murders even started.
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2010-06-05, 22:05 | Link #10837 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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but I think there's still at least a "whydunit" that is not denied by reds. Beatrice is killing everyone out of despair. She has nothing to gain from it, it's not really for vengeance nor for pleasure. She just wants to end it and bring everyone with her. Suicidal people (sadly) often involve others. Either because they feel "less lonely" by leaving the mortal realm in company, or because they do not care, or because they think if it's better for them it must be better for everyone else. and more: Beatrice is doing it because she has no other choice. A threat or who knows what else. Beatrice is doing it because she's been ordered to. Possibly under Kinzo's instructions. This implies a grave case of furniture complex.
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2010-06-05, 23:11 | Link #10838 | ||
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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What I'm thinking of is most likely a combination of all three of the motives you just said, but I think the despair part happens later. EDIT: Now that I think about it. Thunderbook should like this one. You were saying that you were writing something about how you think Umineko is the antithesis of Higurashi right? Well isn't a furniture complex i.e "a complex where you kill people to become human", the opposite of Takano's God complex i.e. "she kills people to be like God so she can be remembered even after death."?
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2010-06-05, 23:34 | Link #10839 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2009
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2010-06-05, 23:41 | Link #10840 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
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As chronotrig said, the entire existence of the endscrolls, message bottles, and Ange's 1998 suggest some kind of Author Theory. The bottles must have been written well in advance of the Rokkenjima Disaster (whether you believe it even HAD any murders prior to the explosion). The only other explanation is that there was a survivor (other than Eva). That leaves us asking two very weird questions:
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