2008-04-11, 21:34 | Link #141 | |
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Are the "ends" themselves worth doing anything for? Lelouch isn't doing what he does because he wants to free Japan or anything like that. He wants to build what he thinks will be a "perfect" world for his sister. It just so happens that it means bringing down an oppressive empire. You could argue that even if he's being rather selfish, it might be worth going along with since you agree with the idea of a free Japan. What if he thought the only way he bring about this perfect world was to be even more oppressive than the Britannians? What if he wanted to rule the world himself? Does that change anything? Are the means even remotely proportional to the ends? Assuming the end in question is a Japan free of Britannian rule, you may think it a valid trade to kill ten soldiers. What about a thousand? What if instead of killing a thousand Britannian soldiers, he had to kill a million innocent Japanese citizens? Is it still worth it? Or what if the ends he were trying to achieve weren't so lofty? What if he wanted something really mundane, but still considered "good"? Is that worth pursuing extreme measures for? It's one thing to say that the tradeoffs that Lelouch is making in the series are worth it. I think you'd be hard-pressed to say the ends always justify the means. Sometimes doing the moral thing is the right thing. |
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2008-04-11, 21:45 | Link #143 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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You can all you want - but the point I'm trying to make is that it's easy to claim that "ends justify the means" in the series, the writers can make it anyway they want. You're the one who said you can't focus on his methods because his ends are good.
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2008-04-11, 21:47 | Link #144 | |
the red string of fate
Join Date: Jan 2007
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In Code Geass, ends justify means, if merely becaues means don't justify ends. The world is not kind enough to allow such idealistic thinkers to survive, they either disappear into their small corners unable to affect the world as a whole, or they walk the path of carnage. There are no other options. And to be fair, Lelouch may be amoral in the general sense, but he at least tries to adhere to his own personal principles. It's not as if his means are irrevocably evil by any definition. |
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2008-04-11, 21:51 | Link #145 | |
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Killing innocent civilians is also counter to his goals, because he wants to create a world where those without power are not abused by those who do. I said we couldn't focus on the cost of his methods in comparison to the worth of his goal. We already established what his methods are, and they don't involve doing the complete opposite of his ends. You're taking things way out of context from what we've been shown thus far and not basing them on anything solid. |
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2008-04-11, 22:09 | Link #146 | |
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I'm not going to say that his methods were entirely wrong - Britannia plays hardball, and the Black Knights need to respond in kind if they want to get anywhere. I'll even give a pass to the lives lost at Narita, since it didn't go according to plan, but I would suggest that someone who strives to protect the weak wouldn't put innocents at risk like that. Abandoning the Black Knights in Tokyo to track down his sister is something a little tougher - to me, it highlights the big disconnect. It fits with what he wants to do: if he's looking to build a perfect world for his sister, it'd be pointless if she gets killed, so he does have to go after her. But in order to build this perfect world for her, his relationship with the Black Knights is an alliance of convenience. His goals and theirs for the most part coincide, but as the end of season 1 showed, he'd throw them all under the bus if need be. I don't think I'm too out there in suggesting that "the cost" of trading all of them for his sister is cause for an eyebrow raise or two. |
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2008-04-11, 22:13 | Link #147 |
WHERE'S...MY...COW????
Join Date: Dec 2007
Age: 34
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I think Lelouch knows that a perfect world is impossible. He wants a world where Nunnally can be happy and where they no longer have to fear anymore.
It may seem odd to abandon his battle for his sister, but it sort of shows that Lelouch chose love over power in this case if you look at it in a certain way.
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2008-04-11, 22:17 | Link #148 | |
the red string of fate
Join Date: Jan 2007
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Besides, it's not like he was abandoning them permanently. >_> edit: (see episode 5) |
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2008-04-11, 22:26 | Link #151 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Of course, the fact that the Black Knights go through all that trouble to get him back in the first episode of the second season suggests it's a lie they're willing to live with as well. It just so happens that his goals align, for the most part, with theirs. Ironically, given what happened to Nunnally, there's even less chance he'll abandon them now, since he needs them more than ever. |
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2008-04-11, 22:32 | Link #152 | |
the red string of fate
Join Date: Jan 2007
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The truth is that Lelouch is their comerade, fighting Britannia for the same reason a lot of them are: family, and the idea that Lelouch is merely using them is the lie, born out of self sacrificing tendencies or sheer panic or whatever you want to call it. |
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2008-04-11, 22:34 | Link #153 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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If one is to achieve anything then sometimes one must take risks, it's only logical that at some point incidents like Narita will happen no matter what he does, that's the cost when he decided to take up arms in the first place. But that also means he doesn't go out of his way to protect the people as well, the hotel-jacking is a good example, and his subsequent shift of the Order from a terrorist organization that targets civilians who have nothing to do with the struggle to a vigilante Order that defends them from abuse. That he has personal reasons for what he does is something that is understandable, many in the order have there own personal reasons for working with him as well. It also effects his usually calm and logical judgment, at that point he wasn't weighing the overall objective over the costs like he usually does, he does the exact opposite in fact. So you can say its actually because he detracts from his ways that things ended as badly as they did. In any case Episode 1 of Season 2 shows he's working to correct that little misshape with the Order |
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2008-04-11, 23:09 | Link #154 |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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I think that Lelouch gets very emotionally connected to people he knows well. This is why he does such unstratigic things when those close to him are in danger. I really saw him abandoning his troops as a sign of his youth and relative inexperience.
I don't understand why the Order does not have reservations about him being their leader again. If I was in the order I might resuce him, I might want his help with stratgy again, but I would only want him as an advisor not a leader. |
2008-04-11, 23:14 | Link #156 | |
the red string of fate
Join Date: Jan 2007
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"Other than him, who else could do something like this?" Can't blame Lelouch from getting captured when nearly all of them got captured too. At least with him in the lead, they stood a fighting chance. |
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2008-04-11, 23:22 | Link #157 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Lelouch could lie about why he left, if Kallen doesn't tell. |
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2008-04-11, 23:52 | Link #159 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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I think that Lelouch's strength as a likable character is his empathy towards others. He has a great deal of self awareness and knows that empathy is potentially a weakness when in conflict with others. I belive that he has cultivated a cool (as in distant) personality, and practiced a strategic way of looking at the world, in order to keep his empathy from imoblizing him. |
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2008-04-12, 07:24 | Link #160 |
WHERE'S...MY...COW????
Join Date: Dec 2007
Age: 34
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Part of R2 is going to be about the Order being tested as a real organization, which means that while Lelouch will still be the leader, he won't be the sole source of everything and thus have everyone dependent on him which was the problem in season 1.
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