Character discussion - Araragi Koyomi

[omimon]

Originally Posted by LotionExplosion

Apparently Saying "Till Death Do Us Part" doesn't work with vampires.

Spoiler:

Actually it's not Shinobu who is not willing for "Till Death Do Us Part". Shinobu has been begging Koyomi to kill her and have him become a human again since the end of Kizu. If it was up to Shinobu she would have died already, but Araragi said possibly the romantic line to her in the whole series, " If you die tomorrow then my life will also end tomorrow--- if you live for today then I will also live for today." Hitagi has nothing on Shinobu.

[LotionExplosion]

Originally Posted by omimon

Spoiler:

Actually it's not Shinobu who is not willing for "Till Death Do Us Part". Shinobu has been begging Koyomi to kill her and have him become a human again since the end of Kizu. If it was up to Shinobu she would have died already, but Araragi said possibly the romantic line to her in the whole series, " If you die tomorrow then my life will also end tomorrow--- if you live for today then I will also live for today." Hitagi has nothing on Shinobu.

Wow.. pretty strong stuff there, how about through out "Nise" Does she still bug him about letting her die already? Its hard to really come up for a question on the whole ordeal.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by LotionExplosion

Wow.. pretty strong stuff there, how about through out "Nise" Does she still bug him about letting her die already? Its hard to really come up for a question on the whole ordeal.

Yea, she does, but I'm beginning to feel that Shinobu has found her reason to live in Araragi.

Spoiler:

Now I'm not perfectly sure on this but I think the reason Shinobu is so focused on turning Araragi back into a human is because she feels guilty about not being able to help her first servant in turning back into a human. From what I can tell she sees Araragi as a last chance for her to do something she wasn't able to do 400 years ago. However, after 4 months of the silent treatment I guess she realize that there is no need for her to be stuck in the past anymore.

This is all my own interpretation so don't take everything here as canon.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by omimon

Spoiler:

Actually it's not Shinobu who is not willing for "Till Death Do Us Part". Shinobu has been begging Koyomi to kill her and have him become a human again since the end of Kizu. If it was up to Shinobu she would have died already, but Araragi said possibly the romantic line to her in the whole series, " If you die tomorrow then my life will also end tomorrow--- if you live for today then I will also live for today." Hitagi has nothing on Shinobu.

Spoiler:

Well that was certainly a powerful line. Though I don't think Araragi meant it in any romantic way. Think it sits the same as with Hanekawa in terms of him being unwilling to bend. Just mean that he wouldn't be able to move forward if he had the responsibility of ending someone's life in the process.

He didn't want to sacrifice Kanbaru's arm, he wanted to try and save the people who had cursed Nadeko. He's just the type who won't become fully human if it means having someone else die for it. Plus he's really stubborn when it comes to that like with Hanekawa and wanting to repay his debt even if she hated him for it. In a reasonable sense he should have let Kanbaru's arm be cut off rather than putting his life on the line and possibly dying in a fight against the Rainy Devil. It was also crazy to fight on against the snake and possibly die rather than let it go back and kill the one who placed the curse. He was labeled right as being the type of person who would save anyone.

In the end Araragi loves Senjougahara. It's just that he feels strongly about these kinds of things. Not that I'm saying Shinobu has no meaning to him just that it isn't the same type of feeling as for Senjougahara or quite a strong.

Of course only followed the anime so what do I know ?

[Haak]

GAAAAH! Stop tempting me with your cursed spoilers!!!!!

[omimon]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Spoiler:

Well that was certainly a powerful line. Though I don't think Araragi meant it in any romantic way. Think it sits the same as with Hanekawa in terms of him being unwilling to bend. Just mean that he wouldn't be able to move forward if he had the responsibility of ending someone's life in the process.

He didn't want to sacrifice Kanbaru's arm, he wanted to try and save the people who had cursed Nadeko. He's just the type who won't become fully human if it means having someone else die for it. Plus he's really stubborn when it comes to that like with Hanekawa and wanting to repay his debt even if she hated him for it. In a reasonable sense he should have let Kanbaru's arm be cut off rather than putting his life on the line and possibly dying in a fight against the Rainy Devil. It was also crazy to fight on against the snake and possibly die rather than let it go back and kill the one who placed the curse. He was labeled right as being the type of person who would save anyone.

In the end Araragi loves Senjougahara. It's just that he feels strongly about these kinds of things. Not that I'm saying Shinobu has no meaning to him just that it isn't the same type of feeling as for Senjougahara or quite a strong.

Of course only followed the anime so what do I know ?

Spoiler:

No, you're right. The feelings Araragi have for Shinobu is more of a promise to himself. Since you haven't read Kizu I guess you don't know, but it's actually kinda complicated and I think everyone has a different way of seeing their relationship. All I can say is if Shinobu decides to kill herself I think Araragi will die right next to her even if everyone came to stop him. (This point is really BIG because he promised her this even after Hanekawa made this huge speech about how him dying won't solve anything.)

But yea, as I have said already in my past posts that are floating around in this whole Bake forum, the bond Koyomi has with Hitagi is only 80 year tops but with Shinobu.......it's forever......

[LotionExplosion]

Originally Posted by omimon

Spoiler:

No, you're right. The feelings Araragi have for Shinobu is more of a promise to himself. Since you haven't read Kizu I guess you don't know, but it's actually kinda complicated and I think everyone has a different way of seeing their relationship. All I can say is if Shinobu decides to kill herself I think Araragi will die right next to her even if everyone came to stop him. (This point is really BIG because he promised her this even after Hanekawa made this huge speech about how him dying won't solve anything.)

But yea, as I have said already in my past posts that are floating around in this whole Bake forum, the bond Koyomi has with Hitagi is only 80 year tops but with Shinobu.......it's forever......

Spoiler for Devotion?:

So your saying if Shinobu commits suicide, Araragi does the same? In a way his totally devoted to Shinobu as well right?

[omimon]

Originally Posted by LotionExplosion

Spoiler for Devotion?:

So your saying if Shinobu commits suicide, Araragi does the same? In a way his totally devoted to Shinobu as well right?

Spoiler:

Hmmm.....devoted might not be the right word choice. But in a sense he is "devoted" to his believes. Like I said, the thing between Hitagi and Koyomi is love but with Shinobu and Araragi its like...... family.......he is willing to give his life for her and she is willing to give her life to him. I am not sure what kinds of feeling she has for Koyomi in a romantic way, but she is willing to give up everything for him.

[LotionExplosion]

Originally Posted by omimon

Spoiler:

Hmmm.....devoted might not be the right word choice. But in a sense he is "devoted" to his believes. Like I said, the thing between Hitagi and Koyomi is love but with Shinobu and Araragi its like...... family.......he is willing to give his life for her and she is willing to give her life to him. I am not sure what kinds of feeling she has for Koyomi in a romantic way, but she is willing to give up everything for him.

ah, I see. That makes perfect sense now, thanks.

[Zetsubo]

Koyomi has a Matyr complex.

It happens to people who have low selfesteem as well as other psychological and emotional issues.

Particularly to teenagers.

These people seek fullfilment by giving up the most precious thing a human has.

Thus giving up their life becomes a currency toward a twisted sense of self actualisation.

Shinobu is suffering from guilt and boredom from immortality.

However, Koyomi now has a new reason to live... her name is Hitagi.

If he thinks about his future and pssible children, he will let Shinobu go.

Finally Shinobu can rest in peace after 400 years of guilt about her first Samurai servant.

I guess you can say Koyomi has a Samurai spirit.

Their own life means nothing unless it is in service to another person.

I think the author has a lot of closures to make for this series... he could turn it into a tragedy too... but I doubt it.

[Azuma Denton]

LOL'd

sometimes i wanna know...
if araragi dies because of shinobu...
how Senjougahara, i mean, Hitagi~san will react??

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

Koyomi has a Matyr complex.

It happens to people who have low selfesteem as well as other psychological and emotional issues.

Particularly to teenagers.

These people seek fullfilment by giving up the most precious thing a human has.

Thus giving up their life becomes a currency toward a twisted sense of self actualisation.

Shinobu is suffering from guilt and boredom from immortality.

However, Koyomi now has a new reason to live... her name is Hitagi.

If he thinks about his future and pssible children, he will let Shinobu go.

Finally Shinobu can rest in peace after 400 years of guilt about her first Samurai servant.

I guess you can say Koyomi has a Samurai spirit.

Their own life means nothing unless it is in service to another person.

I think the author has a lot of closures to make for this series... he could turn it into a tragedy too... but I doubt it.

Well, if you think about it Kizu is a tragedy by itself. Kiss doesn't get what she wants and neither does Araragi.

Personally, I think the most logical ending between Araragi and Shinobu is that after everyone Araragi knows (his family and friends) dies, he'll choose to just end it then. I mean by that point he will have no reason to want to be a human anymore. Now, if we are talking about kids, do we really think he'll want to bring kids into his Kaii-driven life. Whether he likes it or not, his life is now and will forever be one with Kaiis. Also, if he becomes human again he won't be able to protect himself or anyone else from Kaiis anymore.

But in all honesty, I'm bias towards Shinobu, so I'm pushing for an ending where Shinobu and Araragi are together forever even if they don't have romantic feelings for each other.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by omimon

Well, if you think about it Kizu is a tragedy by itself. Kiss doesn't get what she wants and neither does Araragi.

Personally, I think the most logical ending between Araragi and Shinobu is that after everyone Araragi knows (his family and friends) dies, he'll choose to just end it then. I mean by that point he will have no reason to want to be a human anymore. Now, if we are talking about kids, do we really think he'll want to bring kids into his Kaii-driven life. Whether he likes it or not, his life is now and will forever be one with Kaiis. Also, if he becomes human again he won't be able to protect himself or anyone else from Kaiis anymore.

But in all honesty, I'm bias towards Shinobu, so I'm pushing for an ending where Shinobu and Araragi are together forever even if they don't have romantic feelings for each other.

Yuck.

So childish.

Forever ?

So selfish and cruel.

Be reasonable... forever is why the Shinobu's Samurai lover killed himself.

Forever is painful.

Forever is unusual cruelty to living beings.

As a man, live a normal life span... and die peacefully.

That is balance... yin and yang.

Life then Death.

If you mess with the cycles balance... and enact this "forever" thing, your mind, as a normal human being will bend.

There will be other consequences... maybe Oshino's decendants will have to kill Koyomi.

I realised you never stopped to think of Koyomis mental state after such a long time did you ?

Why you think Shinobu's first servant killed himself ?

A human cannot live forever without going mad.

Koyomi would certainly go nuts.

When he watches Hitagi die, his Kids die, his grand kidsd die, Hanekawa, her family, Kanbaru, his sisters, and their family, even Mayoi finally decides to pass to the spirit world... won't he be lonely again ?

Won't he wish to see them again ?

Wont he ache from all the lives he has loved passing away and watching their gravestones grow in number but he is still alive ?

Right now Koymi is a boy, he hasn't come to grips with life and death cycles as a part of the world yet.

He wants to save everyone... which is just bullshit and wishywashy.

He will eventually have grow up make a choice and let Shinobu go.

No wonder Oshino is pissed at Koyomi most of the time... Koyomi does not think and sees the world like a sheltered boy does.

Grow some balls man... Hitagi and Hanekawa have helped him so far... and there is progress... but in order for his Adulthood to properly develop... he has to let Shinobu go.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

Yuck.

So childish.

Forever ?

So selfish and cruel.

Be reasonable... forever is why the Shinobu's Samurai lover killed himself.

Forever is painful.

Forever is unusual cruelty to living beings.

As a man, live a normal life span... and die peacefully.

That is balance... yin and yang.

Life then Death.

If you mess with the cycles balance... and enact this "forever" thing, your mind, as a normal human being will bend.

There will be other consequences... maybe Oshino's decendants will have to kill Koyomi.

I realised you never stopped to think of Koyomis mental state after such a long time did you ?

Why you think Shinobu's first servant killed himself ?

A human cannot live forever without going mad.

Koyomi would certainly go nuts.

When he watches Hitagi die, his Kids die, his grand kidsd die, Hanekawa, her family, Kanbaru, his sisters, and their family, even Mayoi finally decides to pass to the spirit world... won't he be lonely again ?

Won't he wish to see them again ?

Wont he ache from all the lives he has loved passing away and watching their gravestones grow in number but he is still alive ?

Right now Koymi is a boy, he hasn't come to grips with life and death cycles as a part of the world yet.

He wants to save everyone... which is just bullshit and wishywashy.

He will eventually have grow up make a choice and let Shinobu go.

No wonder Oshino is pissed at Koyomi most of the time... Koyomi does not think and sees the world like a sheltered boy does.

Grow some balls man... Hitagi and Hanekawa have helped him so far... and there is progress... but in order for his Adulthood to properly develop... he has to let Shinobu go.

Ok, fair enough, I can see what you mean by forever is painful since Shinobu wanted to off herself too before she met Araragi. (She still kinda is but not as much) As for the samurai I believe it was because he needed to eat people in order to survive and it was torturing him. (I'm not sure about this but I think it was implied) Of course I can also see what you mean by Araragi being a child and just hoping everything goes well, I mean I think he kinda learned his lesson with Nadeko. Then again isn't it selfish too for him to give up Shinobu just because he can grow old together with Hitagi, I mean that whole reason why he hasn't given up yet since he doesn't want someone else's life on his shoulders while he is happy. For all he cares, he can dump alway his happiness just so everyone else is happy. Also, it's not like Hitagi doesn't know what she was getting herself into I mean she knew for a fact that he is a freaking meta-vampire. But ultimately we'll never know what he decides to do in the future.

[Zetsubo]

Originally Posted by omimon

Then again isn't it selfish too for him to give up Shinobu just because he can grow old together with Hitagi,

No for several reasons.

1. Shinobu wants to rest in peace after 500 years of living.
2. He is not thinking about himself and Shinobou alone but the many people who need him alive. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. That is life.
3. He has to reason out his future with his FAMILY not just any possible family with Hitagi but his parents and sisters as well.
4. He has to take into consideration the wise counsel of his genius friend Oshino who told him what to do.
5. He is taking into consideration what Shinobu has told him.
6. In the end Hitagi will need him more than he needs himself and more than Shinobou needs him. He is the reason she is growing and making positive changes and this is something that takes a lifetime.
7. If he wants to be helpful like Oshino, he has to become 100% human again. A half assed approach and half assed oddity cannot help people.
8. If you want to help people, you have to be truly capable of doing so... being an oddity himself limits his ability to help.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

No for several reasons.

1. Shinobu wants to rest in peace after 500 years of living.
2. He is not thinking about himself and Shinobou alone but the many people who need him alive. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. That is life.
3. He has to reason out his future with his FAMILY not just any possible family with Hitagi but his parents and sisters as well.
4. He has to take into consideration the wise counsel of his genius friend Oshino who told him what to do.
5. He is taking into consideration what Shinobu has told him.
6. In the end Hitagi will need him more than he needs himself and more than Shinobou needs him. He is the reason she is growing and making positive changes and this is something that takes a lifetime.
7. If he wants to be helpful like Oshino, he has to become 100% human again. A half assed approach and half assed oddity cannot help people.
8. If you want to help people, you have to be truly capable of doing so... being an oddity himself limits his ability to help.

Well.....

1. This is debatable since if Shinobu doesn't drink from him, she will die and Araragi will turn back into a human. I don't know if Araragi has some way of forcing blood into her mouth....but that's my argument
2. Well his family wasn't enough to stop him from killing himself the first time so they aren't going to be a factor the next time either. As for his friends......well they might be a factor.....
3. See above
4. The reason Oshino left was because he trust Araragi that the future he decides will be the right one whether its to live forever or not. Besides, he left without saying a word so I wouldn't start giving out awards to this wise man just yet.
5. Everything that she has said has been speculation, it's very likely what she says is true but I wouldn't start chopping her into pieces either in the near future.
6. Well, how can we determine that Shinobu needs Araragi any less than Hitagi does. You say that he is having a positive influence in Hitagi but doesn't he also have one with Shinobu? I mean Shinobu has been alone for the past 400 years and Araragi is the first person to ever be close to her since then. I mean in a sense, he is healing her too.
7. Well, remember what happened in Nadeko Snake where Oshino needed Araragi and Kanbaru who were two part-Kaiis to enter a shrine and put on a seal. They were only able to do that because they had Kaii blood flowing through them, Oshino said it would be a lot more tougher or even impossible for him to do it himself.
8. Like I said above, it not like being a Kaii would limit his abilities, also I think you are thinking too much on the emotional side of thing, I see a lot more on the physical side and the fact that he has powers makes defeating Kaiis a lot more easier. I mean lets face it, without his powers he would have died at least 5 times if we are going to up to Nise 1.

Well, I await your rebuttal.

[Azuma Denton]

Err, i believed that this already spoiler because what you guys discussed is a future that based on Kizumonogatari story (Araragi and Shinobu)...

[Full Metal Coast]

Originally Posted by Zetsubo

No for several reasons.

1. Shinobu wants to rest in peace after 500 years of living.
2. He is not thinking about himself and Shinobou alone but the many people who need him alive. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. That is life.
3. He has to reason out his future with his FAMILY not just any possible family with Hitagi but his parents and sisters as well.
4. He has to take into consideration the wise counsel of his genius friend Oshino who told him what to do.
5. He is taking into consideration what Shinobu has told him.
6. In the end Hitagi will need him more than he needs himself and more than Shinobou needs him. He is the reason she is growing and making positive changes and this is something that takes a lifetime.
7. If he wants to be helpful like Oshino, he has to become 100% human again. A half assed approach and half assed oddity cannot help people.
8. If you want to help people, you have to be truly capable of doing so... being an oddity himself limits his ability to help.

these are excellent points. also Araragi also has to realise that living is not necessarily what shinobu want and stop taking the matry route and think about what she wants. and he should also think about what would happen to senjougahara if he died as well which would result in either her killing herself or completely shutting off from the outside world.

also shinobus view of just wanting to die already is a pretty common view in series with vampire characters because i have found out that elmost all vampires when they get to a point all end up saying that the one beautiful thing about a human life compared to a vampires is death. examples in Hellsing and Vampire Hunter D.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by Full Metal Coast

these are excellent points. also Araragi also has to realise that living is not necessarily what shinobu want and stop taking the matry route and think about what she wants. and he should also think about what would happen to senjougahara if he died as well which would result in either her killing herself or completely shutting off from the outside world.

also shinobus view of just wanting to die already is a pretty common view in series with vampire characters because i have found out that elmost all vampires when they get to a point all end up saying that the one beautiful thing about a human life compared to a vampires is death. examples in Hellsing and Vampire Hunter D.

The thing about Araragi is that he is stuck between two ends of the spectrum. He is willing to give up his live for another, but he needs to live in order to keep Shinobu alive. Honestly, if Nisio wrote Kizu before Bake, I'm sure the stories would have turned out differently. I mean I personally feel that he didn't plan everything out when he was writing Bake 2.....but I could be totally wrong here. I mean whatever is going on in Araragi's mind is totally up for grabs. First, he wants Shinobu to live by using his own life as a hostage.....then he goes and starts picking fights with devils, poisonous snakes and energy-draining cats. For all we know the next move he pulls could be trying to find a time-traveling Kaii and then going back in time and keeping all the bad things in the world from happening.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by omimon

Spoiler:

No, you're right. The feelings Araragi have for Shinobu is more of a promise to himself. Since you haven't read Kizu I guess you don't know, but it's actually kinda complicated and I think everyone has a different way of seeing their relationship. All I can say is if Shinobu decides to kill herself I think Araragi will die right next to her even if everyone came to stop him. (This point is really BIG because he promised her this even after Hanekawa made this huge speech about how him dying won't solve anything.)

But yea, as I have said already in my past posts that are floating around in this whole Bake forum, the bond Koyomi has with Hitagi is only 80 year tops but with Shinobu.......it's forever......

Spoiler:

I have to say things get complicated with Araragi. He tries to do a lot and help everyone he can. There is little I can say about the relationship with Shinobu since in regards to the anime there hasn't been a great deal of interaction. She's just kind of been....there.

When you think about it that could turn into a very messy situation. If he did try to take himself out and die next to her then he might have Senjougahara doing the same thing. Of course the type of person he is wouldn't want to be the cause of anyone's death so he couldn't die next to Shinobu, and yet he would have to due to the promise. He kind of hits a weird place where he has to act, can't act, and yet has to act.

A small question is about Araragi's situation. Is he full blown immortal? As in living forever kind or is it just regeneration?

Originally Posted by omimon

Well, if you think about it Kizu is a tragedy by itself. Kiss doesn't get what she wants and neither does Araragi.

Personally, I think the most logical ending between Araragi and Shinobu is that after everyone Araragi knows (his family and friends) dies, he'll choose to just end it then. I mean by that point he will have no reason to want to be a human anymore. Now, if we are talking about kids, do we really think he'll want to bring kids into his Kaii-driven life. Whether he likes it or not, his life is now and will forever be one with Kaiis. Also, if he becomes human again he won't be able to protect himself or anyone else from Kaiis anymore.

But in all honesty, I'm bias towards Shinobu, so I'm pushing for an ending where Shinobu and Araragi are together forever even if they don't have romantic feelings for each other.

Yeah I'm just kind of catching up to everything said .

I'm not so sure he'll make that kind of call. I mean he said himself the Kaiis were always there. Besides he's willing to be involved with Senjougahara. Sure he tries to take care of things without getting her involved but, being with her means she will be involved. If he's willing to still be with Senjougahara then I can't see him rejecting children for that same reason. Also isn't it that he can't protect others because he's part oddity not thanks to it? He said himself he can't become like Oshino because he's 1/10 oddity. So wouldn't becoming 100% human again actually allow him to help people better and protect those around him better? Being a physical shield clearly can only do so much.

I have no idea how things will end for Araragi. Really things seem to be pushing him to realizing he can't just try to help everyone. He needs to pick and choose what's important to him and focus on that. I'd like for things to end well for everyone but that doesn't seem possible. If he decides to keep Shinobu at a high importance level then he can't let her die. Which means he can't really help people as much as he would like. If your right and he will constantly be involved with the oddities then it's almost demanded he let Shinobu go. Since Oshino won't be around forever he'll have to resolve the problems himself. But he won't be able to do that unless he's not an oddity.

Seems like he's at a crossroad and has to make a choice. If he keeps going as he is then eventually he'll get too involved in something and get himself killed. I really only see those two paths for him. The body he has is handy but it clearly is limited and can't solve everything. What goes on in Araragi's mind is beyond me. He has to make a choice about what he wants to do.