Anime DVD/BD Sales in Japan: Discussion

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

You haven't really thought this through. When a franchise like Bakemonogatari, or Madoka Magica, or K-On comes around, the market is already conditioned to pay the asking price because that's perceived as normal. And these shows manage to push product that greatly exceeds the normal boundaries of just "insane people".

Basically, it's being sold as a luxury product, based on a "how badly do you want it" sort of system. People who want to buy it will pay the premium. People who don't want to buy it can either rent it or go without. And by doing it this way, it keeps the perceived value of anime on home media very high, which serves them well when a break-out hit comes along that ends up raking in millions upon millions.

Very well said.

I can certainly understand anime fans not liking these prices, for the simple reason that customers tend to not like high prices, but they exist for a practical reason.

It's worth noting that at least an anime show or two experimented with selling anime DVDs at greatly reduced costs, IIRC, to see if it would create a worthwhile rise in the number of sales.

And while it did create a spike in sales, it just wasn't enough to compensate for the price differential, IIRC.


The system as is creates a lot of sales competition between anime shows, but for those that "win" the competitions, it's quite profitable.

[0utf0xZer0]

One other thing to note: despite this pricing, more than 50% of bluray disks sold in Japan are anime. Which tends to suggest to me that non-otaku Japanese simply don't tend to be collectors of home video material - I imagine the small apartments are part of the equation.

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

The other thing worth mentioning is that one may ask why Japan doesn't order DVDs/BDs from outside of Japan. There's a reason for that - the raws the licensers outside of Japan are sent are lower quality so that the Japanese version is the superior version - may not be such a big difference on BD but on DVD there certainly is. That's one reason they pay more than us - they get the better version in a lot of cases. I learnt this from a mate who is in the DVD industry and has delved into this. He also mentioned the subtle differences in frame rates between Japan and other countries also prevent optimum performance due to synchronisation issues. So to prevent reverse importing and the purchase of 'affordable versions', the quality of what we can purchase is considerably less in a lot of cases.

The framerate one affects some material in foreign markets but not all of it:
-Anime is generally mastered at 24 FPS (although the animation itself may be drawn at a lower rat like 8 or 12 FPS)
-Bluray is encoded at 24 FPS everywhere. So, for reference, are pretty much all fansubs.
-NTSC DVDs and broadcasts are technically more like 30FPS but 24FPS actually converts to 30FPS very well, in fact, Japanese DVDs do this. NTSC is used in the US, Canada, Japan, South Korea and a handful of others (mainly in Latin America).
-PAL and SECAM DVDs and broadcasts use 25FPS. 24FPS doesn't convert to 25FPS very well, so if I remember right most producers just speed the material up about 4%. PAL and SECAM are used in an awful lot of countries, including Europe, Australia (which is why your friend would know about it), China, most of Latin America, etc.

[Last Sinner]

On-topic, after seeing the latest round of sales figures for October, Last Exile: Silver Wing is probably going to bomb as well. Gonzo bites the dust once more.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

On-topic, after seeing the latest round of sales figures for October, Last Exile: Silver Wing is probably going to bomb as well. Gonzo bites the dust once more.

Eight years is too long for a sequel.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

One other thing to note: despite this pricing, more than 50% of bluray disks sold in Japan are anime. Which tends to suggest to me that non-otaku Japanese simply don't tend to be collectors of home video material - I imagine the small apartments are part of the equation.

We're in an increasingly digital age too, and more and more people do not want to buy something that they can get from a digital download which takes: virtually no space, can be acquired instantly, and is usually cheaper than going out to a middle-man store and buying something.

From an US side of sales figures, I wonder if the anime industry makes much of anything off of Hulu, Crunchy, and other streamers, because that is probably one of the few ways for the anime industry to really set a foothold in the US. I can't imagine that DVD/Bluray sales amount to much when people's fate in dubs is lacking and (I don't know if this holds true anymore) but subbing groups provide(d) more quality tied to a speedier delivery. Mayhaps, anime could use a service like Steam that makes titles more accessible through a much more convenient medium and regularly puts older or less known things on sale. If a series isn't earning much to begin with, why not put its older volumes on sale some months/year later?

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

On-topic, after seeing the latest round of sales figures for October, Last Exile: Silver Wing is probably going to bomb as well. Gonzo bites the dust once more.

Unfortunately, much of Exile has been riding on the success and greatness of the original that, for many, hasn't been captured very well with our new main cast (though the old cast is resparking some of the old flare). I have to wonder if they wouldn't have been better off with keeping the old cast (without the new one which seems to have been done more to pander than for the sake of the story) and making the current manga into the anime, and the current anime into the manga.

[hyl]

Some people just buy the dvd and/or BD not just for their collection, but for the bonus content as well. Like commentaries, random collectables like posters, books, cd's etc.
Or in other cases for the uncensored or redone scenes (in fate zero's case a few more extra minutes ) and sometimes for extra episodes/footages in usually the entire boxset or final dvd/bd.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Vena

Unfortunately, much of Exile has been riding on the success and greatness of the original that, for many, hasn't been captured very well with our new main cast (though the old cast is resparking some of the old flare). I have to wonder if they wouldn't have been better off with keeping the old cast (without the new one which seems to have been done more to pander than for the sake of the story) and making the current manga into the anime, and the current anime into the manga.

Agreed. Last Exile worked in its original form because it had a great mix of males as well as females. It wasn't like Range Murata's trademark females weren't in the original - they sure were! I think there's just too much of a cave-in to modern trends with the sequel. Gonzo have not tried to hide they want to cater to the West but get some success domestically. They never seem to do it - mainly because they enabled poor writing post-Last Exile from growing too fast and not learning lessons they should have. I'm amazed theis sequel got licensed in Australia before it even aired. I find it amusing the secret screenings in August were of an incomplete Episode 1 and fans of the original were a bit wary even then. *shrug*I love the original so much - it got me into anime. Seeing this try to cater to too many different tastes is tragic. And yes - 8 years was way too long as Xellos said. Lot of the anime fans I knew in 2003 I haven't seen in years and they've stopped watching current matieral.

Ah, Gonzo...when will you ever learn...

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Vena

We're in an increasingly digital age too, and more and more people do not want to buy something that they can get from a digital download which takes: virtually no space, can be acquired instantly, and is usually cheaper than going out to a middle-man store and buying something.

Digital distribution is picking up in Japan. However, I understand that they're still way behind the western markets, whether we're referring to video, music, or games. Only their mobile content (i.e. social gaming) is booming.

From an US side of sales figures, I wonder if the anime industry makes much of anything off of Hulu, Crunchy, and other streamers, because that is probably one of the few ways for the anime industry to really set a foothold in the US.

They're making money. However, it's apparently not enough to be a big deal to anyone (still a potential area for growth as opposed to a reliable means of sustaining the industry).

Unfortunately, much of Exile has been riding on the success and greatness of the original that, for many, hasn't been captured very well with our new main cast (though the old cast is resparking some of the old flare). I have to wonder if they wouldn't have been better off with keeping the old cast (without the new one which seems to have been done more to pander than for the sake of the story) and making the current manga into the anime, and the current anime into the manga.

Last Exile was never a humungous hit in Japan. Also, eight years have gone by, so I don't imagine that the original is particularly relevant to the majority of viewers.

To some degree, Gonzo is trying to have it both ways. They want a product that's true to their heritage and marketable to older fans (including western markets). However, they also need to appeal to contemporary consumers.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by TJR

Last Exile was never a humungous hit in Japan. Also, eight years have gone by, so I don't imagine that the original is particularly relevant to the majority of viewers.

To some degree, Gonzo is trying to have it both ways. They want a product that's true to their heritage and marketable to older fans (including western markets). However, they also need to appeal to contemporary consumers.

Last Exile was a western success, was it not (not to say that it went bust in Japan)? Or at least I have always been under that impression with its rather well known status in the west for an anime that isn't from Studio Gibli. I think where Gonzo lost, aside from trying to revive an eight year old classic, was to then attempt to pander to an audience that was not originally Exile's largest audience and, in doing so, alienated the fans of the original. Shooting themselves in the foot in true Gonzo style.

Spoiler for Not a spoiler, but its off-topic and more about LE than sales:

If they were that intent on reviving an eight year old show, following the original cast that people know and can immediately be *sold on* as well as characters who are already developed, consistent, and proven to be likable, would have been a far safer endeavor than attempting to pander, failing at that, and in the process disappointing the older fans. I know that Gonzo is desperate, and I want LE to succeed, but they've gone about it the worst way possible by throwing away much of what was good in the original series or waiting almost too long to reintroduce it. The worst part, I think, is that the show, even in this incarnation, has great potential in its story but is trying to present it in favorable ways to too many audiences. There's almost no fluidity or consistency between Fam's part of the plot (jovial and at times preposterous in its antics, events, and execution) and the Federation's much darker part (strangely led by a little girl of all things, which smells of more pandering).

[0utf0xZer0]

Having watched all of both seasons of Last Exile over the last few days, I don't think that the loli empress panders to the moe crowd any more than Alvis and Holly (the first voice role of a then 14 year old Kana Hanazawa) did in the original.

The yuri-riffic central cast, on the other hand...

And for reference, the original Last Exile sold in the high 5K range in Japan. So not a big hit, but hardly a small title either.

[TJR]

Originally Posted by Vena

Last Exile was a western success, was it not (not to say that it went bust in Japan)? Or at least I have always been under that impression with its rather well known status in the west for an anime that isn't from Studio Gibli. I think where Gonzo lost, aside from trying to revive an eight year old classic, was to then attempt to pander to an audience that was not originally Exile's largest audience and, in doing so, alienated the fans of the original. Shooting themselves in the foot in true Gonzo style.

The bubble burst though, so no one's foolish enough to bank on the west for success (I'd also add that part of Gonzo's early success came from bidding wars as opposed to actual sales).

At this point, relying too much on the previous work might be risky.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Very well said.

I can certainly understand anime fans not liking these prices, for the simple reason that customers tend to not like high prices, but they exist for a practical reason.

It's worth noting that at least an anime show or two experimented with selling anime DVDs at greatly reduced costs, IIRC, to see if it would create a worthwhile rise in the number of sales.

And while it did create a spike in sales, it just wasn't enough to compensate for the price differential, IIRC.


The system as is creates a lot of sales competition between anime shows, but for those that "win" the competitions, it's quite profitable.

Considering that the DVDs/Blue-Rays are essentially collector items you'd think that would only further drive the offer of a donwload option that allows you to download an episode for something like $5, with a discount if you download the entire series.

Thus you'd get the more casual fans to be paying in as well.

[hyl]

Originally Posted by TJR

The bubble burst though, so no one's foolish enough to bank on the west for success (I'd also add that part of Gonzo's early success came from bidding wars as opposed to actual sales).

At this point, relying too much on the previous work might be risky.

Weren't some series (like The big O) a big flop in japan, but ended being a succes in the USA/western market?
The big 0 ended up even getting a 2nd season thanks to the western market.

[Vena]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

Having watched all of both seasons of Last Exile over the last few days, I don't think that the loli empress panders to the moe crowd any more than Alvis and Holly (the first voice role of a then 14 year old Kana Hanazawa) did in the original.

While I see your point, I can't help but feel (when compared to what we had for royalty in the original), that the little girl empress seems awfully out of place. On the rest I'd say two things: 1.) Holly existed for all of 5 relevant minutes and tied to the much more important role played by her Father (that is to say that she was a plot device), 2.) neither of them were world leaders. But that aside, I understand where you're coming from.

Originally Posted by TJR

The bubble burst though, so no one's foolish enough to bank on the west for success (I'd also add that part of Gonzo's early success came from bidding wars as opposed to actual sales).

At this point, relying too much on the previous work might be risky.

Banking on an established title, I think, would offer as much risk as reward if not more reward. If you present it in a way that is accessible to new audiences while also keeping true to your original, you have the potential to increase your base more than any original work. I feel that this is what Gonzo was hoping to do but went about it not by making the story more accessible or good for a new viewer while keeping the feel of the original for the older fan, but instead pandered with yuri subtexts and drove the plot with idiot balls while alienating their original fans of the series.

Originally Posted by hyl

Weren't some series (like The big O) a big flop in japan, but ended being a succes in the USA/western market?
The big 0 ended up even getting a 2nd season thanks to the western market.

The Big 0 was so successful for Cartoon Network, that they wanted and funded the second season.

[Kamui_X]

Does anyone here have the HONG KONG Blu ray edition of Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence? I'm wondering what the difference is with that versus either the US or Japan edition in terms of picture/sound quality.

Thanks so much.

[Undertaker]

Originally Posted by Katapan

It's not actually doing that great in ratings. It tends to be stuck in the 1.*% range which is lower than the previous show (Kaiji S2) has achieved. With that said, I think the sales are still OK for the sort of show it is - I'm fairly sure the numbers are very close to 3000 even though both figures are under the threshold, and that's OK since the shows on that timeslot bomb more than often in regards to disc sales (while KimiTodo did fine but doesn't really count due to the huge popularity of the manga, Kaiji might just have sold under 500 units). The downside is that Chihayafuru is sold at a lower price than your usual anime to try and draw a larger audience, and it didn't work that well, so the profitability from the BD/DVD sales isn't as consequent as it would normally be.

As for the increase in manga sales, it doesn't seem huge:
vol. 10: 161,373
vol. 14: 171,785 (<- Sept. 13 - 19, just before the anime)
vol. 15: 192,448 (<- 2 weeks ago)

tl;dr - It's not a huge flop but not much of a success either. A second season isn't that likely, but it could still happen, especially if the series were to be adapted into a new support in the future, i.e. a TV drama or a movie. Kaiji 2 probably was pushed by the second live-action movie, same for Kimi ni Todoke 2nd season & its movie - NTV producers seem to be very receptive of these.

Based on those number then S2 does seem unlikely, in that case we probably can expect some sort plot change that give the anime a more logical break.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

One other thing to note: despite this pricing, more than 50% of bluray disks sold in Japan are anime. Which tends to suggest to me that non-otaku Japanese simply don't tend to be collectors of home video material - I imagine the small apartments are part of the equation.

And consequently its (Along with other East Asia country with high population density) brick & mortar video rental service are still around and alive compare to U.S.

Originally Posted by ahelo

But was Kimi ni Todoke and Nodame high in the pre-order sales? If were lucky enough Chihayafuru might at least get 4k in sales.

In the manga front, 800k-900k would already make it into a phenomenon. Even a lot of Jump titles don't sell as much as that. What Chihayafuru is pulling off now (150-200k) is already really good and you can really see the boost from the anime. It might turn into a big hit if it pulls of what Ao no Exorcist did, which is having all its volumes in the weekly ranking every week turning it into one of the highest-earning manga in 2011.

I agree, I forgot that compare to those two, and Nana for the hell of it Chihayafuru wasn't the blockbuster to begin with like those three. (Even though any manga breaking 70k can be considered a hit and success.) If I remeber correct all three are around 500k-600k before any adaption and at it's height, Nana even challenged and beat OP in sales, which only happen in a handful of time in the 14+ years it is running.

[bayoab]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

So they could lower prices without risks, because it would just distribute the same amount of money (all the money otaku have...just like now) with the additional benefit of getting non-insane people as customers too.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's worth noting that at least an anime show or two experimented with selling anime DVDs at greatly reduced costs, IIRC, to see if it would create a worthwhile rise in the number of sales.

And while it did create a spike in sales, it just wasn't enough to compensate for the price differential, IIRC.

You see this for many v1s which get sales spikes but when you calculate the total income generated, you see things like:
X= price, Y = buyers
V1: 2/3X * 3/2Y
V2+: X * Y
In other words, they sell more copies but make about the same profit because it's cheaper. See shows like Persona 4 and Working!

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

The other thing worth mentioning is that one may ask why Japan doesn't order DVDs/BDs from outside of Japan. There's a reason for that - the raws the licensers outside of Japan are sent are lower quality so that the Japanese version is the superior version - may not be such a big difference on BD but on DVD there certainly is.

This isn't true in R1. The R1 companies typically get the same masters.

Originally Posted by Vena

From an US side of sales figures, I wonder if the anime industry makes much of anything off of Hulu, Crunchy, and other streamers, because that is probably one of the few ways for the anime industry to really set a foothold in the US. I can't imagine that DVD/Bluray sales amount to much when people's fate in dubs is lacking and (I don't know if this holds true anymore) but subbing groups provide(d) more quality tied to a speedier delivery.

Streaming makes a fraction of the revenue that DVD sales make.

[Marcus H.]

Temporal Blu-ray + DVD Sales Rankings in Autumn 2011 (first volumes)
*1, 38,703 Persona 4 The Animation
*2, 19,544 Kyoukai Senjou no Horizon
*3, 18,674 Working'!!
*4, *4,077 Tamayura: Hitotose
*5, *3,624 Sekaiichi Hatsukoi 2
*6, *3,421 Maji de Watashi ni Koi Shinasai!
*7, *3,379 Shinryaku!? Ika Musume
*8, *3,199 Maken-Ki!
*9, *2,828 Shakugan no Shana III
10, *2,336 Mirai Nikki
11, *2,101 Ben-To
12, *2,038 C³
13, *1,853 Kimi to Boku.

Out of the rankings
Chihayafuru

Not released yet
Boku wa Tomodachi ga Sukunai (Jan 13)
Guilty Crown (Jan 25)
Mashiroiro Symphony: The Color of Lovers (Jan 25)
Last Exile: Ginyoku no Fam (Jan 25)
Hunter x Hunter (Jan 25)
UN-GO (Jan 27)
Phi Brain: Kami no Puzzle (Jan 27)
gdgd Fairies (Jan 27)
Morita-san wa Mukuchi 2 (Jan 27)
Mobile Suit Gundam AGE (Feb 10)
Fate/Zero (Mar 7)

Source: http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=385291

So it's confirmed. The third season of Shana premiering FOUR YEARS after the second season was the biggest mistake J.C. Staff made.
Persona is raking in the dough, considering that it has been criticized for having too many static scenes.
I think this season is similar to the season when Puella Magi Madoka Magica sucked the fans' pockets dry.

[Ithekro]

That's a massive drop between 3 and 4.

[Marcus H.]

The Big Three's ranking would only change after March 7, when Fate/Zero is released.
I'm really surprised at how much of a powerhouse Working'!! is. Is Working'!! airing at an earlier slot (i.e. not midnight)?