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Old 2013-12-21, 18:52   Link #10261
CBredbeard
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monster View Post
When the Freedom is detecting its multiple targets, aren't those multiple targets also detecting the Freedom and other mobile suits in their respective surroundings?
Not if they don't have radar. In the theater they're fighting in, there'd be emphasis on laser, thermal, and optical sensors. A radar would be all but useless with N-Jammers screwing things up, an expensive paper weight. If the N-Jammer Canceler clears things up well enough to justify giving Freedom a radar-system, it'd be like being the man with one eye in a world that is blind.

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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
The Freedom is clearly doing SOMETHING to target its opponents, but whatever it is it can't be radar. Or chances are that it IS using radar and whoever came up with the N-Jammer concepts didn't put enough research into the concept and didn't realize that it can't be used in such a way in this setting.

Wouldn't be the first time.
We're kind of discussing whether or not the N-Jammer Canceler would negate the disruption from the N-Jammers. That Freedom might have a radar while other suits don't because only Freedom can make a radar work.

I'll watch the series again and see how strong my googlefu is. I distinctly remember reading that the N-Jammer Canceler having that sort of effect.
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Old 2013-12-21, 19:00   Link #10262
monster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
Not if they don't have radar. In the theater they're fighting in, there'd be emphasis on laser, thermal, and optical sensors. A radar would be all but useless with N-Jammers screwing things up, an expensive paper weight. If the N-Jammer Canceler clears things up well enough to justify giving Freedom a radar-system, it'd be like being the man with one eye in a world that is blind.
But there is no indication that the Freedom is detecting them any better. The only difference that we see is that the Freedom is capable of locking on to a target while it has already locked on to another target. That, by itself, is not evidence for the use of radar. That has more to do with the type of targeting system that the Freedom uses.
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Old 2013-12-21, 19:17   Link #10263
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I think its just a different type of targeting program that lets it lock onto more targets that it has guns and then cycle through the targets in a repeated firing pattern.

Something that would be unwise or wasteful to use on regular battery powered suits that needs to be frugal with shots, but not the Freedom which can fire 10 or so volleys in succession without worrying about power consumption.
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Old 2013-12-21, 19:32   Link #10264
monster
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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
I think its just a different type of targeting program that lets it lock onto more targets that it has guns and then cycle through the targets in a repeated firing pattern.

Something that would be unwise or wasteful to use on regular battery powered suits that needs to be frugal with shots, but not the Freedom which can fire 10 or so volleys in succession without worrying about power consumption.
Yes, I think the use of the NJC in a mobile suit all comes down to power, rather than its effect on communication.
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Old 2013-12-21, 23:08   Link #10265
ZeroXSEED
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N-Jammer Canceller effect is too overestimated

In the Blue Frame story, the pilot whose name I forgot need to use his positron cannon POINT BLANK because the target's NJC only go that far (and he need the nuclear reactor pack to go functional to use the cannon)
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Old 2013-12-22, 06:21   Link #10266
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Warships in CE probably use non neutron emission nuclear reactors , that explains why they are not affected
Njammers afftect the range of radars and conventional communication's (note range) , not effectiveness freedom can lock on any target as long has its on its sensors range , other unit's cannot do this thats why Destiny's target system took time to target due to freedom being away
Since most MS fights are close mid ranged target systems are not affected in performance due to Njammer interference
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Old 2013-12-22, 12:27   Link #10267
monster
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Originally Posted by Scorpiopt View Post
Njammers afftect the range of radars and conventional communication's (note range) , not effectiveness freedom can lock on any target as long has its on its sensors range , other unit's cannot do this thats why Destiny's target system took time to target due to freedom being away
Why wouldn't the other units be able to do it?
Quote:
Since most MS fights are close mid ranged target systems are not affected in performance due to Njammer interference
Not only are they fighting close-to-mid range, they must be using something other than radio. That's why N-Jammer interference shouldn't normally affect a mobile suit battle.
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Old 2013-12-22, 13:00   Link #10268
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After reading this debate the phrase "necessity is the mother of all invention" comes to mind. Or in this case improvement anyway. As I'd think the introduction of N-Jammers would motivate both ZAFT and EA to improve their radar/laser/thermal tracking/targeting technologies. So as to at the very least minimize the effects on radar & radio based communication.

Which is why the Freedom could do those multi-lock sequences. It was equipped with the latest and greatest in radar/laser/thermal tracking/targeting tech ZAFT could produce at that point.
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Old 2013-12-22, 13:35   Link #10269
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
After reading this debate the phrase "necessity is the mother of all invention" comes to mind. Or in this case improvement anyway. As I'd think the introduction of N-Jammers would motivate both ZAFT and EA to improve their radar/laser/thermal tracking/targeting technologies. So as to at the very least minimize the effects on radar & radio based communication.

Which is why the Freedom could do those multi-lock sequences. It was equipped with the latest and greatest in radar/laser/thermal tracking/targeting tech ZAFT could produce at that point.
The reason why radar interference was introduced into the franchise in the first place was to remove the guided missile as a factor. It's to justify the use of close quarter combat with over-sized machine guns and swords.

If a sensor package, something that could readily become common-place, were able to overcome the jamming effect, suddenly long range missiles are a big deal again.
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Old 2013-12-22, 14:02   Link #10270
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Really and where did you get that? Because it was my understanding that the radar/radio interference was purely an unintended side effect of the N-Jammers primary purpose of stopping nuclear reactions?

Besides if it was intentional why would the Chaos and Blaze Zaku's have guided missiles?
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Old 2013-12-22, 14:28   Link #10271
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
Really and where did you get that? Because it was my understanding that the radar/radio interference was purely an unintended side effect of the N-Jammers primary purpose of stopping nuclear reactions?
When Gundam was first started as an IP, they tried to justify the use of the combat prominent in the setting by creating circumstances in which it wouldn't seem silly. An obvious obstacle to this was the existence of guided missiles, which would make the use of hand-held rifles and beam sabers stupid. In order to prevent combat from devolving into Macross-style massacres, they introduced omni-present radar jamming through M-Particles (other series picked up on this trope, notably Legend of Galactic Heroes which is infamous for it's axe wielding melee-fests and crossbow usage due to explosive particles that can be used to saturate an area with a grenade-sized canister).

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Besides if it was intentional why would the Chaos and Blaze Zaku's have guided missiles?
It's intentional on the part of the writers wanting to create a rational for what the audience is seeing in the first place. Believe it or not, not every IP subscribes to the Rule of Cool and simply leaves it at that. Some actually try to put some thought into the setting.

As for Chaos and Blaze, just because it's a missile, doesn't mean it's radar-guided. Heat-seekers and wire-guided missiles are just two other examples of a way to improve accuracy.

[cut]

Last edited by james0246; 2013-12-23 at 10:34.
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Old 2013-12-22, 15:31   Link #10272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBredbeard View Post
As for Chaos and Blaze, just because it's a missile, doesn't mean it's radar-guided. Heat-seekers and wire-guided missiles are just two other examples of a way to improve accuracy.
And where do you see RADAR guided in the post you quoted? All I said is that the Chaos/Blaze Zaku had guided missiles. You're the one jumped to them being radar guided missiles.

[cut]

The topic at hand is what CE ms/warships use to target other ms/warships do to the limitations imposed on radar/radio waves by N-Jammers. Along with how those methods could be improved.

Last edited by james0246; 2013-12-23 at 10:35.
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Old 2013-12-22, 15:57   Link #10273
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by S.Freedom View Post
And where do you see RADAR guided in the post you quoted? All I said is that the Chaos/Blaze Zaku had guided missiles. You're the one jumped to them being radar guided missiles.
You're being obtuse. Obviously when I said "guided missiles" I meant at long range using radar. That's what we've been talking about for the past couple pages, the interference from the N-Jammers and how it's effected things.

[cut]

Quote:
The topic at hand is what CE ms/warships use to target other ms/warships do to the limitations imposed on radar/radio waves by N-Jammers. Along with how those methods could be improved.
You tried to argue that "well, they should just invent better sensors!" which I replied to by pointing out that that is at odds with the IP and how it's presented in the first place. Making it so that radar actually works in a Gundam series is like taking the Force out of Star Wars.

After I made that point, you seemed to think that I was referring to something within the setting, like there was an in-universe reason for why people use mecha and guns and swords, like it were a personal preference that everyone agreed upon for how they kill one another. Which meant that you completely missed the point I was making, so I elaborated further, drawing comparisons to other series and the lengths writers will go to rationalize the use of equipment the characters are made to depend upon.

[cut]

Last edited by james0246; 2013-12-23 at 10:33. Reason: deleted macross stuff...
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Old 2013-12-22, 16:55   Link #10274
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Well on the thing of guided missiles, they probably have the same kind of operational range as Bits and Funnels and only go so far from the source before they lose connection and stop receiving telemetry data thus stop 'homing'.
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Old 2013-12-22, 17:34   Link #10275
CBredbeard
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Originally Posted by Raso View Post
Well on the thing of guided missiles, they probably have the same kind of operational range as Bits and Funnels and only go so far from the source before they lose connection and stop receiving telemetry data thus stop 'homing'.
Mwu's gun-barrels were wire-guided. The Providence probably used the N-Jammer Canceler to allow radio communication to it's Dragoons. Legend and S.Freedom were said to use a new communication system of an unknown type.

There's probably some confusion on the part of the technical designers in the series. Few of their characters have telepathy to overcome the hurdles the N-Jammers put in place. Wire-guided weapon platforms are cool in an old, but effective sort of way, but that would have been at odds with the "advanced" nature of Providence, Legend, and S. Freedom.

So if they don't have a psycom and psychic powers, how can characters communicate with the DRAGOONs without wires? Well, the answer should have been obvious, but they didn't see it and instead pulled the word "quantum" out of their butts without any further explanation.
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Old 2013-12-22, 18:08   Link #10276
ZeroXSEED
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.....


DRAGOON communication system SPECIFICALLY invented out of the blue to circumvent the effect of N-Jammer by using quantum communication system.

DRAGOON also used to locate N-Jammer in the earth crust, allowing some of them to be removed.
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Old 2013-12-22, 18:20   Link #10277
Rising Dragon
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Source? Because I still don't know where you people are getting this "N-Jammers being removed" thing from.
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Old 2013-12-22, 18:29   Link #10278
ZeroXSEED
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
Source? Because I still don't know where you people are getting this "N-Jammers being removed" thing from.
Gundam wiki

yes, I know it's unreliable, which is why I'll double check using wayback machine on now dead gundamofficial and see if my claim is wrong.

EDIT: Can't find anything about N-jammer being removed, so I concede.
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Last edited by ZeroXSEED; 2013-12-22 at 18:41.
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Old 2013-12-22, 23:33   Link #10279
Yesman
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I thought it was Siegel Clyne, who said that. IIRC, said something about using quantum waves to locate the N-jammers on Earth, after the war is over. I may be wrong, though.
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Old 2013-12-23, 04:34   Link #10280
Raso
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Man I really wonder about the upcoming episodes, several are half clip show half actual show, will they just splice em together without the clips or add on to the series itself.

Hoping for some addons because god knows the last 10 episodes need it so bad.
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