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Old 2013-09-13, 19:13   Link #2881
Rasen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by borisdrakoni View Post
I believe it's implied in a few instances throughout the story, but never stated outright.
I'm not going to take a stance on whether the bow is more or less powerful than the Viralts, but you need better examples.

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First there's the range of the attack. If memory serves, most of the Veda used by the Vanadis (at least the ones we've seen so far) have a limited area of effect, an issue Ellen brought up in Volume 2, whereas Tigre's shot can go at least far enough to blow away any clouds that happen to be overhead.
Range is not an indication of power. Range is really only a function of the different nature of the weapons. Compare the damage a sniper can do, versus the damage a guy with a grenade can do. A sniper can kill someone almost a MILE away. The grenade obviously has less range, but will turn a person and anything else in the area into hamburger.

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The second case would be the fight against Roland. He wasn't having much of an issue pushing back both Ellen and Sophie at once until Tigre's arrow stopped him cold. Though to be fair, for this instance Tigre's shot did have to absorb power from both Ellen and Sophie to be able to do it.
This is where Tigre's bow shines, because it can draw in the power from the Viralts and add it to its power. But let's use a simple numerical example:

Let's say Roland's maximum power is 5. Sophie is 2. Ellen is 2. And for the sake of this example, Tigre is 1.

Now, because while Sophie and Ellen can attack at the same time, they can't actually combine the power of their attacks. Since 5 > 2, by more than 2x, Roland can use half his power, or one hand to stop each of their attacks.

Now Tigre enters the equation. Because his bow absorbs the power from the other attacks, the total power is 2+2+1 = 5. In this example, Tigre's bow is not by itself more powerful than either Viralt, but with their help, can generate an attack that is much greater.

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The third indication comes from the comparative treatment of the bow to the Vanadis by those who are in the know. Monsters at least have more respect for it, and I think up to this point the bow has been the only thing to do serious damage to one.
This is also shaky. It could just be a matter of type of power. For instance, let's say the demons are only weak to demonic/underworld-ish power. Then the Viralts, with their dragon-style power, does not hurt them.

To take an example from horror stories, to kill a vampire, you're supposed to stick a wooden stake through their heart. A wooden stake, by any measure, is far less powerful than an industrial hydraulic press. Yet no one will ever suggest the way to kill Dracula is to shove him in a trash compactor. Or if you're trying to kill a werewolf, only silver will do. That nuke? No such luck, unless it's somehow laced with silver.

Just to restate, I have no stance on whether the bow is more or less powerful than the Viralts. The examples I have chosen are only to illustrate why as indicators of power, the story bits you have chosen are inconclusive at best.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-09-13 at 19:25.
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Old 2013-09-13, 20:12   Link #2882
GetInDaZone222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chad001 View Post
The fact of the matter is; Tigre's environment is entirely unsuited for practicing his bow. During the war he would be too busy, in the small time between the aftermath and the war he was in a country that loathes the bow and was filled with people who would be interested in knowing his secrets. When he was in Zchted, he was on foreign grounds and so he could not just waltz around destroying the countryside willy-nilly. and unlike the Vanadis, the expectations placed on him and his bow are also vastly difference in terms of responsibility, leeway, power and support base, combined with Tigre's relatively passive personality, Tir na Fa's inclination to only talk on her own terms, and how busy he was with work, he wouldn't have been able to practice with the bow even if he wanted to. And on your point about fearing his weapon, he has every right to; you're comparing a set of established cultural weapons with long histories and plenty of public references, national trust, that are also deeply-ingrained as symbols of protection, grouped with support from 6 other wielders who may or may not support/guide each other but will take a portion of the burden regardless vs. a very well hidden secret of a bow, combined with ancient, withheld knowledge, lack of surviving predecessors, no national support, in a country largely suspicious of such weapons (enough to be ingrained within their psyche), not to mention that the bow is largely uncontrollable, fires massive shots, consumes life-force each time, and the first time that Tigre had prolonged contact with the sentience within the weapon, it tried to killed his childhood friend...

Yeah.... if it were me, I'd lock in a vault, switch to a longbow and use that to solve my problems until such a time that I've consolidated my lands and power base (esp. political) enough to be able to safely practice with the bow without fear of international crises every month.
Well of course he cant just go around shooting off full power blasts where he pleases, but attempting to communicate with the Tir Fa na isnt something outrageous. Her will has a lot to offer him besides just power. There is a reason why the bow's past is covered up, figuring out that mystery could hold a lot of meaning. Theres a lot to gain by him simply trying to understand the bow. Although what you said about the bow is true for Tigre, it might not be the case for its previous owners. I doubt his dad would leave him a power that was completely uncontrollable. By the way, there is a lot of mystery behind dragonic tools as well, the main difference is that their past is well known & they have a belief system by the people, thats completely unrelated to the actual weapon(which works by its own will, not by some system people got use to seeing). The bow has a will as well & I cant see how understanding that will could be worse than pretending it isnt there. All these other strange inhuman beings keep attacking him knowing about the bow & its power, so why would he not try to ask the bow why that is happening?
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Old 2013-09-13, 20:25   Link #2883
whsie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
I'm not going to take a stance on whether the bow is more or less powerful than the Viralts, but you need better examples.
I will say this. The bow has been clearly more powerful. Demon, ships, sword, dragons anything, the bow has dealt more damage than the dragonic weapons. Even if you don't buy the bow drawing power from other weapon stuff, it's still a characteristic that the bow has and the others don't.

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This is also shaky. It could just be a matter of type of power. For instance, let's say the demons are only weak to demonic/underworld-ish power. Then the Viralts, with their dragon-style power, does not hurt them.
"Dragonic weapon" is actually a misleading title. According to Ludimira, her weapon is actually designed to combat demons not just dragons. It was stated as much in volume 4 or 5 when Tigre and Ludimira teamed up in Ella's absence. Besidses, in volume 6, both Ella and Ludimira's weapon had a titanic struggle with the dragons. It's not like the weapon itself is a dragon slayer. By comparison, Tigre one-shot the dragon in volume 1.
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Old 2013-09-13, 21:18   Link #2884
Rasen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whsie View Post
I will say this. The bow has been clearly more powerful. Demon, ships, sword, dragons anything, the bow has dealt more damage than the dragonic weapons. Even if you don't buy the bow drawing power from other weapon stuff, it's still a characteristic that the bow has and the others don't.
Demon - well, I've already mentioned the possibility of weaknesses that have less to do with power and more about type. Also, you'll note the demons are still alive and fine. So....eeeehhhhhh to the damage.
Ships - what ship did he shoot?
Swords -what swords did he shoot? And why is he shooting them?
Dragons - What dragons? The first dragon in volume 1, was killed by Ellen alone. The second dragon in volume 1 was killed by the bow + the viralt. The bow has yet to have been used to kill a single dragon by itself. In volume 4, the five dragons were killed by Ellen and Mira.

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"Dragonic weapon" is actually a misleading title. According to Ludimira, her weapon is actually designed to combat demons not just dragons. It was stated as much in volume 4 or 5 when Tigre and Ludimira teamed up in Ella's absence.
It's possible Ludmira is jumped to conclusions.

Quote:
“My predecessor once said that Lavias is called the Hajya no Senkaku[Spear of Evil Death]. It is a weapon to kill [Demons], and one stands before me now.”

“Is that so. Give it a try.”

A smile of ridicule floated to Vodyanoy's face, as if to provoke Ludmira.
Ludmira is extrapolating that "with a name like Evil Death"+"Demons must be evil" = "therefore Lavias must also be a demon-killer."

It seems more telling that Vodyanoy smiles at her speech, so he most likely knows she's wrong.

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Besidses, in volume 6, both Ella and Ludimira's weapon had a titanic struggle with the dragons. It's not like the weapon itself is a dragon slayer. By comparison, Tigre one-shot the dragon in volume 1.
1) I see you've forgotten that Ella's and Mira's dragons were wearing ANTI-magic collars.

2) No one said the weapons were dragon-slayers. Just that they are draconic tools. That could mean anything, including: "made from dragons" or "similar powers to dragons"

3) Like I said, Tigre didn't one-shot anything BY HIMSELF. He borrowed power from Ellen. And the dragon wasn't wearing a fancy anti-magic collar.

I don't know if by itself the bow is more or less powerful than a viralt. But these statements are just wrong.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-09-13 at 22:03.
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Old 2013-09-13, 22:42   Link #2885
Kirihara_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post

3) Like I said, Tigre didn't one-shot anything BY HIMSELF. He borrowed power from Ellen. And the dragon wasn't wearing a fancy anti-magic collar.

I don't know if by itself the bow is more or less powerful than a viralt. But these statements are just wrong.
Isn't it already superior enough? ..so you already forgotten that the said BORROWED power is "one" of the ability of the Bow?
Quote:
Originally Posted by whsie View Post
Even if you don't buy the bow drawing power from other weapon stuff, it's still a characteristic that the bow has and the others don't.
besides when tigre shot an arrow using its power itself alone its already have a power comparable to "ley admos"

and that is why the user of the bow is already precious enough that it cannot compare to any other user's of viralt..
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Old 2013-09-13, 23:13   Link #2886
whsie
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Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Demon - well, I've already mentioned the possibility of weaknesses that have less to do with power and more about type.
And I mentioned that the type argument doesn't hold. Not only have the dragonic tools proven no more effective against dragons compared to demons, the bow has proven to one shot.

Pirate ships in volume 7 (three of them). All sank. A huge giant hole in the middle.
Sword as in Roland's Sword.
Dragon= one shot is one shot.

I've already said that absorbing energy is beside the point. The bow is able to do it and the other dragonic weapons aren't.

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2) No one said the weapons were dragon-slayers. Just that they are draconic tools. That could mean anything, including: "made from dragons" or "similar powers to dragons"

Demon - well, I've already mentioned the possibility of weaknesses that have less to do with power and more about type. Also, you'll note the demons are still alive and fine. So....eeeehhhhhh to the damage.
I'm not suggesting that dragonic weapons are super effective against dragons. As a matter of fact, you were the one who suggested it because of the "affinity" aspect of the weapons vs. dragons and demons. You've referenced it multiple times in your response that it might be because of the type. If you're going to say something like "no one said the weapons were dragon-slayers," then you can't say that it's a possibility as to why the weapons are less effective against demons due to type. After all, if the weapon is not a dragon slayer, then what separates the weapon from being used on a demon vs a dragon? Nothing.

From what I've seen thus far, the weapon isn't more effective against dragons or demons and there certaintly hasn't been any evidence that suggests so (unless you can point them out).

Also, yes, the demons are still alive. But have you noticed the damage done to the demons by the dragonic weapons? Barely a scratch. The bow is at least able to severely injure the demons enough to make them afraid and retreat. The one exception is the demon that Sasha is fighting at the end of volume 7, but that fight is inconclusive and will continue.

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It's possible Ludmira is jumped to conclusions.

Ludmira is extrapolating that "with a name like Evil Death"+"Demons must be evil" = "therefore Lavias must also be a demon-killer."

It seems more telling that Vodyanoy smiles at her speech, so he most likely knows she's wrong.
No, you fool, Ludimira didn't jump to conclusions. Truthfully speaking, I can somewhat see where there is differing opinions in the other areas, but not here. I've read that section several times and the meaning is very clear to me.

It was told to her by the previous wielder who happens to be her mother. Ludimira isn't playing semantics here. It was clear as daylight. The purpose of the weapon is to defeat demons (and the "frog" in front her was clearly a demon). The "demon" in this text actually refers to demons. If we're getting into semantics here, there is nothing here to argue.

And the demon's response can be interpreted as to exactly why the bow is superior. The demon could care less about the spear while he showed genuine fear against the bow. Furthermore, it's clear from the later conversations (Gallard conversation about when the next user of the Sword will come up) that Roland's Sword and Tigre's Bow are worth far more attention than the Dragonic Weapons.

EDIT: For clarification sake, I've added the translation of the excerpt you're looking for. In my hand, I have two separate sources (one of which is the publisher).

"The Lavias in my hand is known as the 'Spear of Evil Death.' According to the previous generation's Vanadis, this weapon is used to combat demons. And right now, there is a demon standing in front of me."

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3) Like I said, Tigre didn't one-shot anything BY HIMSELF. He borrowed power from Ellen. And the dragon wasn't wearing a fancy anti-magic collar.

I don't know if by itself the bow is more or less powerful than a viralt. But these statements are just wrong.
There is nothing "wrong" here. You're simply disagreeing with the fact a weapon compounding the power of others is something that has to be considered in the ability of the weapon because other weapons aren't able to. It's a specific characteristic that differentiates one weapon from another.

Even if you don't buy this "compounding" argument, the fact of the matter is that the full potential of the bow is suggested to be far greater. By itself, it has been shown in flashback to nuke a city and in the present, literally blow a giant cavern out into the sky (in the shape of a Black Dragon). By comparison, we've seen the Spear and Sword go at each other at full power and it didn't generate remotely the destructive power of the sacred cavern instance.

Last edited by whsie; 2013-09-13 at 23:51. Reason: Added in translation of the text.
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Old 2013-09-14, 00:00   Link #2887
Rasen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dxd22 View Post
Isn't it already superior enough? ..so you already forgotten that the said BORROWED power is "one" of the ability of the Bow?
First, I don't dispute that borrowing power is a wonderful ability. But since people have decided to argue about whether the Bow is MORE powerful than a Viralt, that's where the arguments become shaky.

If I want to get to the shopping mall, I "borrow" the power of a car. If I get in a tug-of-war match with the car, I will lose. Badly. That sucker has 250 horsepower, and I do not.

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besides when tigre shot an arrow using its power itself alone its already have a power comparable to "ley admos"
Does it? I think it might vary, because when he fired the bow at Roland to demonstrate that he also had a special weapon, the destruction was less than impressive.

On the other hand, the time SOMETHING fired off into the sky when Batran died, that was very impressive. Maybe that's the level of power he'll be able to achieve when he masters the bow. Who knows.

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and that is why the user of the bow is already precious enough that it cannot compare to any other user's of viralt..
As that statement came from the demons, you might consider that demons may care about something other than raw power. Again, this might go to the NATURE of the power. If the bow is something associated with Tir Na Fa, it may hold significance to them in another way.

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Originally Posted by whsie View Post
And I mentioned that the type argument doesn't hold. Not only have the dragonic tools prove no more effective against dragons compared to demons, the bow has proven to one shot.
I see you are once again ignoring that Ellen and Mira ALSO one-shot dragons, WITHOUT needing to borrow power from something else.

This is not saying that Tigre could not, but since he has yet to do so, this argument as a measure of POWER is invalid.

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Pirate ships in volume 7 (three of them). All sank. A huge giant hole in the middle.
Really? Cool, I'll have to wait for the translation though.

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Sword as in Roland's Sword.
The sword was fine, though. And he had to borrow the power of TWO Vanadis.

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Dragon= one shot is one shot.

I've already said that absorbing energy is beside the point. The bow is able to do it and the other dragonic weapons aren't.
No, it's exactly the point, if the point is to argue which is MORE powerful. This isn't a question of which is more versatile.

And again, Ellen and Mira both one-shot dragons as well, withOUT borrowing power. IF Tigre can't one-shot a dragon without borrowing power, then the bow is weaker than a viralt. (unless the Viralts do more damage against dragons)

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I'm not suggesting that dragonic weapons are super effective against dragons. As a matter of fact, you were the one who suggested it because of the "affinity" aspect of the weapons vs. dragons and demons. You've referenced it multiple times in your response that it might be because of the type. If you're going to say something like "no one said the weapons were dragon-slayers," then you can't say that it's a possibility as to why the weapons are less effective against demons due to type. After all, if the weapon is not a dragon slayer, then what separates the weapon from being used on a demon vs a dragon? Nothing.
See my silver bullet vs tactical nuke weapon for slaying werewolves argument. Sometimes, the dang thing just has a weakness to something specific. It's not about power.

Again, I'm not saying that this MUST be the case. But I am making the point that just because something seems to be more effective against a specific enemy, is no proof of RELATIVE power.

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From what I've seen thus far, the weapon isn't more effective against dragons or demons and there certaintly hasn't been any evidence that suggests so (unless you can point them out).
From what we've seen so far, we haven't seen the bow do ANYTHING to either demons or dragons by ITSELF. For all we know, the black arrow bounces off dragons when it isn't borrowing power from a Viralt. (I doubt it, but the point is he has yet to kill a dragon without borrowing power)

The same could almost be said for the demons, since he hasn't managed to hit one yet WITHOUT power from a viralt. EXCEPT that the demons have expressed some concern about the bow, so it's a safe bet it has SOME effect on them.

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Also, yes, the demons are still alive. But have you noticed the damage done to the demons by the dragonic weapons?
What damage? Vodyanoy may have lost an arm and was blown away in vol.4, but then he reappears later just fine. You may want to consider demons don't care about physical damage.

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No, you fool, Ludimira didn't jump to conclusions. Truthfully speaking, I can somewhat see where there is differing opinions in the other areas, but not here. I've read that section several times and the meaning is very clear to me.

It was told to her by the previous wielder who happens to be her mother. Ludimira isn't playing semantics here. It was clear as daylight. The purpose of the weapon is to defeat demons (and the "frog" in front her was clearly a demon). The "demon" in this text actually refers to demons. If we're getting into semantics here, there is nothing here to argue.
Personal attacks? Classy.

I'm arguing based the translations I have seen. If you have different information, by all means, provide it.

Quote:
My predecessor once said that Lavias is called the Hajya no Senkaku[Spear of Evil Death]. It is a weapon to kill [Demons], and one stands before me now.”
Unless the Japanese text reveals more , all I see is that her mother told her the name of the spear. After that, it's just Ludmira's guessing. Unless there is proof Ludmira's mother fought demons?

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And the demon's response can be interpreted as to exactly why the bow is superior. The demon could care less about the spear while he showed genuine fear against the bow.
You're contradicting yourself. First you say that Ludmira's mother is correct. Then you're saying that she's wrong. (Because Voydanoy could care less about the spear)

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Furthermore, it's clear from the later conversations (Gallard conversation about when the next user of the Sword will come up) that Roland's Sword and Tigre's Bow are worth far more attention than the Dragonic Weapons.
While this is true, this has no reflection on the relative POWER of the weapons. For all we know, the Sword and the Bow are demonic weapons, in the same way that the Viralts are draconic weapons.

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There is nothing "wrong" here. You're simply disagreeing with the fact a weapon compounding the power of others is something that has to be considered in the ability of the weapon because other weapons aren't able to. It's a specific characteristic that differentiates one weapon from another.
1. There's no proof it "compounds" the power. It might, or it might just add. There is a difference.

2. It's a nifty ability that makes it special, sure. But that's a DIFFERENT argument than if it's more POWERFUL.

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Even if you don't buy this "compounding" argument, the fact of the matter is that the full potential of the bow is suggested to be far greater. By itself, it has been shown in flashback to nuke a city
When did it do that?

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and in the present, literally blow a giant cavern out into the sky (in the shape of a Black Dragon).

It blew a path to the surface

By comparison, we've seen the Spear and Sword go at each other at full power and it didn't generate remotely the destructive power of the sacred cavern instance.
A small cavern. The book describes the hole as the size of a small house. In those medieval times, a small house is what, a hut?

If we look at the manga (which may be inaccurate) when Ellen uses Arifal, a bronze dragon is also about the size of a small house. Given that she basically wiped it off the face of the earth, plus the cut to the earth itself, and the damage seems comparable.

And again, I point to the sniper rifle vs. grenade comparison in terms of power. Just because something can travel further doesn't mean it's more powerful.

Quote:
EDIT: For clarification sake, I've added the translation of the excerpt you're looking for. In my hand, I have two separate sources (one of which is the publisher).

"The Lavias in my hand is known as the 'Spear of Evil Death.' According to the previous generation's Vanadis, this weapon is used to combat demons. And right now, there is a demon standing in front of me."
That's interesting. And a bold claim that it comes from the publisher. The quote I had came from the Baka-tsuki translation. Is yours done by yourself from the Japanese? Please feel free to post the original Japanese, and I'll see if I agree.

More to the point, if we assume this is correct, then it really does lend more weight to the argument that the reason the demons care about the bow and sword more than the Viralts is because of something OTHER than the damage output. The demons are basically saying "Weapons used to kill us? Pffft, we don't care about those."

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-09-14 at 00:14.
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Old 2013-09-14, 00:02   Link #2888
Waxman
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I supose this needs to be pointed out but the viralts although powerfull individually were given to the seven wifes of the first king, is my understanding that his wish was to the vanadis to fight together covering for each other weakness and protecting the king while the bow and durandal were for individual warriors (until some source says other thing) hence diferences in raw power are to be espected.
Well that was only my uneducated opinion.
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Old 2013-09-14, 00:16   Link #2889
chad001
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Originally Posted by GetInDaZone222 View Post
Well of course he cant just go around shooting off full power blasts where he pleases, but attempting to communicate with the Tir Fa na isnt something outrageous. Her will has a lot to offer him besides just power. There is a reason why the bow's past is covered up, figuring out that mystery could hold a lot of meaning. Theres a lot to gain by him simply trying to understand the bow. Although what you said about the bow is true for Tigre, it might not be the case for its previous owners. I doubt his dad would leave him a power that was completely uncontrollable. By the way, there is a lot of mystery behind dragonic tools as well, the main difference is that their past is well known & they have a belief system by the people, thats completely unrelated to the actual weapon(which works by its own will, not by some system people got use to seeing). The bow has a will as well & I cant see how understanding that will could be worse than pretending it isnt there. All these other strange inhuman beings keep attacking him knowing about the bow & its power, so why would he not try to ask the bow why that is happening?
Because the key words here are 'belief system'. Meaning that there are people that believe in these systems. Meaning that on the odd chance that Tigre isn't utterly repulsed by the idea of communicating with a potentially hostile individual, that has threatened his friend, while in the middle of a conflict... there's also other people's views on its usage. The immediate political fallout and subsequent issues brought up by the bow would be detrimental to Tigre. and the scale of Tir na Fa's actions (which tend to flair towards the dramatic) make it difficult to communicate with her innocuously, adding on the fact that her whimsical aspects and generally cutthroat ideals make it difficult to communicate, especially when he can't find time to relax/sleep let alone try to talk with a bow. And going back to your original point, just because someone doesn't communicate with someone else does not mean that they fear the other person; preferring to use one's time constructively to plan, or rest, rather than talking with a person that they may dislike, offers more to his current situation than the powers or information Tir na Fa might consider offering him (that, to be honest, he's probably not ready to use anyways).
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Old 2013-09-14, 01:14   Link #2890
GetInDaZone222
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Originally Posted by chad001 View Post
Because the key words here are 'belief system'. Meaning that there are people that believe in these systems. Meaning that on the odd chance that Tigre isn't utterly repulsed by the idea of communicating with a potentially hostile individual, that has threatened his friend, while in the middle of a conflict... there's also other people's views on its usage. The immediate political fallout and subsequent issues brought up by the bow would be detrimental to Tigre. and the scale of Tir na Fa's actions (which tend to flair towards the dramatic) make it difficult to communicate with her innocuously, adding on the fact that her whimsical aspects and generally cutthroat ideals make it difficult to communicate, especially when he can't find time to relax/sleep let alone try to talk with a bow. And going back to your original point, just because someone doesn't communicate with someone else does not mean that they fear the other person; preferring to use one's time constructively to plan, or rest, rather than talking with a person that they may dislike, offers more to his current situation than the powers or information Tir na Fa might consider offering him (that, to be honest, he's probably not ready to use anyways).
I never said in my "original point" that because he doesnt communicate with her he fears her. Its true that he has said multiple times he fears her power and it true that he doesnt communicate with her, but i didnt connect those two in that fashion. Yeah Tir Fa Na has an aggresive dark personality and if i wasnt the wielder of her will, i might cower away from her like you said but its a different story for him. Tigre isn't a king or something dude lol. You make it seem like he has 0 time whatsoever which is completely not true. Hes been living in Ellen's country for half a year(maybe longer i dont feel like looking it up) and hes stated hes had free time to hunt and also to go out with Ellen to see the city. Tir Fa Na definitely has some type of knowledge that could he useful to him, even if only why abnormal monsters know of the bow's power or why they would want to attack him. Just to be clear though, my original point wasnt about what makes it difficult for him to communicate with her, it was why he doesnt attempt to at all. He uses her for her power already, choosing not to use her for her knowledge is a big loss.
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Old 2013-09-14, 01:50   Link #2891
Leonardunitylim
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Tigre's bow did
Spoiler for Spoiler:

^ this is something which any vanadis of any era will not be able to achieve.
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To the end of time...i will stay by you...Ti...gr..e
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Old 2013-09-14, 02:19   Link #2892
Rasen
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Originally Posted by Leonardunitylim View Post
Tigre's bow did
Spoiler for Spoiler:

^ this is something which any vanadis of any era will not be able to achieve.
Yes, someone did mention that. I'm reserving judgement on this point until it gets translated.

That would be a pretty effective measure of power though, as it is (several) non-supernatural targets with no special defense, though I am curious as to the size of the holes.

Not saying they're wrong, but I don't feel like taking someone else's word for it.

Last edited by Rasen; 2013-09-14 at 02:45.
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Old 2013-09-14, 02:19   Link #2893
Ken Sanders
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As expected of our Tigre; the "King of the Magic Bullet"!!

His feats will put the past predecessors and current Vanadis to shame.

He will be known as the greatest archer in history!!
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Old 2013-09-14, 08:27   Link #2894
kampfer91
Master Eugenist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
But he can 't utilize such powerful shot and still standing without the help of a Vanadis . Emotion breakdown is not a case here .

Who help him this time ? Olga or Sophia ?
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Old 2013-09-14, 15:31   Link #2895
Leonardunitylim
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Singapore
Quote:
Originally Posted by kampfer91 View Post
But he can 't utilize such powerful shot and still standing without the help of a Vanadis . Emotion breakdown is not a case here .

Who help him this time ? Olga or Sophia ?
Spoiler for Spoiler:
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Old 2013-09-14, 15:33   Link #2896
Leonardunitylim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rasen View Post
Yes, someone did mention that. I'm reserving judgement on this point until it gets translated.

That would be a pretty effective measure of power though, as it is (several) non-supernatural targets with no special defense, though I am curious as to the size of the holes.

Not saying they're wrong, but I don't feel like taking someone else's word for it.
Size of the holes are not stated i believe =.= i may be wrong though. But, if there is an estimation, it would be about the size of the hole made to the castle door in vol 2?
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Old 2013-09-14, 17:17   Link #2897
Breimoon
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Join Date: May 2012
i think it would be bigger since it joined 2vanadis powers.
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Old 2013-09-14, 19:49   Link #2898
kampfer91
Master Eugenist
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
So the more vanadis , the powerful the shot can become .

But there must be a limit in power that this bow can unleash .

I guess that will be in the final battle in which Tigre must push his limit .
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Old 2013-09-14, 20:02   Link #2899
darkofficer
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: hell
if tigre pushes his limit he can die, that what happened to the first blackbow user
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Old 2013-09-14, 20:05   Link #2900
setsuna86
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by darkofficer View Post
if tigre pushes his limit he can die, that what happened to the first blackbow user
All that to simply say that the power of the black bow is too much for a human.
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