GATE - Episode 22 Discussion / Poll

[coded321]

do you guys think tyuule is justified in her actions? while zorzal does deserve a slow, painful death, it was ultimately her manipulations and actions that led to this entire situation.

[Brother Coa]

Revenge is fine as long as innocent people are not suffering from it.
The moment they do the revenge starts getting out of control.

Tyuule could have killed Zorzal any time she could. But no.... She want entire population of his Empire to suffer ( which is hundreds of thousands innocent people, many even not part of the Empire ). In that moment her revenge became unjustified.

[BWTraveller]

Zolzal failing to realize the danger isn't that surprising. He's a halfwit who's learned a few tricks, enough that combined with his low intelligence (low for politics that is) he became a poor target. He's also more delusional than any CNB, and he has an intelligent political veteran constantly at his side who's been near him long enough to understand how he ticks and how he can be manipulated, and it never occurred to him that after tricking her into going from queen to sex slave she might not be so trustworthy. That's one of his worst mistakes. It shouldn't take so much thought to realize that she'd make a bad person to use as his right hand like this. After all, if she's as loyal as he seems to think she'd have to have been incredibly thoroughly deceived, and a person who's been deceived to that point doesn't seem like a good choice.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Zolzal failing to realize the danger isn't that surprising. He's a halfwit who's learned a few tricks, enough that combined with his low intelligence (low for politics that is) he became a poor target. He's also more delusional than any CNB, and he has an intelligent political veteran constantly at his side who's been near him long enough to understand how he ticks and how he can be manipulated, and it never occurred to him that after tricking her into going from queen to sex slave she might not be so trustworthy. That's one of his worst mistakes. It shouldn't take so much thought to realize that she'd make a bad person to use as his right hand like this. After all, if she's as loyal as he seems to think she'd have to have been incredibly thoroughly deceived, and a person who's been deceived to that point doesn't seem like a good choice.

She's convinced him that he tamed her with his virile manhood. Even if the anemic intelligent part of his brain were to start speaking up about the shady position she's putting him into, his massive ego would slap it down and tell it to go back to thinking up new sexual positions. She's been putting thoughts in his head and convincing him they were his own for so long that he sees her as an extension of his will. She's probably the one person in the capital that he thinks he can trust. Why else would he have his f***slave running around issuing his orders? He's beyond hope at this point.

[rladls2121]

Even some of the Empire soldiers are doubting.
But if they don't follow the orders, their family lives will be at stake.
To die by enemy hands or to die by their own superiors lawful execution, that's the question.

SDF is different though but, even if they want to end things peacefully, they are still forced to fight because their people and some of their friends from the Empire are in danger.
To protect, they have to fight after all, and when they fight, there's some casualties no matter what.
Casualties not from the SDF but from its enemy of course.

I guess even modern weapons cannot lessen the enemy casualty as well even though its technologies are many times advanced than in the Special Region.
No, because it is more advanced, the weapons multiple times more deadly than harmless.

[FlareKnight]

Did we really have the same darn ending as last week ? Really show? (Ep21) "Begin the Operation." (Ep22) "No, really we're going to begin the operation." If episode 23 also ends with them 'beginning' the operation I throw up my hands.

Anyways not a bad episode for Lelei. Some very cute moments for her. Can blush with the best of them . Feel for her that all this nonsense has prevented her from getting her deserved accolades even if her peers accept her work.

Time to go kick Zolzal's rear end. I mean all the nonsense he's done is one thing.....but getting in Lelei's way is unacceptable .

In the end Tyuule needs to die just as much as Zolzal. That guy is an idiot and scum, but she's as bad if not worse. She could easily kill that guy, but she wants to punish an entire country and all the innocent people living there. Her desire for revenge is so bloated that she needs to go down, hard.

I do wonder about them likely putting Pina on top of the country though....I mean nice enough person but not sure about putting her in that position. In the end she was incredibly naive about all this. The brother that fled was the smart one. GTFO while he had the chance! That Pina thought she could reason with Zolzal is her biggest error so far.

Originally Posted by rladls2121

Even some of the Empire soldiers are doubting.
But if they don't follow the orders, their family lives will be at stake.
To die by enemy hands or to die by their own superiors lawful execution, that's the question.

SDF is different though but, even if they want to end things peacefully, they are still forced to fight because their people and some of their friends from the Empire are in danger.
To protect, they have to fight after all, and when they fight, there's some casualties no matter what.
Casualties not from the SDF but from its enemy of course.

I guess even modern weapons cannot lessen the enemy casualty as well even though its technologies are many times advanced than in the Special Region.
No, because it is more advanced, the weapons multiple times more deadly than harmless.

I'm not so sure. Yeah, we have more dangerous weapons but we do have less dangerous ones too. If they really wanted to end this peacefully. Have all the soldiers leave their guns and go in there with tasers, bean bag guns, flash bangs, and gas. There are non-lethal options. With the amount of time since they've come in contact with this other world, there probably should have been more steps taken to incorporate less lethal armaments and tactics into their forces. In order to secure the Jade Palace and get everyone out....you really only need so much force.

But then we can't get the drama of seeing them slaughter the Empire's army. Much more impactful to have a mountain of corpses than a bunch of people knocked out or stunned.

[DemonneoPT]

They also skipped Lelei's thesis presentation in the novel too? I was expecting to see some WTF reaction from the audience..lol.
I guess next episode will be "21 century FUCK YEAH" vs medieval soldier peasants xD

[rladls2121]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

But then we can't get the drama of seeing them slaughter the Empire's army. Much more impactful to have a mountain of corpses than a bunch of people knocked out or stunned.

Some Empire soldiers are going to regret they are ever born in their own country.

But really, is a "Mountain of corpses" climax scene the best answer?

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by rladls2121

Some Empire soldiers are going to regret they are ever born in their own country.

They are probably regretting it now, but for those brief moments before death they really are going to regret it . This is just going to be silly (in a horrific sense). It's like sending the US military to go invade Ancient Greece....oh boy. This is going to be something.

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by FlareKnight

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In some respects she is naive. However, I think she knew the risks. Her loyalty to her people, her father, and her knights are what kept her here. She was about to flee to her knights when she was caught. Her mistake was believing her brother would let her go.

In the end, she will make a better leader because of her experience with this and her desire to help her people. Besides, her *future* husband (Itami?) might help her out.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

In the end Tyuule needs to die just as much as Zolzal. That guy is an idiot and scum, but she's as bad if not worse. She could easily kill that guy, but she wants to punish an entire country and all the innocent people living there. Her desire for revenge is so bloated that she needs to go down, hard.

Not that bloated. Zorzal is a particularly bad example, but he's hardly the only rapist in the Empire, let alone the only conqueror. The whole damn country lives off conquest. And even Pina, for all that she's presented as a good girl, threatened genocide on the the crippled king's country because she wasn't having her way. I don't blame her for wanting the whole thing to go down.

[Yan3242]

The "master degree" magic presentation is not as grandeur as i though, when i read the novel summary in novel thread, i'am not expecting a wood presentation desk in large tent like structure.

I dont know about the assassin but, i dont think executing a melee assassination in a room full with magic user is a good idea , even if you kill your target you'll just end up getting hail by a salvo of magic missile (not counting a semi war goddess is also present in the room ).

If i were the assassin i just use bow with poison arrow and stay near a window or exit door so i can haul my ass after i shoot my target, even that is still a pain in the ass though, with town full of bazillion type of magic user.

i chuckled a little when tyuule said there is only 300 of them, do you sparta?

Oh zorzal the moment you do that to pina, you have actived sdf and itami trap card in full effect, enjoy your throne while it last zorzal, you will not be missed.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Not that bloated. Zorzal is a particularly bad example, but he's hardly the only rapist in the Empire, let alone the only conqueror. The whole damn country lives off conquest. And even Pina, for all that she's presented as a good girl, threatened genocide on the the crippled king's country because she wasn't having her way. I don't blame her for wanting the whole thing to go down.

You might not, but I sure as heck do. There are major issues with that country, but frankly every country has a lot of bad elements to them. Doesn't give her the excuse of burning the whole thing down and getting everyone killed in the process. How many slaves or innocent people are going to die for her ego? There's no evidence she cares what others are doing in this country. She got hurt so everyone has to die.

So yeah, she needs to go down and go down hard. The one comfort is that while major changes are bound to happen in the Empire, it's not going to vanish in its entirety like she might hope.

[Nachtwandler]

To bad the won't see last 2 arcs unless they make S3. As I heard, arc from the 4th vol. of the novels is in fact the second part of this arc.

[coded321]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

In the end Tyuule needs to die just as much as Zolzal. That guy is an idiot and scum, but she's as bad if not worse. She could easily kill that guy, but she wants to punish an entire country and all the innocent people living there. Her desire for revenge is so bloated that she needs to go down, hard.

Can you really say that her need for revenge is bloated? her kingdom was attacked and destroyed because zorzal wanted to make sex slaves out of them. those who weren't made into slaves were killed outright, and even those who escaped weren't better off. and after all that, her people believed she had betrayed them to save her own skin. seriously she is one of the most tragic characters i've even seen, in any series. even though she could have killed zorzal a long time ago, that's not enough for her. like how zorzal destroyed her kingdom, now she's manipulating him into destroying his own. an eye for an eye right? she has nothing to lose.

[thundrakkon]

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Originally Posted by coded321

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As soon as her plans involved innocent people, all sympathy for her is gone. Yes, her revenge is bloated for targeting people who were not involved in the first place. She is no better than modern day terrorists.

[Dysprosium]

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

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Originally Posted by coded321

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As soon as her plans involved innocent people, all sympathy for her is gone. Yes, her revenge is bloated for targeting people who were not involved in the first place. She is no better than modern day terrorists.

This.

The end doesn't justify the means.

I do hope she gets her just desserts later on.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

even Pina, for all that she's presented as a good girl, threatened genocide on the the crippled king's country because she wasn't having her way. I don't blame her for wanting the whole thing to go down.

Just when did Pina do this? I honestly don't remember her ever saying anything of the sort.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Not that bloated. Zorzal is a particularly bad example, but he's hardly the only rapist in the Empire, let alone the only conqueror. The whole damn country lives off conquest. And even Pina, for all that she's presented as a good girl, threatened genocide on the the crippled king's country because she wasn't having her way. I don't blame her for wanting the whole thing to go down.

This.

Tyuule's entire race was raped, enslaved, and suffered a genocide.
Led by a madman, but the soldiers enjoyed the act.
And the few survivors were manipulated and deceived to place the blame on their own queen.
The enslaved have been treated as subhuman from the rest of the Empire until handful found a safe haven at the House of Formal, thanks to the generosity of Myui's father, Lord Formal.

Pina is still a royalty of the Empire, it's hard to say Tyuule's wrath isn't warranted.

Tyuule must be stopped, sure, as her position is that of an antagonist.
But I don't think her revenge is "bloated", it's simply antagonized.
Her hate is understandable. Unfortunately she's too far gone to be saved.

[Brother Coa]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Just when did Pina do this? I honestly don't remember her ever saying anything of the sort.

In anime no, but in manga the entire scene was somewhat different.

And I agree with the rest of you, Empire is right now nothing more but a country of selfish dictator and heartless people who are prosecuting and hurting others to suit their own needs.

This is why JSDF was sent to liberate this oppressed people, and to introduce them to new way of life - the way of freedom and democracy.