(L) Dragon Ball Super

[MAX_COLA_POWER!]

I'm surprised people are still mentioning DBGT since it's basically considered the taboo topic for most DB fans.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by MAX_COLA_POWER!

I'm surprised people are still mentioning DBGT since it's basically considered the taboo topic for most DB fans.

Sure it sucks, but when has that ever stopped people? Look at how much attention SAO gets.

[MAX_COLA_POWER!]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Sure it sucks, but when has that ever stopped people? Look at how much attention SAO gets.

I think you just set off a chain reaction there ken^^;;. I'll notify your next of kin.

[LuckyCat]

Originally Posted by MAX_COLA_POWER!

I'm surprised people are still mentioning DBGT since it's basically considered the taboo topic for most DB fans.

It's not like I'm a fan of it; more the opposite. But I can't deny it exists and still gives Toei decent merc and video game sales. Dragon Ball has a huge fan base, and there are fans who don't care about story and just like MUSCLES and EXPLOSIONS. DBGT is fine for those fans.

What's funny is when people forget stories explored in depth in GT and say things like "I miss Goku as a kid, I wish they'd show more of that." Maybe there's something in GT for those people too.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by LuckyCat

You're describing DBGT. They've already done that, and it didn't work. Toriyama has stated in interviews for BoG that he prefers the era where all his main creations aren't too old.

They might get older within Super though, we'll see!

When did I describe GT? The fact that Pan is in it and Trunks and Goten are older was why GT didn't work? I thought it's because the show was garbage.

Originally Posted by GDB

If Goku doesn't do anything but train after her birthday party (assuming the timeline remains the same as Battle of Gods, otherwise they're just shifting everything up a few years), then he wouldn't have visited for 5 years. While he'd have spent some time with Vegeta, he wouldn't have seen anyone else.

I get that, but I don't see them carefully navigating the plot barriers they set up for themselves in that situation as you describe...

Originally Posted by GDB

I don't really see it as a step back. He accepted the situation as it was and is. But he still wants to be better, even if he knows it isn't likely.

They just went too far in the Buu saga, in my opinion. Vegeta didn't need to make such a definitive claim that Goku is better than him. Don't get me wrong, admitting Goku's superiority was key, but it was a very "You're number 1 forever and I'm number 2 I guess, I admit it" way of saying things.

He could have had a more mature outlook about it and realized how his royal bloodline and pride aren't as important as he thought, and then pair that with his reflections on what makes Goku great. Then it would make more sense for him to subsequently aspire to reach those heights in his own way, and discard his previous notions of inherent superiority by birth right, which had been blatantly disproven to him. Instead it was more of a "what can I do, Goku's better..."

Which kinda messes up Vegeta's character when you decide you want him to keep training and trying hard. So yeah, I definitely see it as a soft retcon in his attitudes. I'm honestly surprised you think otherwise.

[Dragonria]

Has someone posted this?

7/19: Episode 3: The Recurring Dream: Where is it?! The search for Super Saiyan God!
7/26: No episode
8/2: Episode 4: Aiming for the Dragon Balls! The Pilaf Gang's Strategy!
8/9: Episode 5: Showdown on Planet Kaiō! Gokū VS the Destruction God Beerus.

[ninjastarforcex]

i liked GT until ssj4 vs baby
after super 17 it becomes boring
maybe because baby arc of GT have this adventure-vibe or something like that

[LuckyCat]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

When did I describe GT? The fact that Pan is in it and Trunks and Goten are older was why GT didn't work? I thought it's because the show was garbage.

An era where Trunks and Pan have character focus 5 years from End of Z. That's a major part of what GT's premise is. Clearly you like GT's premise but not it's execution.

The point is, that material has been covered. Why go back to those stories when there are areas in the Z universe that haven't been explored at all?

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by LuckyCat

An era where Trunks and Pan have character focus 5 years from End of Z. That's a major part of what GT's premise is. Clearly you like GT's premise but not it's execution.

The point is, that material has been covered. Why go back to those stories when there are areas in the Z universe that haven't been explored at all?

The annoying thing is, Pan had the potential to be the first real female Saiyan with a relevant role in the series. At the end of the manga, when she's two, Goku explicitly mentions how she has this incredible latent potential. So GT was all the more annoying, since it reduced her to a near useless whiny brat. And Super seems to just being dodging the matter altogether. Which is really frustrating. The only good Pan I can recall is the Dragonball Multiverse one, and that's just a fan comic.

[MAX_COLA_POWER!]

In before Toei didn't wanna make her a Super Saiyan because they feared the updraft would make her shirt lift too much.

[kk2extreme]

Originally Posted by MAX_COLA_POWER!

In before Toei didn't wanna make her a Super Saiyan because they feared the updraft would make her shirt lift too much.

Wear Pants?

[Myssa Rei]

Wasn't GT before both Heroes and Xenoverse/Online? Because I do recall it was only in the latter two where the concept of having a female SSJ explored primarily because there were actual DESIGNS to work with?

Of course, the latter also introduced the concept of SSJ 4 Broly, of all things, so...

[Kazu-kun]

Yeah, I too would like a female ssj. It would be a pretty nice change of pace. It's probably never going to happen though.

[MAX_COLA_POWER!]

Yeah Dragon Ball Heroes and Xenoverse are the only places to find female SSJs.

[Myssa Rei]

Not only female SSJs, female SSJ3s. For reference:

YouTube

https://youtu.be/UHsPGrhKIRs

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

I don't see how this matters in Dragonball Super though, as Pan hasn't even been born yet.

[LuckyCat]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

The annoying thing is, Pan had the potential to be the first real female Saiyan with a relevant role in the series. At the end of the manga, when she's two, Goku explicitly mentions how she has this incredible latent potential. So GT was all the more annoying, since it reduced her to a near useless whiny brat. And Super seems to just being dodging the matter altogether. Which is really frustrating. The only good Pan I can recall is the Dragonball Multiverse one, and that's just a fan comic.

The only time Pan appears in the manga, she's 4. Anyway, the potential is still there! Remember, this is a long-running series, so it would make more sense to start off at a time more recognizable to modern Kai-exposed audiences, leaving time to move to the future if they want to.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by LuckyCat

An era where Trunks and Pan have character focus 5 years from End of Z. That's a major part of what GT's premise is. Clearly you like GT's premise but not it's execution.

The point is, that material has been covered. Why go back to those stories when there are areas in the Z universe that haven't been explored at all?

Let me give you an analogy. Say a teacher is giving her students lessons on the history of Asia. She accidentally buys the wrong text book on the subject written by a well known hack who gets all of the details wrong and is just generally an inaccurate abomination compared to what should have been taught.

Your argument would be, her execution sucked, but hey, too late!!! Already been done. The kids will have to make due with an inaccurate Asia. Can't go back and try again.

Don't you see the... downright illogicality of such a viewpoint?

[RDNexus]

Third week going and I've already learned to wait for DragonTeam's subs, the others are crap...

[LuckyCat]

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

Let me give you an analogy. Say a teacher is giving her students lessons on the history of Asia. She accidentally buys the wrong text book on the subject written by a well known hack who gets all of the details wrong and is just generally an inaccurate abomination compared to what should have been taught

No, because the analogy doesn't follow this situation. A history lesson of Asia is based on a set of objective and verifiable facts. Here, we have subjective material produced by the same hacks (Toei) who have a little more help from Toriyama this time. (Toriyama did to character design for DBGT).

As much as I dislike GT, I have to acknowledge Toei hasn't thrown it away completely. They keep it alive because it does have a fan base with money. Will they retcon GT in the future? Gosh, I hope so! But with the material already covered with a purchasable product available, Toei has an easy excuse not to.

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by LuckyCat

No, because the analogy doesn't follow this situation. A history lesson of Asia is based on a set of objective and verifiable facts. Here, we have subjective material produced by the same hacks (Toei) who have a little more help from Toriyama this time. (Toriyama did to character design for DBGT).

As much as I dislike GT, I have to acknowledge Toei hasn't thrown it away completely. They keep it alive because it does have a fan base with money. Will they retcon GT in the future? Gosh, I hope so! But with the material already covered with a purchasable product available, Toei has an easy excuse not to.

The analogy doesn't need to be perfect. That's why it's an analogy. In my view, only the work where Toriyama is the main creative force is canon. Much like only true historical events are part of the canon of world history. I think this concept is relatively easy to understand. I mean, your original argument was "they already covered that time period," but you haven't really offered any reason why they shouldn't give it another, proper try.

Since you admit yourself that GT is something you hope will be retconned (hint: it already has been, just because they use SSJ4 in games doesn't mean it's still canon), we can assume your opinion is they could have done better with the characters they had, right? Or do you honestly believe there is some intrinsically flawed element that precludes any story taking place in the "young adult Trunks, kid Pan" era from being good and enjoyable?

Yes, Toei has some motivation from an economic perspective to keep milking GT. But I definitely don't think trying to box Super into this tiny window of time was a good idea. To say that Toei had no other choice because of GT is obviously not true.

Now, beyond all of that. I do hope, much like you, that Super covers a wider swath of time than this little stretch prior to End of Z. That's my main focus and concern. I plain old just don't enjoy GT, so I hate how it's such an unavoidable presence seemingly looming over every discussion.