[Manga] Chapter 397 Spoilers Discussion

[Sakuranbo]

Originally Posted by Nintendo

pain lost a body, why not use it as a replacement

That actually makes sense

[Kenu]

Originally Posted by mayhem

Ok let me rephrase, the light and dark halves which jiraya was talking about is something the fourth left for naruto, the key likely leads to a clan location where there is information involving said jutsu and he will have to master some form of light and dark manipulation in order to achieve the jutsu which was left for him by his father, could it be his infamous time space jutsu... combining that with shadow clones and and RS , talk about over powering. This would also solve the problem with the ransegan . They need to give him this jutsu because its become clear that the nine-tail will likely be taken from naruto one way or another either by pein but more likely by the uchiha's who can control it... Couldn't see any reason to leave it inside naruto if he were to ever fight madara or sasuke again. A battle between him and sasuke is bound to happen again.

This sounds like a great preview of what's to come and would be a welcome change of what we've been served recently.

Sasuke being manipulated by Madara to control the extracted Kyuubi.


Tsunade has transferred her remaining life force to save a dying Naruto. Kakashi is made Rokudaime Hokage.

For this to work, there would have to be another short time skip. Not only to allow Naruto to learn new skills and but also gain maturity to be the next Hokage following the death of Kakashi at the hands of Sasuke.

Together Madara, Sasuke and the bijuu conquer the four countries, Kaze, Iwa, Ame, Rai. They stand on the edge of the Fire country ready for the final conflict.

[Tyrone Biggums]

I don't think Kyubi will be taken from Naruto...havnt ALL the Junchi's died when they got their demon extracted, except Gaara, but he had someone to bring him back...but I cant see them taking Kyubi and Naruto dying, show = over

[NarutowithSharingan]

Originally Posted by Hunter

No, Bloodline limit is a translation of Kekkei Genkai, I only said it is a genetical ability which don't have to be necessarily passed down to your offsprings. Well what Sabaku Kyu said.
Shikamaru, Chouji, Kiba, Ino or Shino all use secret clan jutsu, those aren't bloodline limit jutsu.

Yes....I think :P It is true that they are all Hijutsu (secret clan technique) but is it possible that they are kekkai genkai? Is there something in the manga that confirms it? Someone look for the sake of arguement :P.
Also I would like to say that Shikas techniques are Dark (Yin) Nature Manipulation (Earth, Water, Fire, Wind, Lightning, Dark (yin), Light (Yang)). Remember in both the prep to and the fight with Hidan and Kazuku in which both Akatsuki members were defeated. Shika was using Asumas chakra knives which absorb the users chakra nature. So Shikas is Dark. That is why i kinda think Shikas Jutsu may be kekkai genkai. But then again Uchiha are great at using Fire jutsu but that isnt their Kekkai Genkai. But also as it would seem not all Uchiha have an affinity to Fire (ie Sasuke - Lightning).

[bkzjester]

I believe that they'll eventually extract Kyuubi, but then "will of fire" revives him, stuns and destroys Kyuubi, in turn, eliminating Akatsuki.

[Ichimaru]

imagine if pain has accessed to a sharingan, byukuyk body....he be impossible to stop....no flaws

or even kimmimaru

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Was this explicitly stated by the manga or data book?

Sort of, While Keke Gekai Jutsus are not ranked, Jutsus from those clans, as the Nara and Akimichi, are ranked.

Besides none of this clans has ever been told that have any special trait.

For example it was stated that the 3rd hokage knew about all jutsu of the leaf village, but against Orochimaru he didn't use for example the shadow bind jutsu to bind Orochimaru while he extracts his soul with the death god jutsu.

That’s circumstantial, Kakashi knows 1000 Jutsu, yet we have seen some 12 Jutsu form him.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

About Shino i think it's definitely a bloodline, there's no way that a normal body can be full of bugs and have holes on it where the bugs come out.

Its not really a Bloodline, If I remember correctly, at birth they are given the bugs, so the bugs live in the body of the person as if their body was a nest. This people use their Chakra to feed these bugs.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

There is a reasonable explanation as to why Sarutobi didn't use any secret clan jutsu. The Third Hokage knew all the known jutsu in the leaf village. But the clan techniques are secret jutsu developed by the clans. So he wouldn't be able to use them unless he was taught by a clan member. And the Third Hokage seems like someone who would respect the autonomy of the Konoha clans and allow them to keep how they use their jutsu secret.

I personally believe he knew ALL of the Jutsu from Konoha, including those from the clan.

The Sharingan only copies the movement and allows the user to perfectly duplicate what they saw. A sharingan user could copy a taijutsu, genjutsu, or ninjutsu technique based either on the handseals or movement of the body.

The Sharingan does not only uses the movement copying to copy a jutsu, if it where like that, someone with the Naked eye could also copy a Jutsu, the Sharingan analyzes specifically the inner Chakra working, this help the eye to magically pass this info to the person and thus (barring any physical incapacity) been able to perform it right away, for example on how Kakashi copied Zabuza Mitzu bushin, whereas Zabuza did not performed any Handseals.

But the clan techniques are different which is why they are only useful to members of that specific clan. Someone like Itachi, Kakashi, Sauske couldn't copy what a Shino or Kiba do. Their clan techniques are brought about by the bonds they make with animal or insect helpers. A sharingan user couldn't use Choji's clan justu because of the massive amount of calories the Akimichi convert into chakra.

Incorrect, Itachi or Sasuke or Kakashi or Madara, can copy any Jutsu with the Sharingan, the problem lies in been able to execute the Jutsu given those constraint you mentioned.

And a sharingan user couldn't either use Shikamaru or Ino's clan jutsus. Notice how Shikamaru and Ino and only use one handseal and they hold it during the jutsu? They don't follow the typical horse, dragon, tiger, ox, rat..etc seals for jutsu. So there is nothing to copy.

Incorrect, as I explained, just because it doesn’t require Handseals, doesn’t mean it can’t be copied by the Sharingan.

The secret isn't in the movement. It's in how they manipulate yan & yang chakra. In order to manipulate your shadow or take over someone's mind, you need to learn a very specific type of technique and can only master it through training and having a clan member teach it to you. So there is no sharingan shortcut for the secret clans techniques. And the clans guard their techniques with their lives and don't teach outsiders.

I find interesting the degree of information you have about Ying & Yang Manipulation when the author only mentioned it superficially once.

[Khalilnaruske]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru

imagine if pain has accessed to a sharingan, byukuyk body....he be impossible to stop....no flaws

or even kimmimaru

If Pein took Itachi's body, there would be no point in continuing the series. Pein would simply proceed to lay the smack down on the ninja world

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Incorrect, Itachi or Sasuke or Kakashi or Madara, can copy any Jutsu with the Sharingan, the problem lies in been able to execute the Jutsu given those constraint you mentioned.

I do not think that this is quite true. Clan jutsus wouldn't be Hijutsus if they were so eaisily copied, they would simply be techniques that a clan pratices. Added to that, no other clans would ever join a village with the Uchiha if their prized techniques were so eaisily stolen. So, it is more likely that the Sharingan can not copy those techniques known as a hijutsu.

Originally Posted by Khalilnaruske

If Pein took Itachi's body, there would be no point in continuing the series. Pein would simply proceed to lay the smack down on the ninja world

While it would be interesting to see Itachi as a Pein body, if Itachi did become a Pein body, it is not like he would have the MS anymore, not only because he gave the MS to Sasuke, but also because the body would somehow gain the Rinnegan, making it irrellevant who the body is, since bloodlines (especially doujutsus) probably do not carry over. Addmittedly. if Pein took Itachi for his genjutsu abilities, then that would get rid of the one presumed weakness that Pein has.

In the end, Madara would never give a tool to Pein that was as powerful as Itachi.

[BlackShinobi07]

Any info on this weeks chapter?

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by james3wk

I do not think that this is quite true. Clan jutsus wouldn't be Hijutsus if they were so eaisily copied, they would simply be techniques that a clan pratices. Added to that, no other clans would ever join a village with the Uchiha if their prized techniques were so eaisily stolen. So, it is more likely that the Sharingan can not copy those techniques known as a hijutsu.

Hmmm, that would go completely against about what is Sharingan, think about it, what does this special Jutsu have, that could disable Sharingan to copy them? and lets focus on Shadow binding, that does not requires something as extraordinary as Bug controlling, what does Shadow binding has that incapacitate Sharigan to copy them?

As far as we know, it only has 2 components: Shape Manipulation and Ying/Yang Manipulation, which are perfectly learnable by anyone, besides, the Key point here is that these Jutsus are Ranked, meaning that they don’t have any special constraint that incapacitates your average joe from learning them.

Hijutsu are just Jutsu passed down from generation to generation, exactly the same as Gokakyu Jutsus were for the Uchihas, same as the Mitzu Jutsu are for the Hiden Mist. What makes them special is not that it can only be performed by descendant of the owner clan, what makes them special is that the clan specializes themselves in this area. You can compare them to fighting styles of an specific House, if you have read Vagabond, you could understand what I’m referring to.

Also, what makes you think that these clan willingly Joined Konoha? The History explained by Itachi could talk about conquering, or maybe some clans Joining because they had no other choice.

[Mizugetsu]

Also, what makes you think that these clan willingly Joined Konoha? The History explained by Itachi could talk about conquering, or maybe some clans Joining because they had no other choice.

Because the leader of Konoha was the First and he wasn't likly to go around Ripping clans apart and forcing them into service.

also if that were the case the current "Special Families" wouldn't be willing to help konoha if something massive were to happen like a war something which they have been seen doing during the oro attack Section of the chuunin exam

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Mizugetsu

Because the leader of Konoha was the First and he wasn't likly to go around Ripping clans apart and forcing them into service.

also if that were the case the current "Special Families" wouldn't be willing to help konoha if something massive were to happen like a war something which they have been seen doing during the oro attack Section of the chuunin exam

That was after Konoha was established, before it was a joint effort between Senjuu and Uchiha’s (you know, the clan where Madara was the leader). By that time it was an era of chaos and War, and maybe the means used back them does not resemble completely the vision you have of Shodai. You can think of as a mutualism relationship, those clans work under Konoha, because alone as a clan they couldn’t survive (what I reffered to as having no other choice). And I believe I asked that question to James.

[Ulquiorra]

Originally Posted by Rurik

The Sharingan does not only uses the movement copying to copy a jutsu, if it where like that, someone with the Naked eye could also copy a Jutsu, the Sharingan analyzes specifically the inner Chakra working, this help the eye to magically pass this info to the person and thus (barring any physical incapacity) been able to perform it right away, for example on how Kakashi copied Zabuza Mitzu bushin, whereas Zabuza did not performed any Handseals.

Not true. You are applying your opinion to canon. Why do you think ninja preform the handseals with such speed? It's so the naked eye cannot see them. But the sharingan allows the user to track fast-moving objects with ease. Remember when Kakuzu used Iron Body? Only Kakashi was able to see the handseals and determine it was an earth jutsu. He also likely copied it.

As for how Kakashi copied the water clone technique? Zabuza at first couldn't believe Kakashi could copy any technique since they were in the mist. But Zabuza figured out that Kakashi already did it just before he comforted Sasuke. It was the clone who did the comforting. The real Kakashi hid in the mist and watched him to observe Zabuza's movements. That's your answer.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Incorrect, as I explained, just because it doesn’t require Handseals, doesn’t mean it can’t be copied by the Sharingan.

Please provide where this is stated in canon. Either in a chapter or databook. Unless you are Kishimoto of course.

Now Chiyo used tensei jutsu. It doesn't require hand seals. Kakashi could have copied it. We don't know. The sharingan could rely more than just hand seals and movement to copy a jutsu. But this is an opinion. We do know that the sharingan copies hand seals and movements. Everything else is speculation which cannot be presented as fact.

Originally Posted by Rurik

I find interesting the degree of information you have about Ying & Yang Manipulation when the author only mentioned it superficially once.

The same could be said of you and your opinions.

Anyway, I agree with James. There is no evidence that the clan justu can be copied. And I haven't read a compelling case in how the sharingan could do this.

[Khalilnaruske]

Originally Posted by james3wk

In the end, Madara would never give a tool to Pein that was as powerful as Itachi.

True. One can dream though, one can only dream.

[mayhem]

Originally Posted by Khalilnaruske

If Pein took Itachi's body, there would be no point in continuing the series. Pein would simply proceed to lay the smack down on the ninja world

depends if itach were still blind

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Not true. You are applying your opinion to canon. Why do you think ninja preform the handseals with such speed? It's so the naked eye cannot see them. But the sharingan allows the user to track fast-moving objects with ease. Remember when Kakuzu used Iron Body? Only Kakashi was able to see the handseals and determine it was an earth jutsu. He also likely copied it.

Seen the hand seals and determine what type of Jutsu it is, doesn’t have anything to do with Sharingan been able to copy Jutsus that doesn’t use Handseals.

As for how Kakashi copied the water clone technique? Zabuza at first couldn't believe Kakashi could copy any technique since they were in the mist. But Zabuza figured out that Kakashi already did it just before he comforted Sasuke. It was the clone who did the comforting. The real Kakashi hid in the mist and watched him to observe Zabuza's movements. That's your answer.

????? Zabuza directly stated that he copied in the moment he performed the Jutsu, there is no going around this.

Volume 2:

Zabuza: At that time You already copied my water Jutsu…

This instance was used to introduce Sharingan copying abilities. The times Hunter has explained this are countless…

Please provide where this is stated in canon. Either in a chapter or databook. Unless you are Kishimoto of course.

I already pointed you out where, in the Zabuza fight when Zabuza performed the Mitsu bushin he did not used Handseals, and Kakshi copied it. it is your choice to believe this or not

Now Chiyo used tensei jutsu. It doesn't require hand seals. Kakashi could have copied it. We don't know. The sharingan could rely more than just hand seals and movement to copy a jutsu. But this is an opinion. We do know that the sharingan copies hand seals and movements. Everything else is speculation which cannot be presented as fact.

If Kakashi can’t copy it its due to the fact of constraint based on Chakra Shape/Elemental Manipulation, I pointed you out already an example of Sharingan copying a Jutsu that did not used Handseals.

Anyway, I agree with James. There is no evidence that the clan justu can be copied. And I haven't read a compelling case in how the sharingan could do this.

Yet, its has been implicitly stated in the Manga and Databook, And I find interesinting what you said before, :

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

... …So he wouldn't be able to use them unless he was taught by a clan member.

. You are saying that Sandaime could learn this Jutsu, while not been a descendant of the Clan, yet Sharingan can’t copy this? I guess you are convinced that Sharingan can’t copy Jutsu that doesn’t use Handseals.

I’m not going to exhaust this, unfortunately for you, this is not the first time this has been asked and debated, and direct quotes and information has been brought up about this, there are some privileges that comes from posting 4 years continually in a forum, and one of those is been used to this kind of questions..

While I expect for James to understand the logic behind what I have explained, I don’t expect that from you, either way, Maybe Hunter could use his spoon and convince you.


----



I found this from Hunter, I hope people stop debating if it can copy or not Jutsu wit no hand seals, and about the Secret Jutsu from those clans.

Originally Posted by Hunter

To quote the Data Book :

This is konoha's finest clan, Uchiha Clan's bloodline limit. Within the clan, there is only a portion of the members who possess this special ability. The tomoe seal within the pupil is the special markings of the Sharingan. Sharingan is an observation eye, which is capable of exposing everything, an illusion eye capable of casting illusions and also an eye of jutsu copying capabilities. Just like in the battle between Kakashi and Zabuza, where it seems like it can predict the future, and using different combat methods, allowing the user to have unlimited defensive and offensive strategies.

Sharingan's observation eye, is one of the finest in doujutsu. Within split seconds, this observation eye is capable of exposing to the user all systems of Ninjutsu, Taijutsu and Genjutsu, also the movement and attacking path of the opponent, or the opponent's defences against fatal moves, evading movements from the user's attack, etc... These will enhance the overall combat abilities of the user in different situations. This petrifying ability is worthy of the title, "Heaven's Eye".

Plus the ability of copying, Sharingan, can wield its true capabilities... that is to copy and possess jutsus seen only once by the user. Regardless of whether its chakra molding or seals forming, all the under lying physics of the jutsu will be copied and remembered by the user in an instant. In order to weild the jutsu, the user must have sufficient chakra and also an able body that can withstand the demands of the jutsu. However, an Uchiha will not allow himself to be restricted by these conditions. This is because they will utilised their accumulated combat experience, and also bring out their potential when the need arises. The more critical the situation is, the more they are able to harness their potential to the maximum.

[Endrance]

Its not all that much of a big deal about Itachi's body being taken i mean thats whats supposed to be done. Zetsu usually comes along and gets rid of the bodies to keep akatsuki secrets...although Akatsuki is kinda running out of members and secrets...(What are there four left now)

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Endrance

Its not all that much of a big deal about Itachi's body being taken i mean thats whats supposed to be done. Zetsu usually comes along and gets rid of the bodies to keep akatsuki secrets...although Akatsuki is kinda running out of members and secrets...(What are there four left now)

or maybe madara have plans on sasuke regarding itachi and his eyes about having EMS?

[SeanQ]

don't think he ate itachi...since he didn't eat him after sasuke collapsing and tobi said that we have to retrieve itachi's body and sasuke...not...go eat itachi and ill take sasuke.
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