[Manga] Chapter 456 Discussion

[SeanQ]

You guys do know you're trying to reason with the sharingan right now right...and
sharingan = no logic...
________
Mature Cam

[Hiking_Bear]

Originally Posted by Luce

So really, I'm not sure what the answer is. It seems arguments can be made for both sides. I guess we will just have to wait and see if it is cleared up. But then again this question could already have been answered in one the data books, but I haven't read them, so I don't know.

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, just stating what I see and how I believe it can be interpreted.

The databook says that Amaterasu is close range, which means 0-5m (about 3 body lengths). This is shown in Chapter 415, where Sasuke's vision zooms in on the hachibi's head, but the Amaterasu is generated in front of the hachibi's head, since the hachibi is more than 5m away.

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by james0246

Each character is definetly Top Tier, and we have no real indication that one is naturally superior to the others. And, while I do think that Pain/Nagato could defeat Itachi, I expect such a hyothetical battle to be long fought, with the victor just barely defeating their opponent (the same goes for a hypothetical Jiraiya v Itachi encounter).

From what we’ve seen from both Itachi and Pein, I’d say Pein is the more likely winner of a hypothetical fight; he’d probably overpower Itachi eventually by using techniques which Itachi just doesn’t seem to have an answer for (to our knowledge). I still believe Itachi has a pretty decent chance to win though; considering he seems more intelligent that Nagato, and much more crafty/cunning with his moves, in contrast to Pein’s M.O (brute force). That, coupled with his sharingan techniques poses a major threat to Pein; I don’t know why people are trying to make it seem as if this fight would be a simple blowout in Pein’s favor… I’d give Itachi a ~40% chance (with both of them at full health)…

I say this because like Pein, Itachi also has certain “showstopper” moves; he could conceivably take out 3-4 (or perhaps even all) the bodies with a few swings of his artifact sword; but then again everything can conceivably end with a very strong Shinra Tensei... The worst I see Itachi doing is die leaving a very wounded God Realm (or perhaps even Nagato himself) still standing with the rest of the bodies destroyed.

[Luce]

Surprised Danzou's "fight" hasn't been talked about very much. I have to agree with him being pretty badass after his massacre of those 25 wood ninja. He was completely ruthless too, just like ninjas are suppose to be. Helpless ninja at his feet moaning, and he stabs the guy through the head with his own sword, then uses the dead body to defend against the other ninja's attacks, with the ninja's sword still sticking out of his head, pretty much awesome.

And it would seem that he is a wind element user, haven't seen many of them, if it is his affinity that is. Attacks like the one he pulled off make me wish Naruto would expand on his wind techniques, even though he really has no desire to kill anymore.

[ShadowAssasin]

Originally Posted by Luce

Surprised Danzou's "fight" hasn't been talked about very much. I have to agree with him being pretty badass after his massacre of those 25 wood ninja. He was completely ruthless too, just like ninjas are suppose to be. Helpless ninja at his feet moaning, and he stabs the guy through the head with his own sword, then uses the dead body to defend against the other ninja's attacks, with the ninja's sword still sticking out of his head, pretty much awesome.

And it would seem that he is a wind element user, haven't seen many of them, if it is his affinity that is. Attacks like the one he pulled off make me wish Naruto would expand on his wind techniques, even though he really has no desire to kill anymore.

lol that Itachi and Pein thing completely took me off course, you're right(I thought some fodder members here where going to gang up on james again ). I thought it was a good (albeit a brief one) fight, even though we didn't get to see that much. Contrary to what many people here wanted to believe, Danzou doesn't seem to be an old useless cripple after all, surprise surprise (and you seemed to agree with them james; although not explicitly ).

I'm also happy that those soldiers standing guard at the land of Iron turned out to be real Samurai after all. He specifically stated instead of ninja, they use Samurai; which means those unimpressive guards are just fodder standing guard as ninja goons would be standing guard at any other village we've seen. Heres hoping a major Samurai character will be involved in the plot somehow. "Land of Iron"; sounds like they'll have some interesting abilities.

[Shiryuu]

It's gonna suck for the kid if the mizukage is like Tsunade. Probably...

[kk2extreme]

sharigan for everyone

[Mirtual]

First:
You don't mess with the Itachi!

Second:
Chapter was all right.
Kind of had a nice feeling around it. Felt like some real "movement" was in the story line.
A build up chapter that did not feel completely draged out.

It is nice to see a little combination of character story lines and real important stuff on the outsied. Like a Kage meeting.

Even though I like a good pace in story telling, I hope Kishi won't be overdoing a rushed naruto end now.
I think we are seeing about the last arc now.

[Haak]

Ragrding the whole Itachi vs Pain thing.

Couldn't Itachi just try and find out where Nagato (he ought to be close by right?) and then use that Sansoo...sunsoo...whatever it's called to kill him?

[astayanax]

used spoilers to cut down on text.

Spoiler:

My thoughts on Pein and Itachi are that they are pretty much about equal. Pein with his numbers, summons, gravity and resurrection vs Itachi with his intelligence, speed, genjutsus and MS.

he and Sasuke were ~equals, except for Sussanoos (since Sasuke escaped from Amaterasu on his own and apparently broke Tsukiyomi too, although I'm not too sure about that - there weren't inverted colors, the red moon etc. in those illusions - it may have very well been just a regular strong Sharingan illusion)

Sasuke is nowhere near Itachi's league. Saying that Sasuke escaped Amaterasu on his own is implying that Itachi was trying to kill Sasuke which was confirmed never to be the case. Kishimoto made Itachi pretty much fooled everyone (reader and Sasuke alive) of his true intentions of the fight. The only thing Sasuke really did on his own that went against Itachi's plans was breaking out of Tsukiyomi; but that isn't surprising when Itachi told Kakashi that only an Uchiha could get out of it.

Can Pein repels Amaterasu? Probably if Itachi was a distance away and Amaterasu was traveling towards him; but since we know that Amaterasu moves very fast and that it goes to where the MS user has his sights on; it will simply go straight to Pein again after it gets bounced off unlike say Naruto's rasengens... and Pein will still be recovering his small lapse. I don't believe Pein will have much success against Amaterasu with his gravity attacks. On the other hand, Pein has bodies he can sacrifice which may give the God Realm time to escape before Amaterasu kills it too. If on the other hand Itachi is close to Pein (dangerous considering some of Pein's tricks) and use Amaterasu, the God Realm is dead.

Ragrding the whole Itachi vs Pain thing.

Couldn't Itachi just try and find out where Nagato (he ought to be close by right?) and then use that Sansoo...sunsoo...whatever it's called to kill him?

It wont be that easy for Itachi. He first has to know that the 6 Peins are in fact dummies. Secondly depending on the location, Pein can in fact be far away from his bodies. I wont put it past Itachi's intelligence/insight to quickly find out where Pein is hiding (similiarly to how Konoha nins did); but he is still going to have to fight the bodies reaching that location and Pein can always move to another place. Itachi's speed (like Sasuke's) is more bursty; not suited for long distance travelling. Some people had suggested that Itachi may know Pein's secrets but I highly doubt that since that likely meant Jiraiya should have known as well (I am nearly 100% certain Itachi was Jiraiya's source of Akatsuki's information and whereabouts)

Lastly, Naruto didn't beat Pein (in the way that we know it) but talked Pein to death. I am pretty confident if the fight went on, Pein would had eventually defeated Naruto.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Luce

Surprised Danzou's "fight" hasn't been talked about very much. I have to agree with him being pretty badass after his massacre of those 25 wood ninja. He was completely ruthless too, just like ninjas are suppose to be. Helpless ninja at his feet moaning, and he stabs the guy through the head with his own sword, then uses the dead body to defend against the other ninja's attacks, with the ninja's sword still sticking out of his head, pretty much awesome.

And it would seem that he is a wind element user, haven't seen many of them, if it is his affinity that is. Attacks like the one he pulled off make me wish Naruto would expand on his wind techniques, even though he really has no desire to kill anymore.

I'm arguing about that for months now. I always said Danzou is strong and totally being underestimated. I did not expect him to have a sharingan. That makes him even stronger. Also, I think the Kages will strongly argue about him. Mizukage and Kazekage are no warmongers and have achieved some kind of peace in their countries after all the bloodlust had nearly destroyed their villages.

Tsuchikage is a strong and old warmonger. Well, maybe he has weakened in physical power, but his political power is yet unmatched as he can still claim his position as a Kage without being fired and Raikage is an old warmonger and aggressive because of his abuse of anabolic steroids.

This of course indicates it will be a 2 vs. 2 and I doubt Danzou will easily let this happen to him. I also think that Mizukage will bring Naruto into discussion as Samui knows about him and that the whole village is currently talking about him as a hero. Thus Mizukage won't only vote against Danzou but also suggest that Naruto becomes the next Hokage. Of course Gaara will agree to that, but then again... it will be 50/50.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

This of course indicates it will be a 2 vs. 2 and I doubt Danzou will easily let this happen to him. I also think that Mizukage will bring Naruto into discussion as Samui knows about him and that the whole village is currently talking about him as a hero. Thus Mizukage won't only vote against Danzou but also suggest that Naruto becomes the next Hokage. Of course Gaara will agree to that, but then again... it will be 50/50.

Well, this summit isn't to talk about voting Danzou as Hokage. The other Kages have no say in that. However, Danzou believes that if he makes a good impression on the other Kages the jonin of Konoha will easily accept him as their leader.

The real purpose of the meeting is to discuss Sasuke (and Akatsuki by extent) as a danger. I agree that the Kages will split on that issue. Danzou & the Raikage are already in the camp that believe immediate action needs to be taken against Sasuke/Akatsuki and I guess they will try to convince the rest of the Kages to lend their support.

Sand has already been attacked by Akatsuki and knows exactly how dangerous they can be. Gaara is familiar with Sasuke from the chuunin exams, but it's hard to say how he sees him as a person (there shouldn't be any particular fondness there IMO). But somehow I doubt he'll agree with killing Sasuke.

Mist and Rock villages haven't been attacked by Akatsuki or know about Sasuke, but both have missing-nin who ended up in Akatsuki though it's still unknown if they're aware of that. They'll probably need more convincing before they decide to take action.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

As you can see in chapter 390 pg. 4 the flames are traveling towards Saskue and as you can see in chapter 415 pg. 1 the flames are traveling to the opponent and we can even see the Eight-Tails looking at the flame as it travels to him..

Huh? Itachi made the Amaterasu appaer to consume the Flame Jutsu made By Sasuke before Itachi begun to control the path of Amaterasu towards Sasuke, don't put incomplete information to try and prove your point.

Yes, as stated by Databook, and shown in the Manga the amaterasu as such is a Jutsu that appears where Itachi or Sasuke set their gaze on, pretty much as the same as Kakashi's Jutsu.

[Hunter]

How could this chapter produces a Pain vs. Itachi debat I wonder?

Originally Posted by lonewolf777

Is it just me, or has the Sharingan evolved unexplainably? If I recall correctly, the Sharingan was a copy eye that allowed the user to see the secrets of the opponents' techniques.... then introduce the Mangekyou and it became a powerful genjutsu tool; fair enough, albeit completely unrelated.

However.... as of late, it seems that it's completely outside of the lines Kishimoto originally drew for it. Since when was the normal Sharingan a genjutsu weapon? Where did all these weird new powers that go along with Sasuke's sharingan come from? I think Kishimoto's taken his love for Sasuke a little too far.... but that's just my opinion.

Since chapter 15 when Kakashi used a Sharingan Genjutsu against Zabuza. Seeing chakra was shown as soon as the begining of the Chuunin exam when the Rain trio attacked Team 7.
Most if not all of the abilities of the regular Sharingan have stayed the same thorough the manga (power inflation being taken into consideration of course), in fact the copy jutsu part has been considerably toned down when not outright ignored probably because it was way too powerful.
MS however is another story.

The only "new" thing this chapter confirmed is the fact that Sharingan Genjutsu could indeed work against multiple targets at once.
Ha well maybe this explains that.

Originally Posted by Fukitsu Naruto

-So let me get this straight: on top of every other country that we have seen there are two more countries being introduced?

We know for a fact that there are other contries outhere, there are still a handfull of unnamed country on the maps we have been shown.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Hunter

How could this chapter produces a Pain vs. Itachi debat I wonder?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...3&postcount=65

Your Question answered, it was a matter of time before this vs appeared, Jiraiya vs Itachi grew old.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Hunter

How could this chapter produces a Pain vs. Itachi debat I wonder?

Random "Itachi is invincible" comment by someone, that I had to reply to.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Mist and Rock villages haven't been attacked by Akatsuki or know about Sasuke, but both have missing-nin who ended up in Akatsuki though it's still unknown if they're aware of that. They'll probably need more convincing before they decide to take action.

Technically, both the 4th and the 5th Tailed Jinchuuriki came from Iwagakure, with the 4th Tail being the only one we know that wasn't fully part of the village. And, the 3rd Tail and 6th Tail Jinchuuriki herald from Kirigakure (although the 3rd Tail was released at some point previous to the begining of the current story arcs). So, both villages have already conceivably been attacked by Akatsuki.

Unless it turns out that the Jinchuuriki from these villages were missing-nin, they should already have sufficient reason for wanting to attack Akatsuki.

Originally Posted by Hunter

How could this chapter produces a Pain vs. Itachi debat I wonder?

Because this chapter was a relatively boring transitional chapter...

[Killer Bee]

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

James you know better, the bold has no facts behind it whatsoever, cause Amateratsu has never been shown to be unleashed like that. And comparing deidara's explosison to Pain's destruction of Konoha means absolutely nothing because Pain's Shinrai Tensai repels ANY ninjutsu [Including Amataratsu!!] and Physical attacks thrown at it. Shinra Tensai > C4 explosion. I know you were trying to show how the other posters logic was wrong [and you did] but your's was too.

I'm not so sure about that. Pains repulsion/attraction powers effect mass, not energy as far as I understand. If it affected energy then light would be bent and you wouldn't even be able to see what was going on in the frame clearly. I'm still in complete agreement that amaterasu travels and doesn't instantly combust on its target unless it goes back to my theory that all the MS does is open portals. If you open a portal in front of a target then amaterasu doesn't really have to travel aside from emerging from the portal.

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

J-man didn't beat the three Pains easily at all he was struggling, he couldn't put them down at all until he used his last resort which was a Genjutsu technique. But we know what happened after that..

Considering that Jiraya didn't know a thing about Pain, I thought he did excellent. Not only did he avoid getting taken out long enough to figure things out about Pain, but once he did figure things out he defeated the only bodies he had been confronted by. In fact he killed all three with ease once he realized that they fought in tandem. Were it not for the sneak attack, Jiraya hadn't been damaged at all up to that point. Considering that, plus the fact that Pain himself said that Jiraya would have won had he known more tips the scales in Jiraya's favor.

Originally Posted by james0246

Well, first of all, Deidara is one of the few true long-range speacialist in the series. He could have simply hovered several 100 meters above the village and just carpet bombed everything and everyone (that is, if he only wished to destroy the village). Added to that, since Amaterasu can't be put out, burns for 7 days and nights, and can spread, the only thing in Konoha that could stop the flames are Kakashi's Kamui and someone with knowledge of fuinjutsu (sealing).

Exactly. Amaterasu is NOT some ultimate jitsu. Madara was unaffected by it. Killer Bee used a clone to shield himself. Jiraya put it out by sealing it(effectively stopping it from burning anything else).

Originally Posted by james0246

So claiming superiority for Pain is not fully true (added to that, in order to use the full powered Shinra Tensei, Pain had to shut down the other Pain bodies, and a bit of Nagato's life force was also taken due to the technique, so, much the same as Itachi using Amterasu slowly destroys his eyes, Nagato using a full powered Shinra Tensei slowly destroys his life).

Still, I don't see Pain having to use an ultimate jutsu to combat and defeat Itachi. I don't see Itachi being able to beat the 6 Pain bodies. Let us not forget that each time Itachi uses an MS ability he is damaged to the point of needing rest. Anyone remember how spent Itachi was after burning through Jiraya's Toad trap? Or how he basically had to flee after using Tsukuyomi on Kakashi? Even Kisame admonished him on using his MS because it basically taxed Itachi to the point of be very vulnerable, unless Itachi was willing to go all out(holding no reserve) as we saw in his fight agaisnt Sasuke.

Originally Posted by james0246

Then Itachi's comments could simply be seen as him trying to placate Kisame, so that Itachi need not fear having to fight Jiraiya and potentially killing him or being killed by Jiraiya since Itachi did not want to use full force against a Konoha-nin.

I don't think that Itachi had any reservations about killing any Konoha-nin after he slaughtered every Uchiha except of Sasuke. Its a little late in the game for morals. Yes, Itachi had love for his brother, but don't confuse that for him being anything other than a cold hearted killer. If Jiraya got in the way of Itachi's agenda and posed a threat I don't doubt for a minute that Itachi would have done what he had to do. In the case of Jiraya, it was just smarter not to fight and risk not being able to end his life in battle against Sasuke.

Originally Posted by james0246

In regards to Naruto, the info may have mattered very little (or not, depending on how you wish to view the battle), but in reagrds to Jiraiya, it meant everything. The old pervert only lost his limb due to Pain's surprise attack, and the only reason that Jiraiya continued to fight, was due to the fact that he wanted more info on Pain. Whether or not that info was helpful to Naruto is definetly debatable, but if Jiraiya had such info, I do think that Jiraiya could have defeated the Pain bodies (but probably not Nagato) - we must remember, Pain even said that if Jiraiya had all the info on Pain/Nagato, then it could have been Pain defeated, not Jiraiya.

Yeah baby ... but Nagato in his current condition isn't a threat. His body is useless, which is why he needs bodies in which to work his rinnengan jazz through. Why else hide away if he himself was that powerful?

Originally Posted by james0246

I do agree with your basic logic here, but I do not agree with you elevating Pain above Itachi and Jiraiya before the fight even begins for no real reason. Each character is definetly Top Tier, and we have no real indication that one is naturally superior to the others. And, while I do think that Pain/Nagato could defeat Itachi, I expect such a hyothetical battle to be long fought, with the victor just barely defeating their opponent (the same goes for a hypothetical Jiraiya v Itachi encounter).

I have a good reason for why Pain is superior to Itachi: The Rinnengan.
Its clearly a better doujustu. And if Nagato hadn't been crippled there is no doubt in my mind that Itachi would lose. And quickly. As it is, Itachi had to seek out and add Susanoo to his repertoire as it is DEFINITELY not an MS ability. The jury is still out on amaterasu.

Pain can use devastating jutsu aside from his ultimate his ultimate over and over again. While once Itachi uses any MS ability, he has to run and recoup. I think that shows the weakness in Itachi's one shot deal attacks. Pain has to take 5 seconds to recoup while Itachi has to take a nap and sip medicine. Sasuke's vision has already diminished having used his MS.

Originally Posted by james0246

Actually, Amaterasu was used very similarly to this in the fight with Sasuke. Remember, all of the background behind Sasuke also caught fire, so it stands to reason that if Itachi were to look down on Konoha from the Kage Monument (which has a view of the entire city) he could start spreading Amaterasu everywhere (he need not do the entire city in one blow (ala C4/C0 or Shinra Tensei), but in a short amount of time, the entire village would be consumed.

Not even. If amaterasu is a short range ability, then how is Itachi using his disintergrating beam to destroy Konoha from a distance? How has amaterasu become some uber jitsu in the few times we've seen it? Yes .. its powerful in that it hurts who it touches, but it hasn't been seen to be the end all weapon. In fact, I would say susanoo is much more valuable as it is both uber offensive and defensive.

Originally Posted by james0246

Added to that, for a hyothetical situation involing Pain v. Itachi, Amaterasu consumes anything, including ninjutsu. So whether one can divert or destroy the other is unknown. Added to that, since the method of delivary is unknown (i.e. does it travel from the eye to the target, or does the target simply burst into flame), it is unclear if Pain could unleash a Shinra Tensei before Itachi unleashes the Amaterasu (or even if Shinra Tensei is unleashed, that doesn't mean that it could stop a flame that naturally sprouts from the target).

Doesn't that work both ways? And am I undertsanding you correctly when I quote you as saying that amaterasu can consume chakra?

Originally Posted by james0246

You would have more luck arguing (not with me, since I really do not care who would win in such a match-up) whether Preta could absorb Amaterasu or not, and not whether Shinra Tensei could divert Amaterasu.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

The fact that Shinra Tensai can deflect any ninjtutsu is proof that it can blow away Amateratsu.

I don't agree here. I think James had it right. Only Preta can absorb ninjutsu, not God Pain using shinra tensai.

Originally Posted by Phenomenal

It even deflected Naruto's Rasengan's casually and Fat Pain can absorb all ninjtutsu and all chakra based ninjutsu as well and Susano'o is materailized chakra.

Well, rasengan has form. I believe that the rasengan is shape(form) and rotation manipulation. That means that even though the rasengan is energy, its has form which gravity can affect. If it didn't, the FRS wouldn't have to be thrown. It could simply be shot like a laser like most other energy based weapons.

With all that said, the reason that Nagato strikes me as top toer is because he is just powerful. Pain on the other hand is gimmicky. Itachi is a one shot deal kind of fighter who is spent after his first MS assault. Jiraya is also powerful and doesn't have to rely on secrets or gimmicks to defeat foes.

Some might argue that Itachi repeatedly used MS abilities during his fight with Sasuke, but I'm not so sure. The whole fight may have been a genjutsu. I'm not even sure that Itachi, a man who came to die for his little brother, even really shot amaterasu as Sasuke. Why would he risk hitting Sasuke with such a thing??? Does that make sense to anyone? I'm betting that it was a genjutsu based on Itachi's desire to give it all for Sasuke and him being able to use MS over and over when in the past he damn nearly had to be carried away by Kisame after using MS just once.

A healthy Nagato vs a healthy Itachi ... I pick Nagato. Nagato's powers were too diverse and powerful. And the only reason Kishi crippled Nagato was had he not Nagato would have been nearly unbeatable.

Sharingan's only hope is EMS .. and as of now we don't know what that can do.

But as someone said(I don't feel like going back and reading through to find out who ..you know who you are) we don't know how powerful the Byakugan is either. It may be the doujutsu that can match them both. Or maybe just negate them both because Hyuuga can see chakra and disrupt it.

Who knows?

Hopefully Kishi won't leave that hole wide open.

[That Other Ninja]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

But as someone said(I don't feel like going back and reading through to find out who ..you know who you are) we don't know how powerful the Byakugan is either. It may be the doujutsu that can match them both. Or maybe just negate them both because Hyuuga can see chakra and disrupt it.

Who knows?

Hopefully Kishi won't leave that hole wide open.

I've said that a lot.

I blame Kishimoto for not being able to multi-task his character development, and hence you get people saying stuff like "hyuuga are canon-fodder" at this point in the overall story.

But I guess I can't blame them, it does seem that way. Much to us Hyuuga fans' chagrin.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Killer Bee

Sharingan's only hope is EMS .. and as of now we don't know what that can do.

Well, we do know that it eliminates away the side effects of going blind that the MS has (I gather it should be a strees free MS.. with Itachi using the MS against Sasuke, it only seem more painful for Itachi than it was helpful).

And Please, or either lets stop the "Itachi vs Pain", Or "Pain is my god", or "Itachi is my god", or. "Sharigan is not Th3 best... it is the Byakugan" etc... this act looks amusing, but this is not the place to be talking about that..