AnimeSuki Forums

scwizard · 2009-10-24, 15:06

Battler smelled smoke coming out of the gun. Just because he didn't visually perceive smoke coming out of the gun, doesn't mean he didn't perceive smoke coming out of the gun.

Smokeless bullets are impossible, the Winchester used bullets without visible smoke.

Jan-Poo · 2009-10-24, 15:14

well they were actually named "smokeless bullets".

Anyway the point is that the smoke wasn't visible and as I previously said Battler couldn't be sure the smell came from that gun unless he closely sniffed it. It wouldn't be the first time Battler isn't precise in his assertions.

scwizard · 2009-10-24, 15:18

Well, this is kind of moot, because as I mentioned and will mention again, Battler reloaded the gun.

Quote:

when I pulled hard on the rifle's lever, the cartridge was ejected, fell on the floor, and a new cartridge was loaded.

Why would Battler have to reload the gun in Natsuhi's hands if that gun hadn't fired a shot.

If you combine the fact that Battler had to reload the gun, with the fact that Battler smelled smoke coming out of the gun, it's very unreasonable to say that the gun had not been fired.

Jan-Poo · 2009-10-24, 15:25

I said it in my first answer. The bullet wasn't spent. Battler assumed Natsuhi fired so he reloaded the gun

By the way in the anime Battler doesn't reload the gun. It isn't a mistake, because Battler fires a second time in the anime and he reloads the gun before of that. This means DEEN was pretty well aware of how the gun works, they perfectly depicted the mechanism, including the autococking that comes after pulling the lever and the bullet case being ejected.

So according to the anime you can be almost certain that Natsuhi didn't fire.

Renall · 2009-10-24, 15:34

If Natsuhi had fired, there's no guarantee Battler would notice any damage. She could've fired into the floor down the hallway, or into one of the dark rooms, so no one would've realized she'd missed or fired at nothing.

Likewise, Battler noticed nothing to suggest a gun was used on everyone in ep4 (you'd think if someone used a shotgun or magnum at close range there'd be bullet holes all over the house). That could mean there wasn't a gun used, or it could mean Battler is just inattentive about that (or the writer doesn't care). Then again, he noticed the holes in Kyrie's room, so...

Jan-Poo · 2009-10-24, 16:02

Yeah I doubt it was a gun that did that mess in ep4. My guess it was the same weapon used in ep3 for the first twilight.

What kind of tool can do that?

LyricalAura · 2009-10-24, 16:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yeah I doubt it was a gun that did that mess in ep4. My guess it was the same weapon used in ep3 for the first twilight.

What kind of tool can do that?

According to Nanjo, the first twilight wounds in Episode 3 could have been caused either by a gun or by a spear-like object. It could be they were just stabbed with one of the stakes.

Renall · 2009-10-24, 16:47

I think you mean the ep1 first twilight, if you mean smashed heads.

The best way to smash a head like that is a large blunt object. To avoid hearing gunfire or seeing bullet holes, a weapon such as a sledgehammer or other heavy blunt object could have been used. It seems entirely possible that people who have their faces smashed are killed by some other means, and the killer then smashes their heads to conceal the actual means of death.

For instance, if people were poisoned and died from the poison, or shot in the head with a lower-caliber gun (so the bullet doesn't penetrate and leave holes in the house). The killer then could smash their heads with a hammer, and the gore would cover up the rest.

This would also explain the uniformity of the ep4 wounds; everyone was killed first, then smashed after, either each time a group of people died or after everyone had died. It goes without saying that the person smashing faces need not be the murderer, although I can't imagine why someone would go and do that if not.

DesuX2 · 2009-10-24, 21:24

Something I realized, Virgilia said something about not being able to use endless magic to revive something permanently when she did it for the urn in episode 3, isn't that some foreshadowing that even if Battler wins the game, his family is still dead desu?

blitz1/2 · 2009-10-24, 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

I think you mean the ep1 first twilight, if you mean smashed heads.

The best way to smash a head like that is a large blunt object. To avoid hearing gunfire or seeing bullet holes, a weapon such as a sledgehammer or other heavy blunt object could have been used. It seems entirely possible that people who have their faces smashed are killed by some other means, and the killer then smashes their heads to conceal the actual means of death.

For instance, if people were poisoned and died from the poison, or shot in the head with a lower-caliber gun (so the bullet doesn't penetrate and leave holes in the house). The killer then could smash their heads with a hammer, and the gore would cover up the rest.

This would also explain the uniformity of the ep4 wounds; everyone was killed first, then smashed after, either each time a group of people died or after everyone had died. It goes without saying that the person smashing faces need not be the murderer, although I can't imagine why someone would go and do that if not.

Damn, there goes my theory of someone smuggled an anti-tank bazooka and blowing half of people's faces off.

Jan-Poo · 2009-10-24, 23:34

Well the reason I compare ep3 and ep4 twilight is the fact that in both cases a shotgun was postulated as being the weapons, however in both cases the shotgun just isn't credible. There would be visible signs left if it's been a shotgun. And how the hell is that Nanjo can't tell apart a shotgun wound from a spear wound?

Escargotage · 2009-10-25, 00:56

Am I the only one who thought (in the manga, anyway) that their faces didn't look smashed, but rather melted off? I didn't realize they'd be smashed in half until the next chapter when someone mentioned it, and until I started playing the VN and had them say it.

LyricalAura · 2009-10-25, 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well the reason I compare ep3 and ep4 twilight is the fact that in both cases a shotgun was postulated as being the weapons, however in both cases the shotgun just isn't credible. There would be visible signs left if it's been a shotgun. And how the hell is that Nanjo can't tell apart a shotgun wound from a spear wound?

If I remember correctly, he didn't actually specify what kind of gun he thought it was in Episode 3. Since he said the weapon could have been a spear as well, I always assumed the wound was a smallish round hole, like you might get from a rifle.

chronotrig · 2009-10-25, 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by DesuX2

Something I realized, Virgilia said something about not being able to use endless magic to revive something permanently when she did it for the urn in episode 3, isn't that some foreshadowing that even if Battler wins the game, his family is still dead desu?

Virgilia said that it was impossible for her to revive something permanently because she wasn't an Endless Witch. According to her, a true Endless Witch can revive things for all eternity, which is where the "endless" comes from.

If we believe "magic" to be a code word for "lies", then the endless magic would be a lie that can never be discovered. It looks like the truth about Rokkenjima is such a lie. Of course, if magic=lies, that probably doesn't bode well for anyone actually surviving in the end because of magic.

scwizard · 2009-10-25, 02:32

What theories are out there, concerning the deaths in the chapel, other than "Rosa did it"?

Spoiler for image:

Renall · 2009-10-25, 02:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by scwizard

What theories are out there, concerning the deaths in the chapel, other than "Rosa did it"?

Well, there was my "Gohda Accident Theory" that explains all deaths in ep2.

scwizard · 2009-10-25, 02:43

Care to provide a link or something, or repost it?

luckyssol · 2009-10-25, 02:58

I posted a theory a while back that basically said that anyone could have murdered the six in the chapel if a second key to the chapel existed at the time. There is no red declaration saying that multiple chapel keys did not exist when the six were murdered. However, the second key would have had to have been destroyed after the first twilight to get past the red declaration of "There's only one key to the chapel.". The main problem with this theory is that why would someone destroy the second key?

Anyway, that's just an alternate theory as you requested. Rosa being the culprit of the first twilight seems the most logical.

LyricalAura · 2009-10-25, 03:02

There's also the "Kumasawa's Halloween Party" and "Murder Mystery Game" theories, both of which have a similar premise.

The chapel was never actually declared to be a closed room in red. You can get around the whole mess of red involving the key by supposing that the door was just left unlocked all the way from when Maria received the key until Rosa got it out of the envelope in the morning. That requires Rosa and Genji (at least) to have been basically putting on an act for some reason up until they went inside the chapel and found the bodies, though. The reason varies between "Kumasawa was setting up a Halloween party for Maria" and "some people on the island are staging a murder mystery game."

Tyabann · 2009-10-25, 03:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by chronotrig

If we believe "magic" to be a code word for "lies", then the endless magic would be a lie that can never be discovered. It looks like the truth about Rokkenjima is such a lie. Of course, if magic=lies, that probably doesn't bode well for anyone actually surviving in the end because of magic.

Magic has to exist in some form. How else are you going to explain the meta-world, colored text, and endless recursion of time without resorting to stupid things like It Was All Just a Dream and hallucinations?

I'm pretty positive we'll get a Happy End... really, what's the point, otherwise?

2009-10-24, 15:14	Link #2602
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	well they were actually named "smokeless bullets". Anyway the point is that the smoke wasn't visible and as I previously said Battler couldn't be sure the smell came from that gun unless he closely sniffed it. It wouldn't be the first time Battler isn't precise in his assertions. __________________

2009-10-24, 15:25	Link #2604
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I said it in my first answer. The bullet wasn't spent. Battler assumed Natsuhi fired so he reloaded the gun By the way in the anime Battler doesn't reload the gun. It isn't a mistake, because Battler fires a second time in the anime and he reloads the gun before of that. This means DEEN was pretty well aware of how the gun works, they perfectly depicted the mechanism, including the autococking that comes after pulling the lever and the bullet case being ejected. So according to the anime you can be almost certain that Natsuhi didn't fire. __________________

2009-10-24, 16:02	Link #2606
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Yeah I doubt it was a gun that did that mess in ep4. My guess it was the same weapon used in ep3 for the first twilight. What kind of tool can do that? __________________

2009-10-24, 23:34	Link #2611
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Well the reason I compare ep3 and ep4 twilight is the fact that in both cases a shotgun was postulated as being the weapons, however in both cases the shotgun just isn't credible. There would be visible signs left if it's been a shotgun. And how the hell is that Nanjo can't tell apart a shotgun wound from a spear wound? __________________

2009-10-25, 00:56	Link #2612
Escargotage I want to believe. Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pennsylvania Age: 33	Am I the only one who thought (in the manga, anyway) that their faces didn't look smashed, but rather melted off? I didn't realize they'd be smashed in half until the next chapter when someone mentioned it, and until I started playing the VN and had them say it. __________________

2009-10-24, 15:06	Link #2601
scwizard Starcraft Wizard Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 34	Battler smelled smoke coming out of the gun. Just because he didn't visually perceive smoke coming out of the gun, doesn't mean he didn't perceive smoke coming out of the gun. Smokeless bullets are impossible, the Winchester used bullets without visible smoke.

2009-10-24, 15:34	Link #2605
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	If Natsuhi had fired, there's no guarantee Battler would notice any damage. She could've fired into the floor down the hallway, or into one of the dark rooms, so no one would've realized she'd missed or fired at nothing. Likewise, Battler noticed nothing to suggest a gun was used on everyone in ep4 (you'd think if someone used a shotgun or magnum at close range there'd be bullet holes all over the house). That could mean there wasn't a gun used, or it could mean Battler is just inattentive about that (or the writer doesn't care). Then again, he noticed the holes in Kyrie's room, so...

2009-10-24, 16:47	Link #2608
Renall BUY MY BOOK!!! Join Date: May 2009	I think you mean the ep1 first twilight, if you mean smashed heads. The best way to smash a head like that is a large blunt object. To avoid hearing gunfire or seeing bullet holes, a weapon such as a sledgehammer or other heavy blunt object could have been used. It seems entirely possible that people who have their faces smashed are killed by some other means, and the killer then smashes their heads to conceal the actual means of death. For instance, if people were poisoned and died from the poison, or shot in the head with a lower-caliber gun (so the bullet doesn't penetrate and leave holes in the house). The killer then could smash their heads with a hammer, and the gore would cover up the rest. This would also explain the uniformity of the ep4 wounds; everyone was killed first, then smashed after, either each time a group of people died or after everyone had died. It goes without saying that the person smashing faces need not be the murderer, although I can't imagine why someone would go and do that if not.

2009-10-24, 21:24	Link #2609
DesuX2 Member Join Date: May 2008	Something I realized, Virgilia said something about not being able to use endless magic to revive something permanently when she did it for the urn in episode 3, isn't that some foreshadowing that even if Battler wins the game, his family is still dead desu?

2009-10-25, 02:32	Link #2615
scwizard Starcraft Wizard Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 34	What theories are out there, concerning the deaths in the chapel, other than "Rosa did it"? Spoiler for image: Sadly, rule four of knox contradicts this theory.

2009-10-25, 02:43	Link #2617
scwizard Starcraft Wizard Join Date: Jun 2008 Age: 34	Care to provide a link or something, or repost it?

2009-10-25, 02:58	Link #2618
luckyssol Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2009	I posted a theory a while back that basically said that anyone could have murdered the six in the chapel if a second key to the chapel existed at the time. There is no red declaration saying that multiple chapel keys did not exist when the six were murdered. However, the second key would have had to have been destroyed after the first twilight to get past the red declaration of "There's only one key to the chapel.". The main problem with this theory is that why would someone destroy the second key? Anyway, that's just an alternate theory as you requested. Rosa being the culprit of the first twilight seems the most logical. __________________ [...]

2009-10-25, 03:02	Link #2619
LyricalAura Dea ex Kakera Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Sea of Fragments	There's also the "Kumasawa's Halloween Party" and "Murder Mystery Game" theories, both of which have a similar premise. The chapel was never actually declared to be a closed room in red. You can get around the whole mess of red involving the key by supposing that the door was just left unlocked all the way from when Maria received the key until Rosa got it out of the envelope in the morning. That requires Rosa and Genji (at least) to have been basically putting on an act for some reason up until they went inside the chapel and found the bodies, though. The reason varies between "Kumasawa was setting up a Halloween party for Maria" and "some people on the island are staging a murder mystery game."