Macross Delta - Episode 19 Discussion / Poll

[magnuskn]

Yeah, the series would have cleary benefitted from a third cour to flesh out the world (and the characters) a bit more. I also said this upthread, that time is getting short for the series, although I said it in the context of a "big bad" to appear and unite the two factions. But the lack of world development, especially for the Windermerans, whose whole system of society and economy makes barely any sense, is also an obvious factor which seems to be rushed.

[Thess]

Macross Delta's biggest strength is the world building. I think it would have been better to keep things simpler to focus on how they explore those planets but it got overly messy. There are multiple of sides and conspiracies and big bads or bigger bads. Roid, Epsilon, those NUNS higher ups are candidates to watch out, sadly Mikumo too.

Roid is the good person who lost his way consumed by his ambition/ideals/whatever. Newtype description, not even he realizes what he's doing anymore which happens often on 'brainy' scientists. Evil NUNS Seele-style council are your caricature greedy villains. Epsilon are opportunists who take advantage in selling weapons and add more fuel to the fire between those two sides. Mikumo might become a problem because of drama sake before Walkure saves her. You know Woobie Destroyer of Worlds style. Just my opinion because Heinz is obviously not really an issue anymore when Mikumo can overpower him like that.

Keith's pretty obviously going to turn against Roid (probably this will be the game changer Hermann and Cassim were looking for, too, as they are itching to quit this. This would obviously influenced Bogue because he idolizes Keith and looks up Herman, no idea about the twins because they barely have characterization). They even made up a completely new character to speed things up (and from the magazine interview summaries, they are fundamentally different. Keith wants "To fly on their sky" - aka true freedom for Windermere. Roid wants "to control all the skies they fly on" - aka conquest). Frankly speaking, Keith should take responsibility and become the ruler on his brother's place because this wouldn't have happened if he hadn't quit his claim to the throne to fly instead. It was similar to how Alto ran away his home and quit being the kabuki heir, but more dramatic of course... but similar rebellion against daddy stuff. And without a Sheryl smoothing things out for him. Granted, this made me laugh because I had a flashback of a Frontier spread. His insistence to refuse to be a prince and play aloof in front of Heinz allowed Roid to get this far.

[magnuskn]

I disagree on this, at least that Delta overall is strong on world building. It certainly is strong on working with the existing world building which has happened in the other series and creating a narrative which mixes and meshes what happened in the past in those series.

However, world building also means working with the current setting and there Delta falls flat on its face. Case in point, Windermere.

What do we know about Windermere? They have a monarchy, they export apples, they are physically superior, have innate fold receptors and they die after 30 years.

What do we not know about them?

- How does their civil society work?
- How is the military organized?
- Is the support for the royal house unanimous? If not, who are the people who vehemently oppose the current war of conquest, who are the people who just go along with it?
- Windermere only exports Apples? Why is that even allowed, if they are under a quarantine?
- When is the emotional age of maturity for a Windermeran? When is the biological age of maturity for them? Heinz supposedly is nine years old, while Frejya is now 16 and she had been harangued to marry and get childred for the past three years. When is the big jump in maturity from child to adult?
- How do the Windermerans plan to even rule the galaxy?

I don't expect anyone to answer all this, I just made a random list of questions which hang over the faction of Windermere for me and which the show has refused to even try to explore. And there are many more questions in regards to Chaos, Ragna and NUNS which could also be explored with more time.

Hence, what I mean is that the show is pretty bad at fleshing out its current setting, but it works quite well with the lore of the Macross universe overall. So, for me, it's half-bad, half-good in worldbuilding.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

However, world building also means working with the current setting and there Delta falls flat on its face. Case in point, Windermere.

What do we know about Windermere? They have a monarchy, they export apples, they are physically superior, have innate fold receptors and they die after 30 years.

What do we not know about them?

- How does their civil society work?
- How is the military organized?
- Is the support for the royal house unanimous? If not, who are the people who vehemently oppose the current war of conquest, who are the people who just go along with it?
- Windermere only exports Apples? Why is that even allowed, if they are under a quarantine?
- When is the emotional age of maturity for a Windermeran? When is the biological age of maturity for them? Heinz supposedly is nine years old, while Frejya is now 16 and she had been harangued to marry and get childred for the past three years. When is the big jump in maturity from child to adult?
- How do the Windermerans plan to even rule the galaxy?

See most of those questions have been replied in their manga, in the novel, and in magazines with random infodump about the cluster's planet. The show of course has to catch up. If you want I can answer with what I know from that, and the people who write this is involved in the screenplay and scenario of the show:

Windermere: farmer planet but rich in fold quartz (uniquely in the Galaxy it seems) and other prized metals/minerals.
Military: Aerial Knights' role is to protect "Windermere's sky." It's very rare for a son of a noble family or royalty to be an Aerial Knight (Keith had to quit his claim on the throne to enter the Academy). Their role is of protectors and seem mournful about fighting (turning their white wings "black"). That was in the past, but Herman does use this in episode 15. There are two important ranks that we know: Holy Knight, the Prime Minister, who commands the whole army. White Knight, best and first Knight of sorts, with his own special squad that are the elites. The problem in Delta is that we've only followed the White Knight squad mostly. The only known military and royal or noble members of the Aerial Knights are Bogue and Keith who are a minority.
War: We don't even know if most of them know there's a war or the kind of war there is. We've only seem merchant families and nobility aware, but they rely on what Roid informs them as had zero idea about what transpired in the show. They were fairly against the change of plans too but Roid timely made their support to the young King, the support of his cause which they weren't aboard on.
Maturity: According to one of those magazine guides, they age and mature exactly as humans (so a 9 years old brain isn't fully developed to take those decisions, he's still a kid). But when they are in their late 20s to early 30s, their bodies begin to rapidly age and 'crack', like a crystallization process, iirc. Some are afflicted to this earlier (Heinz's mother is an example). Yes, they have to marry young, when they first reach their puberty because of this. That Freyja or Cassim are wiser beyond their years is due to personal experience than something inherent in their species. I speculate (just a personal speculation) that they crack because of the fold waves (look how Cassim began to 'age' because of being overexposed to Heinz' singing which was amplificated by the ruins fold waves).

[Mistyclear]

Freyja is 15 not 16 though....

[magnuskn]

Thanks for the information, that was very helpful. But, as you also said, at least some of this should have been explained in the show. You can't rely on people reading all tie-in materials to get a good narrative sense of the world.

Anyway, for now I'm pretty unsure where the show will go with the current situation. Contrary to you, I don't think that it is so very sure that we'll go with the standard Macross tropes.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Thanks for the information, that was very helpful. But, as you also said, at least some of this should have been explained in the show. You can't rely on people reading all tie-in materials to get a good narrative sense of the world.

I agree with this. The show is messy because it's overambitious and too overly complex with its subplots (while lacking episodes to showcase it). The ideas are great, but the execution isn't as great. That's why I felt the first novel did a better job...it also didn't try to yank our chain with 'twist reveals'.

[ippus]

...so I just finished 13-14 after a long haitus.


I feel like i'm watching a totally different show to a lot of the shippers here LOL I'm going to keep going till I catch up completely first...

[stray]

Originally Posted by Thess

I agree with this. The show is messy because it's overambitious and too overly complex with its subplots (while lacking episodes to showcase it). The ideas are great, but the execution isn't as great. That's why I felt the first novel did a better job...it also didn't try to yank our chain with 'twist reveals'.

I can't really speak to the novelization but... to me most of the subplots kind of seem like throwaways that basically just exist for the sake of (side) character exposition. I'm really starting to think its less about being ambitious and more about just being lazy.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by stray

I can't really speak to the novelization but... to me most of the subplots kind of seem like throwaways that basically just exist for the sake of (side) character exposition. I'm really starting to think its less about being ambitious and more about just being lazy.

Kawamori just wanted to make an aerial combat show about pilots getting powered up by their idol partners and sponsors insisted to make a srss war story. This is the result.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You are skipping my point. Why is it that Winderemere is blaming NUNS for a bomb that killed more of NUNS' own people than Windermerians?

You are asking the wrong question. Why was it neccessary to drop a dimensional bomb? There were victims on both side who had nothing to do with the war but were dragged or even killed. According to the reaction of Arad and Robert Kino, at least it should be viewed skeptical if the decision to do so was correct or was there another reason to hide something.

The bomb won the war, but was it morally neccessary to use against friend and foe?

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

NUNS is not responsible for singing, really. One could say their disregard for it in battle has said enough. They're responsible for other situations. And, for the record, the pilot who dropped a bomb on Windermere did it in order to secure their [Windermere] independence from NUNS and effectively won because of it, Father Hentai. Is it a bad decision because of this war going on now? Yes, especially because his son is now involved and is likely to be killed for his father's misguided choices. However, it's as Global says in SDF-1, war is not without sacrifices for the sake of a brighter tomorrow (in his own words of course).

In my opinion it is not about effectivity but about moral understanding. The bomb dropping on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were effectively but today, morally nobody would to it. This is where the twist is. Both, the use of the dimensional bomb and the use of mind control are wrong. And why? Because one action leads to the other action along with other political matters.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

You are skipping my point. Why is it that Winderemere is blaming NUNS for a bomb that killed more of NUNS' own people than Windermerians?

Spoiler for novels:

In case you didn't notice, King Gramia thought that NUNS were soulless monsters who would bomb planets and kill their own people for lols or ambition. That's exactly what his reaction to them bombing Ragna was like. It validated his impression. Furthermore, millions of civilians died apparently. And so did the White Knight's squad forces and the White Knight himself according to the novelization. Lord Andria, member of SMS and hero who helped Frontier against Galaxy, taking down at least two Lucifers. He tried to stop the mysterious bomber but was caught up by the explosion so he died. Stop being foolish to think Windermere did it when their people launched an attack against the 'unidentified VF' that was heading to the area. Keith was one of the few survivors who was scarred by what happened there. He barely survived because he had given orders to fly higher in case there would be reinforcements, he was tasked to intercept them. But this event haunted and marked him, before it, he was no different from the typical "I just wanna fly and I have family issues, but I don't know what I'm fighting for/what is a home like?" Macross protagonist. Hopefully, "Scar Requiem" will finally allow the anime stop pushing the reveals and the backstory to address it.

Novelization already completely spoil Windermere didn't do it or wanted for such a thing to happen. If it wasn't obvious because King Gramia hates that kind of thing and how both he and Keith were obsessed with the scar on their planet as something shameful they couldn't stop and were unable to protect their people. Gramia would never do such a thing. Keith's major motivation to fight right now is the fear and dread he experienced that day, he vowed the NUNS wouldn't do that sort of thing again. Yes, their actions were misguided, but they obviously feel threatened and are obliged to their people, first. Nobody is excusing Roid's plans, however, Keith has been turning against him slowly and surely.

Meanwhile NUNS brought an illegal weapon of mass destruction to a planet because they wanted to crush Windermerians and take their fold quartz. Whatever their target was it doesn't matter: they were going to use or threaten to use a Dimensional Eater on people which was forbidden by their own legislation, and then lied to every planet of the cluster to hide their own illegal actions. Whatever they tried to do, from Windermere perspective, doesn't matter. All they know is that they were oppressed for decades by bastards who tried to lord over them, disrespect their lifestyle and people, wanted to steal all their planet's resources and brought a weapon of mass destruction which was forbidden when they decided they were tired of putting up with their mistreament. Then they used it, killed their people including their best pilot and elite squad and later framed them for this. All while putting an embargo on them and assassinating anyone, including their own people, who tried to point out the obvious corruption.

As why it was dropped there, to me, it's obvious that Epsilon had a hand on it (and Wright was probably sabotaged) because they are the ones selling weapons to both sides and without conflict they would be out of business. Nonetheless, this doesn't remove the fact the local comically evil NUNS guys brought a Dimensional Eater to their conflict of Windermere and wanted to conquer that planet because of their natural resources and oppressed them for years, with their plan to install a puppet government there. Windermere's actions now do not whitewash NUNS actions either, neither do they excuse their Ragna bomb to run an experiment, same as Roid's actions in Voldor's last episode. Multiple bad apples of each side isn't exactly an uncommon and shocking plot development.

[wredsa]

Originally Posted by Mistyclear

Really? considering the heavy emphasis that this episode placed on DYRL...the movie of the original Macross not to mention the green skinned Zentradi are also from that, I would think to take that movie at least as canon.

That might be true but I found Macross and Macross Frontier tv series more interesting than their movie counterparts

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Why was it neccessary to drop a dimensional bomb?

Because, in their eyes, negotiation is never happening because NUNS did not care about their rights as citizens on their planet. And if you remember, pilots who were in NUNS assisted them by giving them a bomb in the first place, of which Wright dropped for them. Plus, because NUNS is on their planet, observing their tactical unit, I really don't think launching a surprise attack would be very effective or gain victory.

Think about places USA invaded, or Germany invading France, etc. Did they consider the rights of the people who lived there? No. And what is a natural response to this? War. Casualties happen on both sides regardless of where the fight is located. And NUNS decided to create a base right on Windermere.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The bomb dropping on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were effectively but today, morally nobody would to it. This is where the twist is. Both, the use of the dimensional bomb and the use of mind control are wrong. And why? Because one action leads to the other action along with other political matters.

You know, talking about real life war does not 100% fall into Macross. First off, no nation could really go by in this lifetime by building a nuclear bomb without mass media discovering it (especially in Russia), and second, bringing up Hiroshima is a bad example because Japan hit Pearl Harbor first. Also, Japan did as the Zentradi and Vajra did in their wars: forgive and move on. I mean, did you even listen to Global in SDF-1 at Max and Millia's wedding? He basically said his piece about "war" (even so much as to reference Pearl Harbor in saying "our neighboring countries") and he says "we all forgave each other then, why not now?"

Right now, Windermere is bitter about Wright, who dropped a bomb on their planet. If Hayate could gain their forgiveness for his father, perhaps a new leaf could turn over for them. But of course, they'll never overlook NUNS because after all, first impressions say it all and NUNS has been forever treating them like tools...

[stray]

Originally Posted by Thess

Kawamori just wanted to make an aerial combat show about pilots getting powered up by their idol partners and sponsors insisted to make a srss war story. This is the result.

Nah this time I think Kawamori wanted a shojo manga starring Freyja... although I do think its kind of backfiring.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Because, in their eyes, negotiation is never happening because NUNS did not care about their rights as citizens on their planet. And if you remember, pilots who were in NUNS assisted them by giving them a bomb in the first place, of which Wright dropped for them. Plus, because NUNS is on their planet, observing their tactical unit, I really don't think launching a surprise attack would be very effective or gain victory.

Did you even pay attention to Gramia's characterization or about any Windermere Aerial Knight characterization? They are all mightily pissed off about the fold bomb and Gramia is revolted to see anyone hurting their own people and a planet as the NUNS did in episode 13.

Of course, let's not even bring up the novel already stated Windermere had nothing to do with that. Did you overlook the simple Arab cosplayer merchant profiting of the war which were the ones that armed Windermere in first place?

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Thess

Did you even pay attention to Gramia's characterization or about any Windermere Aerial Knight characterization? They are all mightily pissed off about the fold bomb and Gramia is revolted to see anyone hurting their own people and a planet as the NUNS did in episode 13.

I know they're pissed, I did not overlook this, as I did say:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Right now, Windermere is bitter about Wright, who dropped a bomb on their planet.

Even so, as I said earlier, forgiveness is rising up because the Aerial Knights, in these last 2 episodes (and especially Cassim), are beginning to grow conflicted about this war because of what Roid is doing now. I'd not be surprised if the Aerial Knights come around by the series' conclusion. After all, I wonder who will be the worse of the evils then: NUNS (responsible for its beginning), Roid (who is abusing his power), or Walkure (who is trying to create peace)?

Regardless, all this talk about the NUNS and war stuff does belong in this thread, right?
(And I'm also tired of Father Hentai asking why questions with episodes still to air to answer them...)

[ippus]

OKAY I CAUGHT UP

As far as the current episode is concerned--- HOLY CRAP it is LITERALLY an entire episode of exposition. I'd care for it if the discussion of certain 'theories' weren't so obvious already. Macross Frontier has already used music as a weapon, the idea that the songstresses (Other than Kaname) are reacting so naively to the theory actually really annoys me.

Also...the more I watched the episodes the more I felt like.........Messer's character was uneeded- or at the very least his death was a completely pointless thing to add into the story. To me it felt like it took a hold of so many episodes that were better off used for developing other storylines rather than investing so much good on a character that wasn't going to be around for half the show.

I also keep reading about how Mirage doesn't get much going on....?
...
I'm sorry guys but what the hell? I admit it was my fault for reading people's summaries over watching it for myself, but Delta was getting so boring I had to take that break. Having marathoned the episodes back to back, I genuinely don't understand the reasons people are getting mad at Mirage other than- they just happen to like Freyja or wanted an epic warrior girl that was- given the set up never going to happen. There were too many OPs introduced too early in the game.

As in I think she had a lot more presence than I was expecting in the show? I mean I get that a lot of her bigger actions revolve around saving Hayate's ass, but despite all the flowery language I can argue that Freyja's been mostly preoccupied with Hayate so far as well so........idunno. Just because she aint singing songs about it doesn't mean her development doesn't exist.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by ippus

I also keep reading about how Mirage doesn't get much going on....?
...
I'm sorry guys but what the hell? I admit it was my fault for reading people's summaries over watching it for myself, but Delta was getting so boring I had to take that break. Having marathoned the episodes back to back, I genuinely don't understand the reasons people are getting mad at Mirage other than- they just happen to like Freyja or wanted an epic warrior girl that was- given the set up never going to happen. There were too many OPs introduced too early in the game.

As in I think she had a lot more presence than I was expecting in the show? I mean I get that a lot of her bigger actions revolve around saving Hayate's ass, but despite all the flowery language I can argue that Freyja's been mostly preoccupied with Hayate so far as well so........idunno. Just because she aint singing songs about it doesn't mean her development doesn't exist.

The problem is that the positive vibe between Hayate and Freyja had too much focus while Mirage stood in the shadows of both. Until now she is only seen as a supporter. We could now argue that she could be replaced. In my opinion no, because all who would come in mind are all male, dead or half fish.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Thess

Just my opinion because Heinz is obviously not really an issue anymore when Mikumo can overpower him like that.

I don't think Roid's gonna give up on Heinz anytime soon. No matter what Mikumo's capable of, he still thinks Heinz is even better. He was clear about that this episode. He went as far as to claim that Heinz might become the fucking king of the Protoculture.