Honey and Clover II

[brightredglow]

@mangafanatic: Great post. You brought up points about the series that I had forgotten.

@studiocode: You have obviously gotten your mind made up and I won't try to change it. And yes, I gladly admit to being "outrageous and disgusting" if it means that I viewed the series as a whole rather than for one aspect (romance) and two sentences in one episode. I admit that I am basing my "review" within the context of the story. Because of that, I do feel that the outcome was not a surprise. The manga-ka laid the foundation for the outcome that was visible if one was paying attention.

As for the "unrequited love" aspect of the series, it was used well in that it allowed for character growth and I found the ending positive and hopeful and given their expressions at the end, the characters were doing just fine too. Ayu didn't get Mayama but she was moving on. Morita went back to a place that allowed him to utilize his talents. Takemoto followed through with his plans to work with the temple restorers which is what he had planned even before Hagu's accident. He was also able to say that while he and Hagu never became romantically involved, he was glad to have fallen in love with her because the experience propelled him forward in ways that may not have happened otherwise.

Again, this was a slice of life series and romance was a part of it, but not the whole of it.

I'll concede this though. Hagu did choose the person who would help her survive and thrive and I give her (and the manga-ka) credit for that.

[musouka]

Originally Posted by studiocode

Are you afraid to admit that you enjoyed an ending where a girl and her surrogate father established a relationship?

Give me definitive proof that Hagu saw Shuuji as a father.

YOU view their relationship as father/daughter. That does not mean THEY think of their relationship in those terms.

And seeing as how they are the ones who decided to enter the relationship, and they are not actually father and daughter, all this protesting begins to sound like someone that was so overly invested in Morita/Hagu that they ignored key things about both their characters. I'm sorry you wanted an unrealistic ending where Morita and Hagu both threw away everything for love, but it's not happening and those of us that didn't take violent issue with the ending like you did are not sick, or lacking a romantic spirit.

[kauldron26]

Originally Posted by musouka

Give me definitive proof that Hagu saw Shuuji as a father.

YOU view their relationship as father/daughter. That does not mean THEY think of their relationship in those terms.

And seeing as how they are the ones who decided to enter the relationship, and they are not actually father and daughter, all this protesting begins to sound like someone that was so overly invested in Morita/Hagu that they ignored key things about both their characters. I'm sorry you wanted an unrealistic ending where Morita and Hagu both threw away everything for love, but it's not happening and those of us that didn't take violent issue with the ending like you did are not sick, or lacking a romantic spirit.

so in season 1 when Shuu went away with his mentor, and Hagu and shuu were shown crying because of how much they miss each other, those feelings were not of familial love?? wtf?? ur telling me that they were of romantic love?

And then just how in the hell do u justify a man being well over 30, that takes a girl who is off his blood, and raises her as his own only for him to harbor feelings for her?? how is that not wrong? how do u develop feelings for someone that is family and ur a legal guardian?? Thats basically like u adopting a child who happens to be related to u, and then as u watch her come home from school, as u watch her do her homework, as u watch her go thru life, and then watch her grow u begin to harbor romantic feelings, are u telling me ur not the least bit repulsed by that?? do u watch Law and Order SVU?? do u know that guys like that end up serving time in the big house? and that such feelings are considered predatorial berhavior according to DSM IV manual of psychosexual behavior??

I majored in psych in college, and one of theses revolved around the expression of sexual nature in relation to the object of desire, and i am telling u that those feelings in a western perspective are not considered in the least bit appropriate. Maybe it is in Japan, after all lolicons are condoned, but imagine if the cops came to ur hows and saw sexually arousing pics of Shana, hagu or Zero and i assure u ur laptop will be ceased and u will be brought in for questioning. However i am assuming it is accepted in Japan. This is another issue that i am biased about because of my psych background, my psych education tells me the attraction to "loli" characters are not normal because ur sexual attraction or desires are projected on an object that is not fit for such a relation.

Now in conclusion from a western perspective, combine that Hagu looks like she is 12, and then the fact that a grown man well over 30 has had feelings for her since she was a minor, then combine the fact that they are related by blood and then finally combine that he took her in as his own. These characteristics believe it or not According the American Psychological Association classify Shuu as an individual with sexually predatorial tendencies.

[mangafanatic]

Originally Posted by kauldron26

so in season 1 when Shuu went away with his mentor, and Hagu and shuu were shown crying because of how much they miss each other, those feelings were not of familial love?? wtf?? ur telling me that they were of romantic love?

Have you never heard of a deep friendship turning into love? I know many people who saw the person who is now their significant other as nothing more than their best friend-- and then it became something more. I see no evidence that Shuuji has been pining after Hagu since she was nine or something. Perhaps the twenty something who reached for strength in herself-- the young girl who was so obviously now a woman-- perhaps it was THAT Hagu that Shuuji fell in love with and not the 12 year old that so many people sadly confine Hagu to being.

And then just how in the hell do u justify a man being well over 30, that takes a girl who is off his blood, and raises her as his own only for him to harbor feelings for her??how is that not wrong? how do u develop feelings for someone that is family and ur a legal guardian??

He didn't raise her. As we've established, her grandmother raised her. Hagu came to him at the start of her college years-- meaning she was not a minor. Yet another issue-- there is no indicator that Shuuji is "well over thirty." He could easily be thirty two (see my previous post for the information concerning ages.) Furthermore, Shuuji is Hagu's second cousin (her father and Shuuji are cousins, making Hagu his SECOND cousin.) Marriage between second cousins, to the best of my understanding, is legal in the United States. Moving on, Hagu is in college. Which means she's atleast 18 (she was in fact 19) which means she is an ADULT and has no legal guardian. When posting in a discussion, please remember the facts.

[D]o u know that guys like that end up serving time in the big house? and that such feelings are considered predatorial berhavior according to DSM IV manual of psychosexual behavior??

As one who has studied law, let me say that you are simply wrong. He would be considered predatory if he had made any move on Hagu. Let me ask you-- did you think that Shuuji was in love with Hagu even a moment before he confessed? You outrage would suggest you did not. One is considered PREDATORY only if he makes advances, which Shuuji never did nor ever would. He may love Hagu romantically, but he also loves her platonically and wants the best for her. He NEVER pressed his feelings on her. He never even told her for goodness sake. I'm a romantic at heart-- but I'm a romantic who believe that loving someone means wanting what's best for them. Shuuji certainly does that for Hagu. He was ready for her to be with Morita (remember, when Takemoto was flipping out when Morita and Hagu disappeared. Takemoto desperately asks Shuu-chan what they're going to do. Shuuji simply says "It's fine. She's with Morita." He's ready for her to be happy. That, is a real man.

He is most certainly NOT predatory.

This is another issue that i am biased about because of my psych background, my psych education tells me the attraction to "loli" characters are not normal because ur sexual attraction or desires are projected on an object that is not fit for such a relation.

Now in conclusion from a western perspective, combine that Hagu looks like she is 12, and then the fact that a grown man well over 30 has had feelings for her since she was a minor, then combine the fact that they are related by blood and then finally combine that he took her in as his own. These characteristics believe it or not According the American Psychological Association classify Shuu as an individual with sexually predatorial tendencies.

And here's where I think most people get it wrong. You all assume that what Shuuji was in love with was Hagu's body. Have you ever loved someone who you wouldn't really be physically attracted to? I know that I've been romantically interested in people only after I got to know them. It was not their appearance but it was who they were that was attractive. If you think Hagu is just a tiny body and nothing more-- you've missed the beauty of Honey and Clover. We saw a Hagu who was somewhat whiny grow into a woman. Yes, she's blonde. Yes, she's tiny, but the courage with which she's faced the prospect of loosing the thing most precious to her (along with some VERY complicated relational drama) shows that the person that Hagu is is a woman. This-- I'm am convinced-- is what Shuuji loves. If he wanted her body, he could have had it: easy as pie. He didn't speak because what he wanted was Hagu the person. Not Hagu the body. He wanted her to come to him when she was ready, because he loves her as a person not as an object of some sexual fetish. That is why he didn't say anything. That is why he completely cleared his life for Hagu without telling her. NEVER did Shuuji ever force himself upon her. If she, a woman who has been mature past her years by many very difficult curcuimstances, chooses him, so be it.

[musouka]

Watch the show again. Shuuji is not her legal guardian. He is not her father. There is no proof that she ever thought of him as her father.

Is Morita a pedophile too? Hagu does look young. I guess anyone that fell in love with Hagu is a pedophile. How can you support Hagu and Morita as a couple?

[kauldron26]

Originally Posted by mangafanatic

As one who has studied law, let me say that you are simply wrong. He would be considered predatory if he had made any move on Hagu. Let me ask you-- did you think that Shuuji was in love with Hagu even a moment before he confessed? You outrage would suggest you did not. One is considered PREDATORY only if he makes advances, which Shuuji never did nor ever would. He may love Hagu romantically, but he also loves her platonically and wants the best for her. He NEVER pressed his feelings on her. He never even told her for goodness sake.

He is most certainly NOT predatory.

I appreciate ur response, and i am even more glad that i am talking to an intellectual and not a fanboy. Now since u study law, and i study psych u know there is a difference between intent and action, but when an idividual is classified to have a certain predisposition to his family members, i know he is not viewed as a perp in the eyes of the law, but at this point arent his actions abnormal?? As someone that studied law, i know u definitely remember the Woody Allen issue from 30 yrs ago. Even though his actions were not considered predatory, his actions were still condemned because he was a father figure to the child. Am i wrong?

[npal]

Originally Posted by kauldron26

and that such feelings are considered predatorial berhavior according to DSM IV manual of psychosexual behavior??

Now in conclusion from a western perspective, combine that Hagu looks like she is 12, and then the fact that a grown man well over 30 has had feelings for her since she was a minor, then combine the fact that they are related by blood and then finally combine that he took her in as his own. These characteristics believe it or not According the American Psychological Association classify Shuu as an individual with sexually predatorial tendencies.

BTW, could you give me the DSM page, cause from a casual browsing I didn't spot sexual predatorial behavior.

Your psych background should also tell you that there is a serious debate on whether sexual psychopathologies should be removed from the DSM altogether, a debate started because of homosexual movements against discrimination as well as other occurrences.

Obviously another reason for debating on the removal is that some sexual disorders, mainly paraphilias, are punishable by law, but their presence in the DSM means that there's psychopathology involved in the situation, which can favorably serve the offenders. Law doesn't pass the same punishment to the mentally ill as it does to everyone else.

Not to mention that the LAW is subject to change. Adultery was punishable by law. According to you, adultery should be in the next DSM as a sexually chaotic behavior or something. Needless to say, it's no longer a crime in most states, but it can be used during divorce trials, etc. So, don't take the law for granted, even if laws involving pedophilia or necrophilia shouldn't be changed for various reasons.

Also, for all your psych background, you just passed judgment on someone you consider mentally ill (as per the DSM) and that he should rot in jail.

My personal opinion aside, psychological abuse is NOT punishable by law unless it leads to criminal activities. Even if there IS psychological abuse involved somewhere, as long as it doesn't lead to dysfunctional behavior of the individual involved or criminal acts, it's neither a crime, nor can it be considered psychopathology.

Bear in mind that something is not considered psychopathology unless it affects the duties, social and personal life, and quality of life of an individual. Speaking of which, neither Shuu or Hagu seem particularly displeased with the outcome. Also, looking like 12 and being, say, 30 doesn't make you 12, you're still an adult and can make choices for yourself.

So, I suggest that when a case similar to Shuu's comes into your office, you don't cry "WTF you piece of MFpedophile sh!t, F. off, you pervert f*ck"!

PS: Being condemned by society for anything doesn't automatically make you universally wrong, it makes you wrong in that particular society at that particular time, nothing more, nothing less.

[kauldron26]

Originally Posted by npal

So, I suggest that when a case similar to Shuu's comes into your office, you don't cry "WTF you piece of MFpedophile sh!t, F. off, you pervert f*ck"!

PS: Being condemned by society for anything doesn't automatically make you universally wrong, it makes you wrong in that particular society at that particular time, nothing more, nothing less.

u are absolutely right. I do not and would not condemn Shuu's character, and i never said it was perverted. I stated that the mangaka's choice on shuus convictions and actions ruined the story. And i guess saying "gross" came across that way. I retract that statement and apologize if i caused any offense. However, do u think Shuu's confessions damaged or ehanced the impact of the conclusion of the story??

Also when society condemns an action that seems immoral, the action is not a impeded by law, however dont u also think that Shuuji confessing at such a crucial time of Hagu's growth is advantageous??

It is truly awesome to see such intellectual responses. Thank you. I guess i've been used to fanboys who just start cursing or flaming without posing or responding to an intellectual arguement.

[mangafanatic]

Originally Posted by kauldron26

I appreciate ur response, and i am even more glad that i am talking to an intellectual and not a fanboy. Now since u study law, and i study psych u know there is a difference between intent and action, but when an idividual is classified to have a certain predisposition to his family members, i know he is not viewed as a perp in the eyes of the law, but at this point arent his actions abnormal?? As someone that studied law, i know u definitely remember the Woody Allen issue from 30 yrs ago. Even though his actions were not considered predatory, his actions were still condemned because he was a father figure to the child. Am i wrong?

Here's where I think you're wrong: In your use of the word "child." As we've established, Hagu was 19 when she came to Tokyo and to the university. We have no indication that Shuuji loved her before that. Additionally, the comparison to Woody Allen doesn't stand. He was actually condemned [by society] because he was the stepfather of Soon-Yi and he took pornographic photos of her. He was her real father. Not a father figure. Not a mentor. Shuuji is not a father. He's a father figure in our mind. We cannot know how she views him. In light of the fact that Hagu has asked him to give her his life-- what does that mean? We can't know for certain, but it might mean that she's accepted Shuuji's feelings. They're not father and daughter. They're not brother and sister. Hagu has every right to decide what to do with the reserved feelings of her friend Shuuji.

Are his action unusual? Yes, because not that many people fall in love with their second cousins. Just because it's not usual doesn't mean it's wrong. It's also unsual that my friend's parents are ten years apart, but that doesn't make her father a pervert. Shuuji hasn't been staring into Hagu's bedroom as she grew up. He grandmother raised her. They were friends. She grew into a woman, and he fell in love with her. I don't see a correlation between Hagu, a distant relation of Shuuji [distance enough that the law permits such a marriage] and Soon-Yi [who married a man who was once her actual step father.]

[Lilith]

Yes, yes, yes! Thank you everyone for understanding Shuu x Hagu sitiuation. I greatly appreciate your efforts.

musouka reminded me of an important point I stupidly forgot about. "Give us definitive proof that Hagu saw Shuuji as a father"! If I recall correctly, I think Hagu once described Shuu as her "rain"?

But I still would've liked to see Morita x Hagu. Ah, the fangirl in my heart.

[mangafanatic]

Originally Posted by Lilith

But I still would've liked to see Morita x Hagu. Ah, the fangirl in my heart.

Some time in the future, I ultimately would too. However, what I want most is for everyone's best interests to be served. Perhaps that happens when Hagu is with Shuuji. *shrug/sigh*

[tritoch]

Wow.. this thread is is is.. ALIVE!? haha

All of you have valid points.. but let me show you my POV of things. First of all, go watch episode 10 and 11 of Season 2.

The contrast here is the mindset between Shuu and Hagu. "We" the viewers think that it is a father-daughter type of relationship. But in closer observation, only Hagu actually has this mindset.

Shuu, for the most part of the show hid his true feelings for Hagu and eventhough we have a few glimpse [not really glimpse, Shuu was blatant when he went on a trip to Mongolia.. but then again..] of his true feelings, we generally thought that Shuu was the father figure. Until ofcourse, episode 10 and 11 of Season 2 were he finally made his move.

Hagu.. ahh Hagu.. is what we call an introvert [she showed signs of it in season 1] Her dependance on Shuu was a result of her circumstance. Another reason that pops up is Shuu's connection with Art, here is a person who has known her since she was a kid. Ofcourse she'll be with familiar territory with Shuu than anyone else.

As to why Hagu chose Shuu over Morita.. Quite simple.. Morita was content in having Hagu. Hagu could never accept it cause she valued her Art over her life. She chose Shuu because Shuu would want her to do art again.

Now.. Watch episode 12.. Morita x Hagu shippers like me would cringe just seeing Hagu look interested over the Tv were Morita was featured.

Heh, just my two cents. Maybe I'm just rationalizing things like why Hagu chose Shuu or not.. heh. oh well.

[AisuruMirai]

Before I begin, I'd like to commend brightredglow for his last few posts--my sentiments exactly. studiocode, so much of the disagreement b/w the two of you stems from your disagreement on what happened in fact in the story. brightredglow doesn't think that Shuuji was confessing his romantic love or that Hagu was choosing a romantic partner, but you do. So it's basically impossible for you to agree on what the message of the show is, right? First, you need to argue about what actually happened......Oh wait, I did that already..... Nevermind.

Originally Posted by musouka

Watch the show again. Shuuji is not her legal guardian. He is not her father. There is no proof that she ever thought of him as her father.

Is Morita a pedophile too? Hagu does look young. I guess anyone that fell in love with Hagu is a pedophile. How can you support Hagu and Morita as a couple?

For a moment I'm going to pretend that I agree w/ the premise that Shuuji is actually romantically interested in Hagu...

What makes the relationship repulsive to some people (maybe most) has nothing to do w/ what Hagu feels toward Shuu & everything to do w/ what he feels toward her. Recall that in episode 2, Shuu says that he's like a father to Hagu. You are right in saying that he is neither her father nor legal guardian nor the one who raised her, but throughout the series (both seasons), his actions betray such sentiment in his own mind, regardless of actual facts. Recall that scene on the park bench; the scene at Hagu's arrival after Shuu's return from Mongolia, which kauldron26 mentioned; the fact that the doctor at the hospital thinks that Shuuji is Hagu's father; Shuu's insecurity at times about his doing what's right for Hagu; the scene when Hagu & Takemoto fall asleep together in ep2; the scene about the "oujisama" & the circular argument; the scene w/ the younger students bringing gifts to Hagu; the photo after Takemoto's return from his bike ride.... I realize it's merely an assumption, my asserting that he acts like a father b/c he thinks & feels like a father. But (not a rhetorical question) is there a more valid assumption to make? If one comes to the conclusion that Shuuji thinks of Hagu as a daughter (he says as much, after all) & also thinks that he is romantically/sexually attracted to her nonetheless, he can't but seem a repulsive human being. To most people. He doesn't seem such a bad guy if you don't think that he's attracted to her in the first place, or if you don't think that he thinks of himself like a father. Is there evidence of the latter?

じゃ、
アイスル未来

[Theowne]

Well...my two cents....

You make it seem as if she didn't choose her PARENT as a LOVE INTEREST.

This is a bit of a leap....first of all, as has been argued countless times (so I won't repeat too much), Shuuji is not Hagu's father or mother. I'm sure we can argue over and over whether he is a surrogate father - but he did not raise her, and only looked after her 24/7 when they moved to the art college.......watch the flashback in the final episode and you will get a more concrete look at how they truly see each other..

You know it's kind of interesting that ever since Shuuji says in ep 12 that he loves Hagu..everyone has jumped on him supposedly being a pervert or pedophile....but when have we ever seen him say that he is sexually attracted or shown any desire for Hagu that way? Never....

Also, Hagu did not choose Shuuji as a love interest, and Shuuji did not choose Hagu as a love interest. They did not get married or anything. While Shuuji admits he has those feelings to Hagu, he also says he will not push them onto her. He is content simply making Hagu happy. Hagu chose Shuuji because he is the one who can truly assist her in achieving what she wants - which is to return to her art.

[AisuruMirai]

Originally Posted by tritoch

T_______T

I am tempted to buy those!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOs.

DO IT!!

Oh well. atleast H&C season 1 is going to the R1! whooppeee

Really? I heard that it was licensed by VIZ Europe or something, & that VIZ licensed the manga in the US, but has the series' 1st season really been licensed here? Really?

Originally Posted by Theowne

You know it's kind of interesting that ever since Shuuji says in ep [11] that he loves Hagu..everyone has jumped on him supposedly being a pervert or pedophile...but when have we ever seen him say that he is sexually attracted or shown any desire for Hagu that way? Never....

Right. & it seems to me that people tend to miss the continuity of the interactions between Shuuji & Morita, which culminate in the confession scene. The two rarely have any serious contact, & those few times they do, they talk about Hagu. In the 1st two interactions, Shuu tries to encourage Morita to talk w/ her & he refuses. Morita openly questions the geniuneness of Shuu's concern for Hagu's future & the quality of her life, which leads Shuu to privately question himself. The 3rd major interaction occurs after Morita has returned from Chicago & goes behind Shuu's back to take Hagu. The two of them have a fistfight, each believing that the other doesn't have any idea what's best for Hagu, each convinced that he himself does. When Shuu throws the money back at Morita & taunts him, Morita knows that he has lost, but he also believes that Hagu has lost. B/c now, more than ever, he doesn't think that Shuu has her best interests in mind. "Do you even love her?!" he asks. This is an insult. Of course he loves her. & how else could he have answered?

じゃ、
アイスル未来

By the way,

Spoiler:

BUY THE DVDs!!! 1ST SEASON, TOO!!!

[aliensporebomb]

My thoughts:

Where Morita blew it:

Spoiler:

When Morita and Hagu spent the night - instead of being supportive
and saying "look, we'll get thru this together, I'll help you heal and
achieve your artistic dreams and we'll create together and show the
world what we can do" what does our boy do?

He does what seems like the right thing: he says "Stop. You don't
have to create." What he's trying to say (awkwardly I think) is that
he would care for her even if she was not artistically exceptional.

Which is a nice sentiment but....that doesn't work for Hagu. If
you remember her vision of her art was a million boxes and there's
only so much time in one life to open as many as you can.

For Hagu, art is everything. Asking her to stop?

It would be like someone telling me tomorrow "you broke
your wrists and you might not get 100% motor function back?
Sell all your guitars and keyboards, there is no hope. By the way,
you have me. Aren't I supportive?"

Horrifying! I can't imagine anything worse.

Those who are...shall we say goaded or hounded by the creative
impulse can no more "stop" creating than they can stop rain
falling from the sky by making a request - it doesn't work that
way - you get attuned to a frequency and it comes from
elsewhere and it just goes thru you. Morita should know
this better than anyone!

If you can't express it you'd go stark raving mad - I totally
understand what Hagu is saying there - that she'd rather
die than not be able to do it - well, it would be trying to
hold back a water faucet with a pinky finger and praying
you had enough strength to hold it back.

He could have turned it around for both of them and they
would have had each other AND their art but he didn't say
quite the right thing.

But there's a chance for them in the future. If this spin-off
turns out to be what I think it could be down the road we might
even live to see it.

Stay tuned for my chapters: "Where Ayu Blew it", "Where Takemoto Blew it"
and "Where Mayama (Almost) Blew It"..

[tritoch]

Originally Posted by aliensporebomb

My thoughts:

Where Morita blew it:

Spoiler:

When Morita and Hagu spent the night - instead of being supportive
and saying "look, we'll get thru this together, I'll help you heal and
achieve your artistic dreams and we'll create together and show the
world what we can do" what does our boy do?

He does what seems like the right thing: he says "Stop. You don't
have to create." What he's trying to say (awkwardly I think) is that
he would care for her even if she was not artistically exceptional.

Which is a nice sentiment but....that doesn't work for Hagu. If
you remember her vision of her art was a million boxes and there's
only so much time in one life to open as many as you can.

For Hagu, art is everything. Asking her to stop?

It would be like someone telling me tomorrow "you broke
your wrists and you might not get 100% motor function back?
Sell all your guitars and keyboards, there is no hope. By the way,
you have me. Aren't I supportive?"

Horrifying! I can't imagine anything worse.

Those who are...shall we say goaded or hounded by the creative
impulse can no more "stop" creating than they can stop rain
falling from the sky by making a request - it doesn't work that
way - you get attuned to a frequency and it comes from
elsewhere and it just goes thru you. Morita should know
this better than anyone!

If you can't express it you'd go stark raving mad - I totally
understand what Hagu is saying there - that she'd rather
die than not be able to do it - well, it would be trying to
hold back a water faucet with a pinky finger and praying
you had enough strength to hold it back.

He could have turned it around for both of them and they
would have had each other AND their art but he didn't say
quite the right thing.

But there's a chance for them in the future. If this spin-off
turns out to be what I think it could be down the road we might
even live to see it.

Stay tuned for my chapters: "Where Ayu Blew it", "Where Takemoto Blew it"
and "Where Mayama (Almost) Blew It"..

Bwuahahahahaha.. This post made me laugh cause its sooo true.

[kauldron26]

after recently getting into the anime NANA, i have painfully realised how much i have been overrating Honey and Clover.... The more i think about it after comparing it to Nana, these characters arent in the least bit realistic. Characters like takemoto, morita and etc, might feel realistic emotions, but they really, really dont take realistic actions. Thats why i still think that the Rika story was still the best. However after watching Nana, the characters are really flawed humans in their 20s. They are callous, they have sex, they have fights, there is heart break, there are rebounds and i dont think there is even a single character to root for. And i guess that is the whole point of a real slice of life series, there is no shounen hero that always overcomes the inevitable.

I guess im going back to my theory that there is no way in hell characters like takemoto and Yamada could be inlove with the same person for close to 4-5 years and not attempt to move on or even stray unconsciously. In Nana as much as we see love, we also see how flawed our perception of love is, and how easy people fall inlove and fall out of love. That has always been my biggest problem with H&C, the concept of love is so idealized, meanwhile in reality we are not even sure if the concept of love actually exists at all.

[npal]

Originally Posted by kauldron26

after recently getting into the anime NANA, i have painfully realised how much i have been overrating Honey and Clover.... The more i think about it after comparing it to Nana, these characters arent in the least bit realistic. Characters like takemoto, morita and etc, might feel realistic emotions, but they really, really dont take realistic actions. Thats why i still think that the Rika story was still the best. However after watching Nana, the characters are really flawed humans in their 20s. They are callous, they have sex, they have fights, there is heart break, there are rebounds and i dont think there is even a single character to root for. And i guess that is the whole point of a real slice of life series, there is no shounen hero that always overcomes the inevitable.

I guess im going back to my theory that there is no way in hell characters like takemoto and Yamada could be inlove with the same person for close to 4-5 years and not attempt to move on or even stray unconsciously. In Nana as much as we see love, we also see how flawed our perception of love is, and how easy people fall inlove and fall out of love. That has always been my biggest problem with H&C, the concept of love is so idealized, meanwhile in reality we are not even sure if the concept of love actually exists at all.

That is still a matter of pure opinion though, as there are a good number of people that do follow that idealized love standard, at least early in their life, whether it's hard to believe or not. And from what I remember, you considered little mention of sex as a flaw, while many of us didn't, which is still a matter of personal opinion. So, I don't think NANA is really that much better, it's just a different angle, and personally, I prefer at least a bit of idealism in an anime, as idealism isn't dead yet, and it has survived worst, so it's not gonna die now either.

Originally Posted by Flux_Pistol

Anata wa baka desu!

Which one?

[kauldron26]

Originally Posted by npal

That is still a matter of pure opinion though, as there are a good number of people that do follow that idealized love standard, at least early in their life, whether it's hard to believe or not. And from what I remember, you considered little mention of sex as a flaw, while many of us didn't, which is still a matter of personal opinion. So, I don't think NANA is really that much better, it's just a different angle, and personally, I prefer at least a bit of idealism in an anime, as idealism isn't dead yet, and it has survived worst, so it's not gonna die now either.



Which one?

lol... through life i have come to learn that having conviction in idealism can really break u especially in ambition, love and life. Im not a cynic i guess i have just adopted a realism stance as opposed to idealism. I appreaciate ur response. However dont u think an idealized love standard is more harmful than beneficial?? im sure thru experience u should have some knowledge on the lashes of idealism.