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npal · 2007-01-17, 11:53

Who said idealism was easy?

We'd be full of visionaries if it was so natural to be one. What I do believe however is that, in the long run, it's good for mankind to have a percentage of people who don't give up idealism. Some things don't need to be too bound by the reality of whatever it is that binds us. After all, from a logical realist's point, a hero is insane but necessary at times.

kauldron26 · 2007-01-17, 11:59

However dont u think an idealized love standard is more harmful than beneficial??

Dont u believe that if you approach the concept of love with a realistic perspective ur more likely to benefit? approaching love with an idealistic perspective is more like to set u up for a downfall. u concur? And dont u think that if the characters in H&C and in real life approach love with a realistic perspective the concept of heartbreak will actually minimilize?

npal · 2007-01-17, 12:33

Not really. If you yearn for idealistic love, you may get nothing, but you may as well get much.

The same happens with people striving for perfection. They might not reach it, but through trying they're certain to reach a good point. If you settle in for mediocrity, the best you can hope for is mediocrity.

An idealist, after all, is an idealist because it's not the profit that moves him but the idea

mangafanatic · 2007-01-17, 15:28

To say that Honey and Clover is unrealistic is to assume that your views on romance are the "realistic" views. The lack of sexual overtures does not, necessarily, represent a misrepresentation of reality, but might simply represent a different view of reality. Love, as it has been best defined for me, is to want what is best for another person. In almost every relationship in Honey and Clover, specifically those involving Hagumi, to make a sexual advance would have represented doing what wasn't best for that person. Ayu making a move on Mayama, for instance, would have simply been a gross instance of ignoring his feelings. Furthermore, you take for granted that all a person wants, ultimately, in a relationship is merely sex. There's still a very large precent of the world's population which views sex as something special to be entered into only in the bound of a serious and committed relationship. As you'll notice, there's very little positive headway made in the relationships in Honey and Clover. If that said, if the Honey and Clover characters saw sex as a step in a committed relationship-- then it would only be natural that sex wouldn't be an integral part of the series. No one really gets into a committed relationship (with the exception of, perhaps, Mayama.)

And I don't see that as idealistic at all. It's a very practical way to live, and it's a way that many people happily do live.

Additionally, if the idealism you're referring to is this idea that people be in love for years with someone who doesn't recipocate their feelings-- that's not really unrealistic. As one who's loved someone who has continued to be interested in others and ignore my feeling, the choice to continue loving someone who cannot love you in return is often not a conscious one. I don't really want to love this person. I just do. Specifically Ayu has built a world around Mayama and the idea of Mayama. Those kinds of emotional commitment and dreams can't simply be abandoned. Regardless of how much emotional pain a more "realistic" view might save, often, we can only be who we are. No matter how much we might hate ourselves for it.

brightredglow · 2007-01-17, 21:31

I love NANA. I adore NANA. I am addicted to NANA and obsess over it way too much.

That said, NANA is strictly soap opera fare. There is very little that is realistic about it. There is only one truly realistic relationship in the entire series and that is Junko and Kyousuke. The rest is pure pulpy soapy goodness with a lot of pretty people doing some really dumb things and then reflecting on their stupidity by saying semi-sorta deep observations in voiceover.

Honey & Clover is not NANA and I am plenty glad for that. H&C is strictly slice of life in which the ordinary and not-so-ordinary go through a period of time in which they become friends, they fall in love (some successfully and some not so successfully), and they are question their future and dreams. It isn't their beginning of life and it isn't their end. It is just a moment in time in which they were, as Takemoto put it, looking for that one thing but very realistically, they, and the audience, knew that the time would come to an end and they would move on.

Of course, H&C does not mimic life in exact realism. If it had, we wouldn't want to watch it, but still, H&C is probably closer to reality of the awkwardness and clumsiness of life, living and love than NANA will ever be. It ran the gamut of Rika's mournful drama to the simplicity of Takemoto having to deal with a love that would never materialize and a lot of the in between. Chances are that Takemoto had already come to terms with it long before the last episode considering he was already planning to go work for the temple restorers even before Hagu's accident. If that isn't constructively moving on, then I don't know what is.

If Takemoto had been in the NANA universe, he would have become a male prostitute to make ends meet since he couldn't find a job so to say that H&C is lesser in comparison to NANA is, as npal said, a matter of opinion. The main difference is that H&C's cast were not self-destructive in their pain and mistakes, whereas NANA is all about self-destructive tendencies in maximizing pain and mistakes.

Again, I love NANA but I know a soap opera when I see one. NANA just happens to be a good, yummy soap opera.

H&C, on the other hand, defies categorization and did it without any gimmicks of sex, drugs or rock 'n roll.

And because of that, I'll always rank H&C higher overall than NANA.

kauldron26 · 2007-01-17, 22:02

i did not say that NANA is realistic, i said that the characters take realistic actions and choices. How Takemoto can love Hagu for 5 years without ever a simple glimpse of him adoring any other woman or atleast being lustful is not realistic. A healthy male with no raging hormornes?? not libido?? no search for passion?? only hagu hagu hagu hagu hagu hagu hagu.... c'mon man. How can Yamada as hot as she is obsess over one guy for 5 years is quite masochistic and very unhealthy. Which woman do u know in her 20s thinks that way??

My point is that this anime focuses on the idealism of love and not the realism of its aftermath. In the real world especially in college, when a guy likes a girl he makes a move. He doesnt sit down and stare at her and keep his feelings to himself, and even after rejection state that "its ok, i love u anyways" It is not realistic. But idealistic.

How a grown man like Mayama who is independent can have a girl like Ayu throw herself at him everyday and not consider taking advantage regardless of how honorable it is is absolutely ridiculous. C'mon man.... if u had Ayu head over heels inlove with you, wouldnt u ever indulge or atleast consider it???

How Yamada could turn down all those confessions from the guys she grew up with and then suddenly they forgive her, and all is right with the world is absolute nonsense. Humans do not act that way. That form of love... unconditional love is idealistic. In real life when u confess to a girl, and u get rejected u dont just get over it. U react, u project, u lash out (unless the individual is has a cognitive dissention regarding emotional resposnes)

In Nana, folks in their 20s are portrayed realstically. Not every girl gets to give her virginity to the perfect guy. Not every girl is honest about their sexual experiences. Not every good guy is Noble. Not everyone that is meant to be together and seems compatible can actually be in a relationship that lasts.

My point is that Honey and Clover as great as it is, and it is great dont get me wrong, portrays an idealistic perception of love that is unconditional and the repercussions of heartbreak and dissention are poetic and catharthic. However in real life sometimes the only way we can really get over pain is not to go ride a bike, or devote ur self to a project. Sometimes we can only find comfort in others, some folk take advantage of others to make themselves feel better. Some people find solace in promiscuity. Some people dont even know who they are thus they give in to their carnal desires. Some people instead of riding a bike around the country (and it is ooooh so poetic) to achieve self actualization will just go to a bar and get stoned or have a one night stand. And each of these actions have consequences that can last a day, a month, a year or a life time.

In honey and Clover, we see people with dreams and with goals, and their desire to carry it out. Shit man, back in college i can count on my left hand how many guys actually stuck with the same major since freshman year. People change... and i feel that this is what Honey and Clover did not address. it was like the characters were all stuck in the same moment facing one central issue. Life and Love. Ultimately my point is that those of us in our 20s when faced in the situations these characters were positioned would have changed our perspectives and goals within the 4-5 yr time span. Hence the characters had idealistic convictions and perceptions.

brightredglow · 2007-01-17, 23:56

And I think you are basing the opinion on a single value: sex. So if that is your tipping value point, then nothing is going to change your opinion because sex was not the focus of H&C

However, the actions of the characters in NANA are far from realistic. Hachi thinking that she has to "break up" with Takumi just because she had sex with him was not realistic. Realistic would have been, "Hey, we slept together three times and nothing more. We never even went on a real date. Why do I have to break up with you when we were never together?" Instead she goes through a melodrama over a molehill. And that was so unrealistic that it was plain stupid.

Takemoto making a final peace with the fact that he'll never been Hagu's love was realistic. I know people, like myself even, who went through it. And to be precise, Takemoto's thoughts were, "I'm glad that I fell in love with you." It was not, "I'm glad I'm still in love with you." He's not idealizing the love that he felt, but he's not regretting it either. And that is realistic because not all unrequited love has to end bitter. In real life, it doesn't always happen so in this case, H&C nailed it. It was a different perspective, but not an unrealistic one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kauldron26

My point is that Honey and Clover as great as it is, and it is great dont get me wrong, portrays an idealistic perception of love that is unconditional and the repercussions of heartbreak and dissention are poetic and catharthic. However in real life sometimes the only way we can really get over pain is not to go ride a bike, or devote ur self to a project. Sometimes we can only find comfort in others, some folk take advantage of others to make themselves feel better. Some people find solace in promiscuity. Some people dont even know who they are thus they give in to their carnal desires. Some people instead of riding a bike around the country (and it is ooooh so poetic) to achieve self actualization will just go to a bar and get stoned or have a one night stand. And each of these actions have consequences that can last a day, a month, a year or a life time.

So for H&C to gain "realistic" value was for one of the characters to have a one-night stand with someone else? Check: Rika and Mayama. We can also count Ayu and Nomiya except Ayu was too drunk to do anything. Or to get drunk? Check: Ayu gets drunk aplenty. Or that someone had to be cynical? Check: Kaoru Morita had plenty of cynicism so did Morita when he let his guard down.

Again, NANA and H&C have their moments, but H&C's focus is different from NANA. Although I must say that to gain self-actualization by going to a bar, or getting stoned, or having a one night stand isn't self-actualization. It is merely going to a bar, getting stoned, or having sex. That's a "been there, done that" plot device that is well used and well worn.

But going on a bike ride across country was different yet it fit the character. It may not fit your character, but it fit Takemoto's character.

Theowne · 2007-01-18, 01:16

I don't quite understand where your idea of "realism" comes from, kauldron. It seems as if it is simply your perspective on how college students act. However many of us have different perspectives on this. Perhaps you have the perspective that it is realistic for college students to get drunk and have one night stands and hate commitment to relationships - but in my perspective, I could just as well say that is unrealistic, just from my experience. There are few people I socialize with who I could imagine doing those things. Are they "unrealistic people", as well? People have different personalities and perspectives. I can certainly identify with Takemoto's self-realization and I think it's realistic because of that. Perhaps you don't identify with that kind of thing, but how is that unrealistic? It is a difference of perspective.

Characters in H&C are obviously different in terms of personalities from the characters in NANA. Perhaps you find NANA's characters more realistic, but I don't find either of them to be more realistic then the other. They're just different. And I prefer H&C because I can identify with those characters more.

madhat · 2007-01-18, 02:17

haha well the only thing thats slightly hard to relate to with H&C is that they're all art students in one way or another... it's kind of a different realm that they're in.... i would have liked to have had some closure on yamada's feelings for nomiya. in the end, it revolved more on hagu and takemoto, in a way. but more on hagu cause she's the only one who doesnt have a set destination. i can envision there being another sequel, but it's probably unlikely. they hardly ever make a third series...

yes i just watched all of the H&C episodes within the past week. i may be rehashing the sentiments of many.

tell me, in the manga, might there have been any further development? or did this series used to be in novel form? please let me know.

cipotlar · 2007-01-18, 04:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by madhat

haha well the only thing thats slightly hard to relate to with H&C is that they're all art students in one way or another... it's kind of a different realm that they're in.... i would have liked to have had some closure on yamada's feelings for nomiya. in the end, it revolved more on hagu and takemoto, in a way. but more on hagu cause she's the only one who doesnt have a set destination. i can envision there being another sequel, but it's probably unlikely. they hardly ever make a third series...

yes i just watched all of the H&C episodes within the past week. i may be rehashing the sentiments of many.

tell me, in the manga, might there have been any further development? or did this series used to be in novel form? please let me know.

Unfortunately, Hachikuro manga concluded last year, the last being volume 10. The story pretty much ended up the same place as the anime's counterpart.

There is a hint for Ayumi - Nomiya relation in the last chapter, which regrettably did not make it to the anime version. The other relationships ended in similar fashion as in the anime.

kauldron26 · 2007-01-18, 06:31

@brightglow, how in the world did u conclude that all i am talking about is sex from about 6 paragraphs?? wtf... if there are 1000 people in a room and 900 of them are immature alcoholics, that is realism in that specific demographic. Because one character stands out does not mean he is or isnt realistic. I am comparing to the norm and not to a subjective self identity. If i was comparing to a self identity each one of us guys can relate to takemoto because of certain characterisitcs however, if we generalize to the human male population in their 20's he is more ideal than real.

~sigh~ im done... i love this show man, im just posting my thoughts im not trying to devalue it. things go astray when u start questioning my character based off ur perception of a couple of posts. All i am saying is that Honey and Clover chooses to portray an idealistic perception and reaction of love. not being realistic IS NOT A BAD THING. If shakespeare was not idealistic when it came to his expression of love, much of the human population would not consider love to be the ultimate emotion to share. And idealism can be a good thing and that is what makes H&C good. NANA on the other hand chooses to focus on the nitty gritty of the dark side of love where its not just about confessions and devotions but about unplanned pregnancies, promiscuity, obsession, and how non of us really understand what love actually is.

If u have 5000 guys in a room and each of them have been dumped and have no idea what they are going to do with their lives, and have just been rejected by a girl, how many of the 5000 guys in their 20s will go ride a bike around New Jersey v.s. how many guys would choose to go to a club hoping to have fun get laid and get drunk.??

riding a bike around Japan= idealisitc (we can all relate to it)
going to a bar/club/party to have fun meet girls= realistic (what the general population would most likely do)

ight... im done...

tritoch · 2007-01-18, 06:42

Check out Theowne's reply. =)

Seriously, people in NANA is the norm? Out of 700 batchmates I have, I can say that 200 have the same things that happened in NANA. That's 1/4- That's not the norm. You either have more friends belonging to that group or in a community that has that kind of behaviour run rampant. That's not the norm.. trust me.

Way too much Americanized garbage on movies have clouded our perceptions. You'd be surprised how much of the stuff in american pie is overracted.

Whew.

brightredglow · 2007-01-18, 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by kauldron26

@brightglow, how in the world did u conclude that all i am talking about is sex from about 6 paragraphs??

Look, I'm not slamming your character. I don't even know you so how can I slam your character.

Still, it didn't seem much of a stretch for me to pinpoint the topic of "sex" since you've focused on the sexual aspect in some of your past posts about Shuu's confession and how it downgraded your feeling about the series because of the incest vibes you felt was contained in it. (Even though Shuu never expressed a sexual interest. He merely expressed a love for Hagu just as he had expressed a non-sexual love for Harada and Rika.)

And then there is this series of posts that have a refrain in various forms of the same thought such as this one:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kauldron26

How a grown man like Mayama who is independent can have a girl like Ayu throw herself at him everyday and not consider taking advantage regardless of how honorable it is is absolutely ridiculous. C'mon man.... if u had Ayu head over heels in love with you, wouldnt u ever indulge or atleast consider it???

So you'll have to forgive me if that is how I read your posts. It was just a refrain that kept coming up. And again, it is not a slam against your character if this aspect is something that you feel is important to explore. It just simply wasn't a main focus of H&C's storyline.

As for your not devaluing the series, I apologize again. I guess I figured that you were devaluing it in this post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by kauldron26

after recently getting into the anime NANA, i have painfully realised how much i have been overrating Honey and Clover.... The more i think about it after comparing it to Nana, these characters arent in the least bit realistic.

Words like "overrating" has a tendency to also read as "I gave it too much value".

Perhaps you didn't mean it too, but an opening like that just invites debate and given how many of us also watch (or in my case, read) NANA, there was potential for differing opinions and responses.

The viewpoints are a matter of opinion and perception. You see NANA as exploring deeper, darker themes of love that is realistic whereas I see a soap opera with a bunch of gorgeous people doing self-destructive and stupid things but get away with it because they are gorgeous, pretty people. (And I've got nothing against that considering how quickly I dl the chapters once they are available.)

You see H&C as being idealistic in how it handled "love" whereas I don't see how it was idealised at all. Ayu wasn't idealistic about her love. She held on too long and she was aware of it. Takemoto wasn't idealistic; it was just something that became a part of him and finally, his past history. The 3rd Gen guys didn't get over Ayu that quickly. She had to face them and it was awkward and clumsy but as Ippei said, she had to stick with it until they came around. None of that is idealistic. Each instance was awkward and painful but like life, ultimately dealt with. In NANA, the encounters are made of drama. In H&C, the encounters run from the dramatic to the anticlimatic.

In H&C, love could be requited and unrequited and either way, you just have to deal with it and get on with it because you got bills to pay.

In NANA, love is messed up and misguided and when you deal with it, do it in such a way as to maximize the pain because no one worries about paying bills in NANA.

The fact is that H&C just handled the subject of love differently from NANA. In fact, the treatment is so different that to compare them is unfair but neither is particularly idealistic nor completely realistic.

So again, it comes down to opinion and perception.

I love both series, but I admit that for now, I give the edge to Honey & Clover, season 1, as being the best of the lot because it had a wider range of emotions and situations that were dealt with than both NANA and H&C II.

fizzer123 · 2007-01-18, 21:40

Personally, I don't think NANA has the same emotional pull that Honey and Clover has. In the 28 episodes of NANA I've watched, I've never once felt for any of the characters - they seem to have gone off the tracks by their own doing. Nana.K's life seems to soley revolve around finding the love of her life, and not much else. There is more of a balance with Takemoto, which makes his character, at least more me, more realistic.As brightredglow said, NANA is a soapie...and while I still watch and enjoy it, it's not on the same level as H&C.

On another note, does anybody know if episode 12 (of s2) has been redubbed for the DVD? It's due out in a week or so.

Zappster · 2007-01-19, 04:53

That was apparently the plan. I should know soon enough

Trax · 2007-01-19, 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tritoch

Seriously, people in NANA is the norm? Out of 700 batchmates I have, I can say that 200 have the same things that happened in NANA. That's 1/4- That's not the norm. You either have more friends belonging to that group or in a community that has that kind of behaviour run rampant. That's not the norm.. trust me.

25% is still quite a lot if you ask me. Now try the same with the things that happened in H&C and see how much you would come up with. Probably alot lower, right? I'd have to agree with kauldron26 that in terms of general human behavior H&C seems less realistic than NANA. But both takes on human behavior make them interesting to watch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizzer123

In the 28 episodes of NANA I've watched, I've never once felt for any of the characters

Are you watching the same show that I am?

kauldron26 · 2007-01-19, 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by brightredglow

The fact is that H&C just handled the subject of love differently from NANA. In fact, the treatment is so different that to compare them is unfair but neither is particularly idealistic nor completely realistic.

So again, it comes down to opinion and perception.

I love both series, but I admit that for now, I give the edge to Honey & Clover, season 1, as being the best of the lot because it had a wider range of emotions and situations that were dealt with than both NANA and H&C II.

This was exactly my point. Both series handled the subject of love differently, and our perception of how the handled it is definitely subjective, so we can agree to disagree if the difference lies in the realm of realism and idealism. However it is clear that how love is portrayed is very, very, very different.

musouka · 2007-01-19, 15:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trax

I'd have to agree with kauldron26 that in terms of general human behavior H&C seems less realistic than NANA.

To me, NANA has always seemed vaguely realistic in the sense that I knew or knew of people with similar circumstances. Not as dramatic, but similar enough. But, they have no relationship to me. I might feel for them, but it's a distant sort of "well, that kind of sucks" feeling. Like reading about celebrities or movie stars, the characters in NANA are completely removed from my day to day life, and move in their own orbits that will never be similar to my own.

Whereas HachiKuro has always seemed realistic in the sense that I can relate to it. Maybe I've never fallen in love with a four foot, blonde Japanese artist, or biked my way across the country, but I sure as hell have compared myself to other people and despaired that I wasn't as good or as talented as I wanted to be. I've been in love with people that haven't loved me back, and felt that tender, bittersweet warmth when I think back on it.

To me, HachiKuro has an emotional gravity and realism that NANA just can't match.

Nergol · 2007-01-20, 05:12

A bit of trivia about H&C II:

The opening song, "Fugainaiya", was not originally written for the show. It was written and performed by Yuki, the former lead singer of the J-Pop group Judy and Mary. She is married to the lead singer from Magokoro Brothers. They had a child - a baby boy - in 2003. In spring of 2005, the child died of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. "Fugainaiya" was the song she wrote to express her feelings at the death of her baby son. Apparently the producers of Honey and Clover liked it, and took it on as the opening theme to H&C II.

So, if it sounds like there's an unusual amount of emotion behind the song, well, there is.

Nergol · 2007-01-20, 05:15

Here's an alternate translation for the song:

I gave birth in the morning in a town covered in snow
That is that - Those tiny hands could look up to the blue sky
Just like in the old days, it was good to know who the daughter next door was
Out of my ear I could hear the graduation canon

Although it's okay to be alone, they turned the pages and it's now my life story
It's someone else's fault there is a corpse!
It's so painful!! I hate it!

The right-handed weaver raised the price after the rain
For those handmade fortune cookies We'd go out to eat the patterns
It's so sad to cry only to have what sprouts melt into nothing when
Autumn comes, and then winter came
And you only grew one year

I try to run far away but your story never ends
Grinning like you'd laugh. It's so cowardly! I hate it!
I'll chase you until I grab you. I'll kick you if I have to!
So this hole will stay empty. I can't do it! No mistake.. I hate it!

Very soon I
have to not rely
on superposition
You eventually have to
disappear too, my lovely
Just like the gentle sun goes to sleep
too

I gave birth in the morning in a town covered in snow
That was that - the tiny hands could look up to the blue sky

I try to run far away but your story never ends
Grinning like you'd laugh. It's so cowardly! I hate it!

I'll chase you until I grab you. I'll kick you if I have to!
So this hole will stay empty. Just a bit of pride. No mistake.. I hate it!!
It's so cowardly! I hate it!

It's Heartbreaking! I HATE IT!

2007-01-17, 11:53	Link #1141
npal I desire Tomorrow! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: As far away from reality as possible Age: 41	Who said idealism was easy? We'd be full of visionaries if it was so natural to be one. What I do believe however is that, in the long run, it's good for mankind to have a percentage of people who don't give up idealism. Some things don't need to be too bound by the reality of whatever it is that binds us. After all, from a logical realist's point, a hero is insane but necessary at times. __________________

2007-01-17, 12:33	Link #1143
npal I desire Tomorrow! Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: As far away from reality as possible Age: 41	Not really. If you yearn for idealistic love, you may get nothing, but you may as well get much. The same happens with people striving for perfection. They might not reach it, but through trying they're certain to reach a good point. If you settle in for mediocrity, the best you can hope for is mediocrity. An idealist, after all, is an idealist because it's not the profit that moves him but the idea __________________

2007-01-17, 21:31	Link #1145
brightredglow Member Join Date: Jan 2006	I love NANA. I adore NANA. I am addicted to NANA and obsess over it way too much. That said, NANA is strictly soap opera fare. There is very little that is realistic about it. There is only one truly realistic relationship in the entire series and that is Junko and Kyousuke. The rest is pure pulpy soapy goodness with a lot of pretty people doing some really dumb things and then reflecting on their stupidity by saying semi-sorta deep observations in voiceover. Honey & Clover is not NANA and I am plenty glad for that. H&C is strictly slice of life in which the ordinary and not-so-ordinary go through a period of time in which they become friends, they fall in love (some successfully and some not so successfully), and they are question their future and dreams. It isn't their beginning of life and it isn't their end. It is just a moment in time in which they were, as Takemoto put it, looking for that one thing but very realistically, they, and the audience, knew that the time would come to an end and they would move on. Of course, H&C does not mimic life in exact realism. If it had, we wouldn't want to watch it, but still, H&C is probably closer to reality of the awkwardness and clumsiness of life, living and love than NANA will ever be. It ran the gamut of Rika's mournful drama to the simplicity of Takemoto having to deal with a love that would never materialize and a lot of the in between. Chances are that Takemoto had already come to terms with it long before the last episode considering he was already planning to go work for the temple restorers even before Hagu's accident. If that isn't constructively moving on, then I don't know what is. If Takemoto had been in the NANA universe, he would have become a male prostitute to make ends meet since he couldn't find a job so to say that H&C is lesser in comparison to NANA is, as npal said, a matter of opinion. The main difference is that H&C's cast were not self-destructive in their pain and mistakes, whereas NANA is all about self-destructive tendencies in maximizing pain and mistakes. Again, I love NANA but I know a soap opera when I see one. NANA just happens to be a good, yummy soap opera. H&C, on the other hand, defies categorization and did it without any gimmicks of sex, drugs or rock 'n roll. And because of that, I'll always rank H&C higher overall than NANA. Last edited by brightredglow; 2007-01-17 at 21:48.

2007-01-18, 01:16	Link #1148
Theowne 耳をすませば Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Toronto, Canada Age: 34	I don't quite understand where your idea of "realism" comes from, kauldron. It seems as if it is simply your perspective on how college students act. However many of us have different perspectives on this. Perhaps you have the perspective that it is realistic for college students to get drunk and have one night stands and hate commitment to relationships - but in my perspective, I could just as well say that is unrealistic, just from my experience. There are few people I socialize with who I could imagine doing those things. Are they "unrealistic people", as well? People have different personalities and perspectives. I can certainly identify with Takemoto's self-realization and I think it's realistic because of that. Perhaps you don't identify with that kind of thing, but how is that unrealistic? It is a difference of perspective. Characters in H&C are obviously different in terms of personalities from the characters in NANA. Perhaps you find NANA's characters more realistic, but I don't find either of them to be more realistic then the other. They're just different. And I prefer H&C because I can identify with those characters more. __________________ My Site - Reviews collection, Sheet music, and etc. Anime reviews/blog, piano arrangements, Studio Ghibli..

2007-01-18, 06:31	Link #1151
kauldron26 Med Student Join Date: Jul 2006 Age: 40	@brightglow, how in the world did u conclude that all i am talking about is sex from about 6 paragraphs?? wtf... if there are 1000 people in a room and 900 of them are immature alcoholics, that is realism in that specific demographic. Because one character stands out does not mean he is or isnt realistic. I am comparing to the norm and not to a subjective self identity. If i was comparing to a self identity each one of us guys can relate to takemoto because of certain characterisitcs however, if we generalize to the human male population in their 20's he is more ideal than real. ~sigh~ im done... i love this show man, im just posting my thoughts im not trying to devalue it. things go astray when u start questioning my character based off ur perception of a couple of posts. All i am saying is that Honey and Clover chooses to portray an idealistic perception and reaction of love. not being realistic IS NOT A BAD THING. If shakespeare was not idealistic when it came to his expression of love, much of the human population would not consider love to be the ultimate emotion to share. And idealism can be a good thing and that is what makes H&C good. NANA on the other hand chooses to focus on the nitty gritty of the dark side of love where its not just about confessions and devotions but about unplanned pregnancies, promiscuity, obsession, and how non of us really understand what love actually is. If u have 5000 guys in a room and each of them have been dumped and have no idea what they are going to do with their lives, and have just been rejected by a girl, how many of the 5000 guys in their 20s will go ride a bike around New Jersey v.s. how many guys would choose to go to a club hoping to have fun get laid and get drunk.?? riding a bike around Japan= idealisitc (we can all relate to it) going to a bar/club/party to have fun meet girls= realistic (what the general population would most likely do) ight... im done... Last edited by kauldron26; 2007-01-18 at 06:43.

2007-01-17, 11:59	Link #1142
kauldron26 Med Student Join Date: Jul 2006 Age: 40	However dont u think an idealized love standard is more harmful than beneficial?? Dont u believe that if you approach the concept of love with a realistic perspective ur more likely to benefit? approaching love with an idealistic perspective is more like to set u up for a downfall. u concur? And dont u think that if the characters in H&C and in real life approach love with a realistic perspective the concept of heartbreak will actually minimilize?

2007-01-17, 15:28	Link #1144
mangafanatic Member Join Date: Dec 2005	To say that Honey and Clover is unrealistic is to assume that your views on romance are the "realistic" views. The lack of sexual overtures does not, necessarily, represent a misrepresentation of reality, but might simply represent a different view of reality. Love, as it has been best defined for me, is to want what is best for another person. In almost every relationship in Honey and Clover, specifically those involving Hagumi, to make a sexual advance would have represented doing what wasn't best for that person. Ayu making a move on Mayama, for instance, would have simply been a gross instance of ignoring his feelings. Furthermore, you take for granted that all a person wants, ultimately, in a relationship is merely sex. There's still a very large precent of the world's population which views sex as something special to be entered into only in the bound of a serious and committed relationship. As you'll notice, there's very little positive headway made in the relationships in Honey and Clover. If that said, if the Honey and Clover characters saw sex as a step in a committed relationship-- then it would only be natural that sex wouldn't be an integral part of the series. No one really gets into a committed relationship (with the exception of, perhaps, Mayama.) And I don't see that as idealistic at all. It's a very practical way to live, and it's a way that many people happily do live. Additionally, if the idealism you're referring to is this idea that people be in love for years with someone who doesn't recipocate their feelings-- that's not really unrealistic. As one who's loved someone who has continued to be interested in others and ignore my feeling, the choice to continue loving someone who cannot love you in return is often not a conscious one. I don't really want to love this person. I just do. Specifically Ayu has built a world around Mayama and the idea of Mayama. Those kinds of emotional commitment and dreams can't simply be abandoned. Regardless of how much emotional pain a more "realistic" view might save, often, we can only be who we are. No matter how much we might hate ourselves for it.

2007-01-17, 22:02	Link #1146
kauldron26 Med Student Join Date: Jul 2006 Age: 40	i did not say that NANA is realistic, i said that the characters take realistic actions and choices. How Takemoto can love Hagu for 5 years without ever a simple glimpse of him adoring any other woman or atleast being lustful is not realistic. A healthy male with no raging hormornes?? not libido?? no search for passion?? only hagu hagu hagu hagu hagu hagu hagu.... c'mon man. How can Yamada as hot as she is obsess over one guy for 5 years is quite masochistic and very unhealthy. Which woman do u know in her 20s thinks that way?? My point is that this anime focuses on the idealism of love and not the realism of its aftermath. In the real world especially in college, when a guy likes a girl he makes a move. He doesnt sit down and stare at her and keep his feelings to himself, and even after rejection state that "its ok, i love u anyways" It is not realistic. But idealistic. How a grown man like Mayama who is independent can have a girl like Ayu throw herself at him everyday and not consider taking advantage regardless of how honorable it is is absolutely ridiculous. C'mon man.... if u had Ayu head over heels inlove with you, wouldnt u ever indulge or atleast consider it??? How Yamada could turn down all those confessions from the guys she grew up with and then suddenly they forgive her, and all is right with the world is absolute nonsense. Humans do not act that way. That form of love... unconditional love is idealistic. In real life when u confess to a girl, and u get rejected u dont just get over it. U react, u project, u lash out (unless the individual is has a cognitive dissention regarding emotional resposnes) In Nana, folks in their 20s are portrayed realstically. Not every girl gets to give her virginity to the perfect guy. Not every girl is honest about their sexual experiences. Not every good guy is Noble. Not everyone that is meant to be together and seems compatible can actually be in a relationship that lasts. My point is that Honey and Clover as great as it is, and it is great dont get me wrong, portrays an idealistic perception of love that is unconditional and the repercussions of heartbreak and dissention are poetic and catharthic. However in real life sometimes the only way we can really get over pain is not to go ride a bike, or devote ur self to a project. Sometimes we can only find comfort in others, some folk take advantage of others to make themselves feel better. Some people find solace in promiscuity. Some people dont even know who they are thus they give in to their carnal desires. Some people instead of riding a bike around the country (and it is ooooh so poetic) to achieve self actualization will just go to a bar and get stoned or have a one night stand. And each of these actions have consequences that can last a day, a month, a year or a life time. In honey and Clover, we see people with dreams and with goals, and their desire to carry it out. Shit man, back in college i can count on my left hand how many guys actually stuck with the same major since freshman year. People change... and i feel that this is what Honey and Clover did not address. it was like the characters were all stuck in the same moment facing one central issue. Life and Love. Ultimately my point is that those of us in our 20s when faced in the situations these characters were positioned would have changed our perspectives and goals within the 4-5 yr time span. Hence the characters had idealistic convictions and perceptions.

2007-01-18, 02:17	Link #1149
madhat Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: northeast	haha well the only thing thats slightly hard to relate to with H&C is that they're all art students in one way or another... it's kind of a different realm that they're in.... i would have liked to have had some closure on yamada's feelings for nomiya. in the end, it revolved more on hagu and takemoto, in a way. but more on hagu cause she's the only one who doesnt have a set destination. i can envision there being another sequel, but it's probably unlikely. they hardly ever make a third series... yes i just watched all of the H&C episodes within the past week. i may be rehashing the sentiments of many. tell me, in the manga, might there have been any further development? or did this series used to be in novel form? please let me know.

2007-01-18, 06:42	Link #1152
tritoch 神 Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Chi-town	Check out Theowne's reply. =) Seriously, people in NANA is the norm? Out of 700 batchmates I have, I can say that 200 have the same things that happened in NANA. That's 1/4- That's not the norm. You either have more friends belonging to that group or in a community that has that kind of behaviour run rampant. That's not the norm.. trust me. Way too much Americanized garbage on movies have clouded our perceptions. You'd be surprised how much of the stuff in american pie is overracted. Whew.

2007-01-18, 21:40	Link #1154
fizzer123 Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006	Personally, I don't think NANA has the same emotional pull that Honey and Clover has. In the 28 episodes of NANA I've watched, I've never once felt for any of the characters - they seem to have gone off the tracks by their own doing. Nana.K's life seems to soley revolve around finding the love of her life, and not much else. There is more of a balance with Takemoto, which makes his character, at least more me, more realistic.As brightredglow said, NANA is a soapie...and while I still watch and enjoy it, it's not on the same level as H&C. On another note, does anybody know if episode 12 (of s2) has been redubbed for the DVD? It's due out in a week or so.

2007-01-19, 04:53	Link #1155
Zappster Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	That was apparently the plan. I should know soon enough

2007-01-20, 05:12	Link #1159
Nergol Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006	A bit of trivia about H&C II: The opening song, "Fugainaiya", was not originally written for the show. It was written and performed by Yuki, the former lead singer of the J-Pop group Judy and Mary. She is married to the lead singer from Magokoro Brothers. They had a child - a baby boy - in 2003. In spring of 2005, the child died of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome. "Fugainaiya" was the song she wrote to express her feelings at the death of her baby son. Apparently the producers of Honey and Clover liked it, and took it on as the opening theme to H&C II. So, if it sounds like there's an unusual amount of emotion behind the song, well, there is.

2007-01-20, 05:15	Link #1160
Nergol Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2006	Here's an alternate translation for the song: I gave birth in the morning in a town covered in snow That is that - Those tiny hands could look up to the blue sky Just like in the old days, it was good to know who the daughter next door was Out of my ear I could hear the graduation canon Although it's okay to be alone, they turned the pages and it's now my life story It's someone else's fault there is a corpse! It's so painful!! I hate it! The right-handed weaver raised the price after the rain For those handmade fortune cookies We'd go out to eat the patterns It's so sad to cry only to have what sprouts melt into nothing when Autumn comes, and then winter came And you only grew one year I try to run far away but your story never ends Grinning like you'd laugh. It's so cowardly! I hate it! I'll chase you until I grab you. I'll kick you if I have to! So this hole will stay empty. I can't do it! No mistake.. I hate it! Very soon I have to not rely on superposition You eventually have to disappear too, my lovely Just like the gentle sun goes to sleep too I gave birth in the morning in a town covered in snow That was that - the tiny hands could look up to the blue sky I try to run far away but your story never ends Grinning like you'd laugh. It's so cowardly! I hate it! I'll chase you until I grab you. I'll kick you if I have to! So this hole will stay empty. Just a bit of pride. No mistake.. I hate it!! It's so cowardly! I hate it! It's Heartbreaking! I HATE IT!