2008-03-31, 03:05 | Link #1101 | |
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Spoiler for Fluff:
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2008-03-31, 03:19 | Link #1102 | ||
Truth Martyr
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Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
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2008-03-31, 09:35 | Link #1103 | |
Adeptus Animus
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Age: 36
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Discussion caried over from another thread:
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Or how about Signum? Who blew up a Squadron of about fifty drones? (and concidering you can't even see the drones, wouldn't that make it over 100 meter Ark?) And then of course there is Nanoha, who blew through several bulkheads of a Lost Logia warship. And then there are the numrous 'cast getting smashed through concrete' scenes, the fact that the Wolkenritter use swords and hammers, and so on and so on. |
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2008-03-31, 10:17 | Link #1104 | ||
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This is the biggest sticking point in the argument; magic behaves inconsistently throughout the series, sometimes doing physical damage and sometimes not. Several of the big points include: Manga Nanoha performing Starlight Breaker Plus for the first time and not vaporizing herself. Several instances throughout the series where massive property damage should have been dealt by an attack, yet none is shown; Reinforce's Starlight Breaker Plus in the A's climax comes to mind. Hayate's Diabolic Emission over Kranagan in StrikerS didn't destroy any buildings and barely damaged the cyborgs. Ginga takes a Divine Buster at point blank range and comes out in one piece. Vice's accidental headshot didn't instantly kill his sister. It's things of this nature that have led some of my fellow debaters to think that Nanoha is all about dazzling lights with no substance behind them. |
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2008-03-31, 10:22 | Link #1105 |
Adeptus Animus
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That's the big pain-in-the-rear with Nanoha, the inconsistency. However, remember the scene in episode 7 in which Teana got an extreme scolding because she -and I quote- risked the life of a comrade? Magic very much has the potential to kill (Vice's sister is still blind in her hit eye for example) however, whether it does or does not is scene dependant.
Bottomline: Can magic in Nanoha kill? Yes, very much so. |
2008-03-31, 10:37 | Link #1106 | |
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Noted. I'll get back to this when I get a reply from the others. Knowing these guys like I do, they'll probably try to pick holes in this argument somehow.
In the meantime, one of the other posters came up with a theory regarding how magic works that I thought I'd post here for discussion: Quote:
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2008-03-31, 19:12 | Link #1107 | ||||
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At least that's how I'll have done it, if I'm arguing for weak Nanoverse power
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2008-03-31, 19:17 | Link #1108 | |
~ I Do ~
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@Ark: The spell Signum shot clearly wasn't a wall. Knowing Tsuzuki, Signum's attack was intended to mimic a giant pheonix charging towards the drones, rather than a wall.
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2008-03-31, 20:21 | Link #1109 | ||
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2) The "giant phoenix" can also be re-expressed as a wall. 3) The point is to demonstrate the fallacies of just assuming in the world of SoD analysis, which because of our lack of knowledge on sci-fi/magic mechanisms, tends to be thermodynamic. When you go to thermodynamics, things generally assumed to require energy, sometimes don't. Quote:
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2008-03-31, 20:49 | Link #1110 | |||
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I've always held to the theory that the Linker Core is an aspect of the spirit that anchors the spirit to the body, hence the name. Those with cores that are especially "fine tuned" to their bodies can harness their spiritual energy with their minds and craft it into spells. The tech aspect of Nanoha is entirely optional, as Yuuno and other device-less mages have displayed, and simply augments the mage's ability to harness and control his/her spiritual energy by attuning themselves to their master's linker core. This also provides a telepathic link between the device and the mage and allows the mage to issue commands without speaking them, as well as benefit from a universal translation program all devices have (Hence the reason why Nanoha is able to speak with the Mid-Childans in season 1, who obviously aren't speaking Japanese as their native language). Quote:
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2008-03-31, 21:54 | Link #1112 | |||||||
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Further, the inevitability of physical destruction also makes a hash of the supposed advantage of magic, which is that it can attack targets without damaging them or the surroundings. If this theory is correct, one can kiss the italicized part goodbye. Quote:
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2008-03-31, 22:55 | Link #1113 |
"Begin, the operation!"
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Okay, I think I figured it out, Goose, Ark. You're both correct considering the composition and thickness of Barrier Jackets.
My reasoning is as follows, using two examples: Your average OFM mage (B-rank, Assault Company), and Nanoha. As a B-rank mage, the Assault Company member doesn't have the speed or reaction time with his magic (unless he's freakishly fast for his rank) to put up active defense barriers, nor does he have an Intelligent Device, so he has no Auto-Guard. Logically, he would want to go ahead and wear a thicker Barrier Jacket with stronger protection emitters. He doesn't have the spells or the skill to react quickly to a magical attack, so he needs to have as much protection from the onset. On the other hand, Nanoha is an S-ranked mage. Her Barrier Jacket doesn't need to be "standard", per se, because she has the skill and reaction time to quickly put up an active defense, and, barring that, she wields an Intelligent Device that has an Auto-Guard. This effectively minimizes the amount of default protection she needs (read: the jacket itself) to just above the amount necessary to survive a few direct hits if the attack breaks through the active defense. This frees up her mana to cast more attack spells. tl;dr: The lower-ranked you are, the thicker your jacket is because your reaction skills aren't as good and your spells are weaker. The higher-ranked you are, you have more active defenses and you have the skills necessary to implement them. Both Ark and Goose are right . Finally, Ark, the reason that Rein's BJ is weak is because she really shouldn't be on the battlefield outside of Unison.
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2008-04-01, 00:13 | Link #1115 |
Truth Martyr
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The novel's considered discontinuity here for contradicting a LOT of what is shown in the series; about the only contributions from it and the manga have been the recognition that the TSAB is apparently involved in some sort of Lost Logia cold war arms race...
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2008-04-01, 06:48 | Link #1116 | |
~ I Do ~
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Btw, I find it hard to accept one fact and disregard the rest when the work has retconned almost all the major points of the anime itself, but the point Goose raised is about the only shred of evidence of the world outside TSAB's myopic cacoon which seems too perfect to be true.
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2008-04-01, 07:01 | Link #1117 |
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Almost all the major points? Well, there was some retconning of Ep10-12 of thereabouts, but "almost all"?
Worse, the book actually came later. Its "anti-magic" round precedent was actually taken and turned into "magical damage" starting with A's and heading on to StrikerS. In the absence of a clearly established canon hierarchy, it is possible to argue (as your use of "retconn" tactitly concedes) the book actually has precedence. It came later, contained more details (indicating in SoD terms a greater emphasis on research in making it) and covered a darker side of the TSAB. |
2008-04-01, 07:22 | Link #1118 | |
~ I Do ~
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2008-04-01, 08:19 | Link #1119 |
Adeptus Animus
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Not to mention there is information in the novel that wouldn't fit in canon, such as the 'forced reqruitement' thing. Disregarding Nanoha, who, I believe it was stated, was only allowed to stay on earth because Lindy pulled some strings, Fate, Hayate and the Wolkenritter were also allowed to stay on earth. Nanoha, I can buy, even with the total lack of evidence but to say Lindy has enough influence to allow several criminals to stay on a planet they should have been drafted of the moment they were discovered? I mean, even during StrikerS there are people who don't trust Hayate and see her as a criminal, and that's excluding Regius.
Last edited by Keroko; 2008-04-01 at 09:41. |
2008-04-01, 09:23 | Link #1120 |
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As much as I like the idea of an evil TSAB--and, naturally, an AU fanfic where the girls are pitted against it instead of siding with the bad guys--I agree with Keroko in regards to the forced recruitment thing.
What kind of idiot forcibly recruits what are essentially human superweapons anyways? That's just begging for a mutiny of epic proportions with a White Devil at the head of the movement. Viva la resistance! |
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