AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Retired M-Z > Umineko

Notices

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 2010-08-22, 00:57   Link #541
Helmet-kun
Local Crackpot
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
*Snip*
Now, you've lost me. I had some general idea as to who Yasu was, but now...

So, anyone care to explain Yasu?
__________________
Helmet-kun is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:02   Link #542
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Just another thing that came to my mind that makes the puzzle rather incomplete.
Yasutrice said she prepared the cash cards in case somebody prefers hard cash over the rather hard to handle gold, she even handed some of them out to the siblings.

In Episode 3, as it seems, she wasn't there or had no time to tell Eva (or other person X who arrived before Eva) the code, so she wrote it on the wall of the parlour. This is even expanded upon in the anime version, when we see Eva behind Battler, furiously scribbling down the numbers (so it implies that she knew what it was for).
It could imply anything, to be honest. But then, its a nice touch that Battler's birthday is one half of the code, what was the rest of it again? I remember it being applicable to a date, but I honestly dont recall what it was.

Quote:
Yet, in Episode 4's Ange timeline, we learn that various cashcards were sent out before the incident on Rokkenjima. There was at least 3 (for Nanjo, Kumasawa and Ange) and they were sent out on October 3rd (according to post stamp). I don't know how possible it would be to fake such a stamp, but assume that we can take it as true.
This raises the question why somebody who is at least in connection to Yasu, would send out those cash cards, when it was implied by Yasu that it was just prepared for those who solved the epitaph.
We're never told that the cash cards only existed for those who were relatives of the deceased, nor, I believe, do we ever get confirmation on just how many of those deposit boxes there are.

In addition, once again, we're still left with the fact that Ange herself received such a money card after the incident had taken place. So it's not a servant thing, it's about the relatives of the deceased.

Also this further strengthens the idea that Yasu-Beato was aware of things coming to a head like this ahead of time. So if she had the foresight to prepare this elaborate setup with the cash cards, preparing the message bottles isnt such a huge stretch.

An act of condolence for the surviving relatives of the inevitable tragedy, and a roundabout dying message to reveal the true culprit? Either way, the exact circumstances of Yasu-Beatrice's involvement in this are incredibly murky, but indicate a good amount of certain forewarning.
Quote:
Genji, Kumasawa and Nanjo still appear pretty suspicious to me, especially considering that Genji knew about the solution to the epitaph all along, together with the location of the gold and he was the one placing Yasu back into the Ushiromiya household.
Additionally (if we really assume that manga and anime hold additional hints) he seems awfully calm about his death everytime, especially compared to the dreadfully distraught Kumasawa in Episode 1. He and Kanon/Shannon are the ones who informs people about basically everything going on in Episode 1 and 2. They are almost always the first at a crimescene and in both Episodes Genji survives until very late in the game.
That is highly suspicious on it's own merits. Definitely.
Quote:
EDIT:

Let's not forget that, according to the Endroll and the order of sacrifices, Shannon died first (as the 4th twilight) then Gohda (as the 5th) and then George (as the 6th) which is a BIG paradox when we consider what we saw. So whatever really happened in that room is pretty important to the puzzle.
I honestly hadn't noticed that.

If it's personality death, followed by George killing Gohda for whatever reason (witness?), before a possible Yasu-Beato face heel turn on George, then that could certainly work.

Maybe the manner in which Battler/Rosa's group found Shannon could be a failed suicide attempt?
TehChron is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:09   Link #543
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 39
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
Now, you've lost me. I had some general idea as to who Yasu was, but now...

So, anyone care to explain Yasu?
It would make sense if Yasu -> Beatrice -> Shannon. Kanon is a practical aside, but he is actually not needed to be a part of that connection, he can also just be someone else, as long as he is someone else than Kanon.

The problem is that Yasu cannot be the culprit that easily unless there is some event that seriously changed her mindset, which I can't quite place my finger on yet.
Yes there is the event in the flashback about her body being unable to love....but does that really guarantee a wish to kill? Especially when at the same time you cry for help?

On the other hand think about how some things are quite odd when it comes to the other servants. In Episode 3 we already have Ronove openly going against Beatrice's orders (he even catches Kinzo's ring before she can) and Vargilia more or less forcing a strategy upon her.
In Episode 4 it is basically the servants (if we asume the double-identity case) who are steering everything...even though I'm still lost on Gaap. If Shannon/Kanon was Yasu (was Beatrice) then it is even more strange why Vargilia would keep her prisoner, if it wasn't for a bigger reason.
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:12   Link #544
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
The oddity of a killing motive in the Yasu story is that it basically has to crop up in the last two years. That pretty much fixes it to the George/Jessica relationships, but not very long into those either. Losing hope in Battler alone doesn't seem to establish the causal link.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:16   Link #545
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
It would make sense if Yasu -> Beatrice -> Shannon. Kanon is a practical aside, but he is actually not needed to be a part of that connection, he can also just be someone else, as long as he is someone else than Kanon.

The problem is that Yasu cannot be the culprit that easily unless there is some event that seriously changed her mindset, which I can't quite place my finger on yet.
Exactly. On the other hand, we are simply more capable of assigning motivations to Shannon or Kanon.
Quote:
Yes there is the event in the flashback about her body being unable to love....but does that really guarantee a wish to kill? Especially when at the same time you cry for help?
As a core part of Yasu's personality, it indicates a desperation to be loved. Which could serve as motivation to being an accomplice.

Quote:
On the other hand think about how some things are quite odd when it comes to the other servants. In Episode 3 we already have Ronove openly going against Beatrice's orders (he even catches Kinzo's ring before she can) and Vargilia more or less forcing a strategy upon her.
In Episode 4 it is basically the servants (if we asume the double-identity case) who are steering everything...even though I'm still lost on Gaap. If Shannon/Kanon was Yasu (was Beatrice) then it is even more strange why Vargilia would keep her prisoner, if it wasn't for a bigger reason.
It works because Shannon/Kanon are the enemy from their perspective. Once those two are out of the way, Piece/Suit Beato appears before Battler.

I don't believe we ever see Beato appear before Piece Battler in any of the games until after the deaths of Shannon and Kanon.

The question we should be asking, is indeed, why Yasu-Beato and her known compatriots (Genji-Kumasawa) are acting to kill Shannon/Kanon? If we already know that at least Shannon and Yasu are the same person, why are they going after Shannon, but not Yasu-Beato?

Edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The oddity of a killing motive in the Yasu story is that it basically has to crop up in the last two years. That pretty much fixes it to the George/Jessica relationships, but not very long into those either. Losing hope in Battler alone doesn't seem to establish the causal link.
Battler's Sin therefore becomes obvious:

"Because you abandoned me, I clung in desperation to these murderers for the affection you promised me but never gave."

As Battler was no longer around to give Yasu-Beatrice the love she yearned for, she clung to George or Jessica for it. If one of those two are the true culprit, and Shkannon are simply the assistant, then Battler's Sin's connection also becomes clear. If he hadn't abandoned her, she would never have joined up with the culprit to begin with, thus setting the stage for the murders to take place.

The only aspect this interpretation doesnt address is the reason why Battler's presence makes it worse. But that's simply due to a lack of information.
TehChron is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:18   Link #546
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Jessica/George as competing murderers would be pretty hardcore, I must admit.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:22   Link #547
chounokoe
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Düsseldorf, Germany
Age: 39
Send a message via MSN to chounokoe
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
The question we should be asking, is indeed, why Yasu-Beato and her known compatriots (Genji-Kumasawa) are acting to kill Shannon/Kanon? If we already know that at least Shannon and Yasu are the same person, why are they going after Shannon, but not Yasu-Beato?
If we answer it with 'love' it could be the fact that Kumasawa and Genji practically lose their raison d'etre once Shannon or Kanon (in case he also is Yasutrice) leaves the island. They live to protect 'Beatrice-sama', but that illusion won't exist anymore when someone else would have found the gold and accepted the position as head of the family.
They could simply love 'Beatrice' too much to let her go.

This is of course only one interpretation. But it would at least halfway explain why somebody who has miraculously survived during Episode 1 would kill exactly the three people who put him/her in that place in the first place ... and it would explain why Kumasawa is so terribly affraid
__________________
愛が無ければ・・・視えない!!
chounokoe is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:24   Link #548
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Jessica/George as competing murderers would be pretty hardcore, I must admit.
And thus we get to Zepar and Furfur's Love Trial, and how all of that went down in Episode 6. In which both Jessica, George, Shannon, and Kanon were all shown to be capable of murder in the name of love.

But not Beato (who chose Natsuhi as a means of vengeance for the cliff thing, and even then bungled the "execution"), and not Battler (who opted to go for himself off camera).
TehChron is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:27   Link #549
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Someone really needs to make a fan version of BATTLER vs. Battler where he's fighting himself. I mean I know what the implication is but it's still got potential to be kind of funny.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:29   Link #550
Helmet-kun
Local Crackpot
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
The question we should be asking, is indeed, why Yasu-Beato and her known compatriots (Genji-Kumasawa) are acting to kill Shannon/Kanon?
...If your alternate personality was going to kill the people you love, wouldn't you defy them?

Genji-Kumasawa have probably accepted Yasu-Beato in order to keep their counterparts alive. If you had an imaginary friend and you die, then naturally the imaginary friend will die too- unless they existed in the minds of someone else. This is Beato-3 passing on her furniture to Yasu, no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
Yes there is the event in the flashback about her body being unable to love....but does that really guarantee a wish to kill? Especially when at the same time you cry for help?
...Um, Higurashi? (I'm not trying to pin the two stories together, but it just gave me that vibe.)
__________________

Last edited by Helmet-kun; 2010-08-22 at 01:41. Reason: Realized my errors.
Helmet-kun is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:40   Link #551
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
...If your alternate personality was going to kill the people you love, wouldn't you defy them?
Exactly.
Quote:
Genji-Kumasawa have probably accepted Yasu-Beato in order to keep their counterparts alive. If you had an imaginary friend and you die, then naturally the imaginary friend will die too- unless they existed in the minds of someone else. This is Beato-3 passing on her furniture to Yasu, no?
Actually, Im not too sure what you mean by that first sentence.

Quote:
Someone really needs to make a fan version of BATTLER vs. Battler where he's fighting himself. I mean I know what the implication is but it's still got potential to be kind of funny.
I think it would go along the lines of Battler noticing just how badass BATTLER looks with that cloak, and then the two discuss how awesome they are for awhile before actually getting to the fight itself.
TehChron is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:45   Link #552
Helmet-kun
Local Crackpot
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Somewhere?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TehChron View Post
Actually, Im not too sure what you mean by that first sentence.
I meant that Yasu-Beato needs to exist so that Ronouve and Lia can exist as well. If you deny Beato, you're also denying the existence of her world- the world of magic.
__________________

Last edited by Helmet-kun; 2010-08-22 at 10:27.
Helmet-kun is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 01:49   Link #553
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet-kun View Post
I meant that Yasu-Beato needs to exist so that Ronouve and Lia can exist as well. If you deny Beato, you're also denying the existence of her world- the world of magic.
Yes, but if those alter-egos are simply parts that they're acting, rather than true alternate personalities (as hinted in Episode 6's early parts) then that doesn't really impact their motivation at all. It was just pretending, after all.
TehChron is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 02:27   Link #554
Will Wright
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I think the purpose of Battler, Erika, Ange, and Will is to show different methods of thinking as the reader.

Battler is idealist above all. He wants to believe in the nobility of all characters. He will not look for the easiest culprit. But he won't readily accept any culprit, which leaves him stalled.

Erika just wants an answer. If it fits all the facts and the red, it works. It's true because it works. The end.

Ange thinks she already has the answer, and is looking for things that back it up as she goes. She's cynical and her hope is worn to the quick. If something upends what she assumed was true, she gets upset.

Will wants the right answer, and he's willing to work to get it. But when things get complicated, he starts to get frustrated. When he gets frustrated, he gets upset, and he starts railing against the inherent unfairness and injustice of a story about ritual murders.

Sure, none of them are probably you. But I think he's aware that people read differently and trying to get at the truth with all of them. Maybe.
I think Will speaks for most fans of the golden age of mystery fiction. He at least speaks for both me and a friend from the same publisher as me, and who introduced me to Umineko. Will wants a fair duel.

Ryuukishi said in one of the tips that wanting a fair mystery is like "a boxer who only fights against opponents he can win against." which is, in my opinion, a gross misunderstanding of the genre. I can accept that anyone has their own take of the genre, but that is a take I strongly disagree with.

Van Dine said it best.

Quote:
THE DETECTIVE story is a kind of intellectual game. It is more — it is a sporting event. And for the writing of detective stories there are very definite laws — unwritten, perhaps, but none the less binding; and every respectable and self-respecting concocter of literary mysteries lives up to them. Herewith, then, is a sort Credo, based partly on the practice of all the great writers of detective stories, and partly on the promptings of the honest author's inner conscience.
The murder mystery is a duel between the writer, who must make a puzzle that the reader can, but doesn't solve. Of course that is an easy winning condition. The reader has to find the solution to win.

To make the playing field even, the author is bound by certain rules. Unspoken, but bounding nonetheless. Once you break them, you are cheating in this gentleman's duel. You may win, people may shout your name and praise you, but you have cheated.

Wanting clues is not the same as a boxer wanting to fight against opponents he can win against. It's a boxer wanting to fight against someone in the same weight class. It's a boxer wanting to fight against someone using his bare fists, instead of a pterodactyl with a machine gun.

Umineko is Ryuukishi's take on the genre. It is in my humble opinion, an arrogant assumption. A mystery should be solvable. Ryuukishi assumes that solving and guessing are the same thing. However, they are not.

Umineko consists of around 80 pieces of a hundred-piece puzzle. Sure we can guess what the final picture looks like, but that is not the same as solving. Not everything will fall in place until the author decides to tell us. And that is a bastardization of the mystery genre.

I have discussed this with a few friends who agree with me, but those friends are all mystery writers. Well, and our editor. So we tend to be a bit biased in arguments related to the philosophy of a mystery, and might be being arrogant ourselves.

I think that Ryuukishi is growing arrogant. His novel sounds too elitist. He wants us to guess until we get the right answer without giving us clues, and he thinks he is winning his duel against the readers. He might be, but his Hand of God writing the tale will be met with very disappointed fans once the novelty wore out and they realize how he cheated.
Will Wright is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 02:29   Link #555
Renall
BUY MY BOOK!!!
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Out of curiosity, where and how do you suspect him of cheating? It's an interesting line of speculation, and I think one appropriate especially to the episode threads (you could think of it as a "review" if you like). I have some kernel of an idea what you mean, as I have considered it in the past, but I lack the literary background.
__________________
Redaction of the Golden Witch
I submit that a murder was committed in 1996.
This murder was a "copycat" crime inspired by our tales of 1986.
This story is a redacted confession.

Blog (VN DL) - YouTube Playlists
Battler Solves The Logic Error
Renall is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 02:35   Link #556
Oliver
Back off, I'm a scientist
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: In a badly written story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
But it never says that in any of those games. Just because you hold love as the ultimate ideal does not mean anything in the long run, especially if you are dealing with murder.
Does, in Ep7, as far as I can see. Of course, my understanding of the text is flawed, and of course, this is just an opinion. I am not going to defend it any more than is required to see that what I said is properly understood.

Which, mind you, it wasn't quite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
As much as your definition of love as the 'greates power of all' might be admirable, it isn't the only powerful influence in the world and most people would choose money or fame over love...so if you equal magic to power, then of course that much gold would be your key to magical powers.
Please don't put words into my mouth. Love seen as an ideal -- and ideals have that quality of being unreachable in practice -- does not imply that love actually has any power. It just means that it is impossible to attain through any means but itself, and even that often doesn't work. It is nevertheless seen as something unfit to be ridiculed, because it forms one of the bases of judging everything else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
What is happening here is called detective and mystery fiction and while it might be something that has mostly died out in the west in a classical sense, it is very much alive and kicking in Japan. If you don't like what you get, then maybe Umineko just isn't your kind of genre.
Engaging in a murder mystery and expecting it to get a 純愛-plot like most works by Key is just wrong ....
Consider these facts:
  1. It is perfectly possible for Ryukishi himself to cater to the audience that reads paper mystery fiction, yet for some unusual reason he does not. Instead, he writes a visual novel, and all the way up has great problems with being actually visual about it. Every episode, his direction -- and the process is indeed a lot like the one in film, and takes that, plus very specific technical expertise -- improves, with the most significant developments seen in the end of Ep4 and then being progressively advanced, but it's still hard. Why do it? Print a book and become famous.
  2. Readers who expect to treat his story as just a mystery puzzle are first warned against it (in Ep1 and numerous extra tips) and then heavily ridiculed (Ep5, Ep6).
  3. He rattles on and on about genre conventions, and when possible, quite openly calls them into question. And he does this both for detective fiction, your typical eroge visual novel, and brings up a whole range of genres which traditionally dwell in other media too.
  4. He brings up topics which I, from my background, recognise as key concepts in social anthropology -- at least, my school of it, you're free to make fun of it, but discipline classification 22.00.06 is called "sociology of human spirit" quite officially -- displaying an intuitive understanding of things that take a textbook to formally explain. Things that don't really have any bearing on mystery genre, or even writing good fiction, but have an important connection with the place of literature in culture and re-generation of culture itself.

I'm not expecting a Key plot, by no means... though Ryukishi actually wrote for Key too, just so you know. However, I am expecting that this is literature which has an important message to tell to the world, and "not actually literature" is the major criticism put out against detective novels in the West.

What exactly this message is, in the end, I can't really tell. But the presence of Ange in the ending makes me think that Ep7 is not the message, but just artillery talking before the actual attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
This is quite a lot of points I guess.
But isn't that a huge risk from Ryukishi's pov?
A Russian proverb says "He who doesn't risk never gets to drink champagne.", I suspect it might be that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
If I get what you say right, arc 7's main point is to fire you up by offending you and absolutely wanting to prove what we're told is wrong or at the very least incomplete and unproperly connected.
That is, precisely, my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura View Post
That seems to come with the risk of insulting fans, many of them.
It very much does.

It is one of the rare chances for a writer to be heroic as only a writer can, rather than his characters, which is one of the reasons I have settled in this opinion in the first place. Most other chances involve opposing something dangerous to life and limb, like a government ideology, this would just oppose attitudes of a great many individuals instead -- not dangerous to life and limb, but deadly to writer's career if he doesn't win.

My opinion rests precisely on the assumption that Ryukishi plans to win. I can't claim to know whether he can win, and offer a solution that is more satisfying than what Ep7 offers. It may be that he can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chounokoe View Post
What I wanted to say is, that everybody seems so convinced by now, that things cannot be true, because they aren't nice and sweet and show the characters in a bad light, when there is still a murder-mystery part to that whole story, which just needs sinfull people who have actuall problems, which cause such a tragedy.
Mmm... Saishuu Heiki Kanojo is one of the saddest stories I'm aware of, and has a few side characters which are portrayed quite sympathetic, but commit evil acts in the name of "greater good". Love does not offer the main character any kind of power, and he spends most of the narrative being constantly kicked around by powerful national interests, which torture him and his girl in a fashion not unlike the dark monsters of Lovecraft. In the end, not just "everyone dies", but much of the world is destroyed, and there is no way it's a happy ending.

It nevertheless avoids ridiculing love itself and still sticks to it as a value.
__________________
"The only principle that does not inhibit progress is: anything goes."
— Paul K. Feyerabend, "Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge"

This link has been determined hazardous for the spoiler averse
by the Department of Education.
(updated 2010-08-24)
Oliver is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 02:40   Link #557
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post

Umineko is Ryuukishi's take on the genre. It is in my humble opinion, an arrogant assumption. A mystery should be solvable. Ryuukishi assumes that solving and guessing are the same thing. However, they are not.

Umineko consists of around 80 pieces of a hundred-piece puzzle. Sure we can guess what the final picture looks like, but that is not the same as solving. Not everything will fall in place until the author decides to tell us. And that is a bastardization of the mystery genre.
I actually agree with you, there. But I think it's Ryukishi's own attempt to try and expand the concept of mystery, and push the limits of acceptable storytelling in the modern age to it's utmost.

I believe Erika Furudo says at one point that "Mystery as a Genre was completed 50 years ago (in relation to the gameboard)", and Battler responds by stating that all other stories on their own are indeed worth reading, if only for the sake of the stories that they tell.

In a lot of ways, I agree with your interpretation of what Ryukishi is doing with Umineko, but I wouldn't use the term "arrogant" to describe his stance.

Probably more like "Ambitious" or "Presumptuous".

Quote:
I have discussed this with a few friends who agree with me, but those friends are all mystery writers. Well, and our editor. So we tend to be a bit biased in arguments related to the philosophy of a mystery, and might be being arrogant ourselves.

I think that Ryuukishi is growing arrogant. His novel sounds too elitist. He wants us to guess until we get the right answer without giving us clues, and he thinks he is winning his duel against the readers. He might be, but his Hand of God writing the tale will be met with very disappointed fans once the novelty wore out and they realize how he cheated.
I don't think that this is a case of Ryukishi cheating, so much as it is him taking the pieces and rules usually used for a Mystery, and then reworking them into a completely different, yet still very similar, genre of work.

Think about all the times the "game" itself is compared to chess, even though it clearly is nothing like chess itself. And you can see that perhaps that's how Ryukishi views Umineko.

Umineko is like a mystery, and uses a lot of the same parts and such, but ultimately is something altogether different? Or perhaps some kind of "evolution" of the genre as he sees it?

I don't doubt that the situation you're talking about is something Ryukishi himself is fully aware of, hence why he's making sport of the "Rules" of the Mystery Genre, and then subverting them utterly while also adhering to them. Kind of like all of our theories regarding the truth of the Game Board needing to both work in conjunction with the Red Truth, while also working around the limitations they impose.
TehChron is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 02:41   Link #558
Will Wright
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Out of curiosity, where and how do you suspect him of cheating? It's an interesting line of speculation, and I think one appropriate especially to the episode threads (you could think of it as a "review" if you like). I have some kernel of an idea what you mean, as I have considered it in the past, but I lack the literary background.
I am a beginner myself, my first novel is getting published in 2011. But I have studied mystery novels since I was a kid, so I think I have enough background to make what I'm about to declare, but please forgive my implied arrogance.

Ryuukishi has said that the novel is "solvable" as of episode 4.

That is where I accuse him of cheating. He assumes that "solvable" and "guessable" are interchangeable.

There are tons of solutions we could propose right now, of varying probabilities of being right. His recurring theme of alternate truths hinders the novel from being fair. He basically tells us that the answer is a number between 1 and 10, and wants us to guess which one it is. Sure we can get the right answer, but even if we do, it won't be because we solved his puzzle.

By offering us "alternative truths" he is not giving us a chance to establish a solution. A true solution in a mystery novel must be such that all other solutions seem ridiculous in comparison. He gave us too many variables.

He broke the most sacred Van Dine rule, while probably thinking he didn't.

5. The culprit must be determined by logical deductions — not by accident or coincidence or unmotivated confession. To solve a criminal problem in this latter fashion is like sending the reader on a deliberate wild-goose chase, and then telling him, after he has failed, that you had the object of his search up your sleeve all the time. Such an author is no better than a practical joker.

Ryuukishi did not lay out the clues, he laid out a reality. It is within reason for us to guess who the culprit is based on said reality, but we are merely guessing not deducing.

In the mystery genre, you are not allowed to make a clue that will leave your reader unsure of whether he solved it or not. Ryuukishi calls it cowardly, but he is the truly cowardly one. He is the same as a schoolyard bully trying to pick a fight with the weakest child there is.

From the moment where finding the right answer becomes a matter of luck rather than deducing, as deductions don't point towards a decisive truth, he failed as a mystery writer. He insists he did not, but I disagree with it.
Will Wright is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 02:52   Link #559
musouka
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
Ryuukishi has said that the novel is "solvable" as of episode 4.

That is where I accuse him of cheating. He assumes that "solvable" and "guessable" are interchangeable.

There are tons of solutions we could propose right now, of varying probabilities of being right. His recurring theme of alternate truths hinders the novel from being fair. He basically tells us that the answer is a number between 1 and 10, and wants us to guess which one it is. Sure we can get the right answer, but even if we do, it won't be because we solved his puzzle.
Sorry, I have to disagree. I think the game is actually solvable in the fullest sense of the word, as long as you actually create a theory based on what the text says, as opposed to what is "possible". You are free to disagree, of course, but when I read EP7, I felt at peace with what he had put forth as the answer.

It was actually quite close to the theory of a friend and myself. We created this theory in its most initial form after EP3. And we could have solved the core mystery entirely if we didn't blind ourselves to aspects of the story because we didn't like what they were implying.
__________________
雨の日も晴れの日も
いつの日も愛してた
それだけは 今もまだ
ずっと変りはしない
musouka is offline  
Old 2010-08-22, 02:54   Link #560
TehChron
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Wright View Post
I am a beginner myself, my first novel is getting published in 2011. But I have studied mystery novels since I was a kid, so I think I have enough background to make what I'm about to declare, but please forgive my implied arrogance.

Ryuukishi has said that the novel is "solvable" as of episode 4.

That is where I accuse him of cheating. He assumes that "solvable" and "guessable" are interchangeable.
I actually disagree with you. The creation of multiple theories based on differing interpretations of the events presented towards you, and then eliminating those possibilities as new evidence comes to light is also a manner of deduction.

Quote:
There are tons of solutions we could propose right now, of varying probabilities of being right. His recurring theme of alternate truths hinders the novel from being fair. He basically tells us that the answer is a number between 1 and 10, and wants us to guess which one it is. Sure we can get the right answer, but even if we do, it won't be because we solved his puzzle.
Again, I disagree, we're not being asked to guess a number between 1 and 10, we're being asked to come up with 1 through 10 and possibly more on our own, and are then left to cross off those proven to be impossible, while also altering the rest of the list as time goes on.

The fact of the matter is that Ryukishi explicitly calls out readers who don't bother to think for themselves, and are content to have their answers spoon fed to them. Guessing based on (at present) incomplete information is a part of deduction. As is revising those opinions when new information comes to light.

Quote:
By offering us "alternative truths" he is not giving us a chance to establish a solution. A true solution in a mystery novel must be such that all other solutions seem ridiculous in comparison. He gave us too many variables.
We have yet to see the full context of the true solution. It's far too early to claim that Ryukishi has done any such thing.

Quote:
He broke the most sacred Van Dine rule, while probably thinking he didn't.

5. The culprit must be determined by logical deductions — not by accident or coincidence or unmotivated confession. To solve a criminal problem in this latter fashion is like sending the reader on a deliberate wild-goose chase, and then telling him, after he has failed, that you had the object of his search up your sleeve all the time. Such an author is no better than a practical joker.

Ryuukishi did not lay out the clues, he laid out a reality. It is within reason for us to guess who the culprit is based on said reality, but we are merely guessing not deducing.
As I explained above, I heavily disagree with that interpretation.
Quote:
In the mystery genre, you are not allowed to make a clue that will leave your reader unsure of whether he solved it or not. Ryuukishi calls it cowardly, but he is the truly cowardly one. He is the same as a schoolyard bully trying to pick a fight with the weakest child there is.

From the moment where finding the right answer becomes a matter of luck rather than deducing, as deductions don't point towards a decisive truth, he failed as a mystery writer. He insists he did not, but I disagree with it.
No, it's not a matter of luck at all. It's a matter of skill.

The very existence of the Watson represents the level of the average reader. Ryukishi is stating that a reader must reach the level of the Detective in order to be able to accurately deduce the one real "truth" amongst all the possibilities introduced up until this point. And this is especially true with regards to the Question Arcs themselves.

The clues themselves were there, it's just that they were presented in such a way as to not draw immediate attention to them. On the other hand, it's clearly indicated in the later Episodes that a true "detective" would not let such a minor and positively earthshaking development escape their notice.

If you're insisting that Ryukishi cheated by deciding to not hold our hands and lead us along, then I think that's simply highly arrogant.

I welcome the challenge Ryukishi07 has presented to us, it's refreshing, trolltastic, condescending, taunting, and incredibly exhilarating to butt heads with.
TehChron is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
We use Silk.