Character discussion - Kyou

[dgreater1]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

By that definition, practically all hot-headed people are tsunderes.

Not at all, I did mention tsuntsun and deredere, anyway, that's like saying Akira has deredere side.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by dgreater1

I don't really understand this other definition some people speak off, but in my case... I'll make it short, a tsundere (to me) is a person who is wild in nature but switches mood like crazy. Take for example, the 3rd picture that KaneDragon posted, Kyou's mood when she threw that dictionary at Sunohara's face was wild, then she became embarrassed when Sunohara commented about something he saw, then switches back to her wild side.

I think that's normal reaction for every girls. I don't know the way guys think but if another guy sees a me in underwear no matter who it is I'll be embarrassed. Therefore, this scene to prove Kyou is tsundere is void.

[dgreater1]

I think that's normal reaction for every girls. I don't know the way guys think but if another guy sees a me in underwear no matter who it is I'll be embarrassed. Therefore, this scene to prove Kyou is tsundere is void.

Let's sing School Rumble's Scramble! Guruguru mawaru, guruguru mawaru, guruguru mawaru, guruguru mawaru...

Ignore my singing... Anyway, your definition of tsundere is more on the side of character development (the traditional, old), while some of us are using the evolve form of tsundere where the said character's personality is what matters. Kyou is tsundere because she goes tsuntsun and deredere (moonstruck for a much easier term to understand) everytime and doesn't really need a special catalyst to draw it out. Much like Kagurazaka Azuna, Anya (Negima), Shana, Sonozaki Mion, Houjou Satoko (the lonely... erm rephrase... the loli tsundere), Suiseiseki, Shinku, Sawatari Makoto, Sawachika Eri, Asuka Langley etc., or do you want to argue about Hiiragi Kagami not being a tsundere too? And by the way, don't think that's the only time you'll see her mood swing.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0YuphModU

Did you see Shiraishi's reaction when he was asked if "Kagami is not a tsundere, then what is she?"

Anyway, I give up if that still doesn't make sense to you...

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by dgreater1

Ignore my singing... Anyway, your definition of tsundere is more on the side of character development (the traditional, old), while some of us are using the evolve form of tsundere where the said character's personality is what matters. Kyou is tsundere because she goes tsuntsun and deredere (moonstruck for a much easier term to understand) everytime and doesn't really need a special catalyst to draw it out.

Both definitions use the same basis, and seriously, if there isn't a catalyst, why characters would be tsundere to begin with? Why would Kyou turns deredere without Tomoya (if she is a tsundere) ? Why Louise would be without Saito, etc?

Again, the only "deredere" part (only one so far) of Kyou was shown with the pantsu which is a behaviour to almost ALL anime girls, absolutely not only for tsundere. Besides, it isn't even a demonstration of deredere. Embarassement doesn't show any form of mandatory lovey dovey side.

Much like Kagurazaka Azuna, Anya (Negima), Shana, Sonozaki Mion, Houjou Satoko (the lonely... erm rephrase... the loli tsundere), Suiseiseki, Shinku, Sawatari Makoto, Sawachika Eri, Asuka Langley etc., or do you want to argue about Hiiragi Kagami not being a tsundere too? And by the way, don't think that's the only time you'll see her mood swing.

...
I think I blogged like no time. Excuse me but... Mion and Satoko as Tsundere...!?
Mion is the typical tomboyish girl who can't express her feelings. She has RARE mood swing, and she DOESN'T harbor any opposition to keiichi AT ALL. If anything, it "could" be valid if she was having an aversion to him. But she is NOWHERE from being a tsundere... she DOES NOT have a Tsun to begin with!
That's the same for Satoko, who doesn't have ANY tsun either !

Asuna and Anya ARE tsundere, and the catalyst is negi's actions.
The rest of list are acting because of a catalyst... that has NOTHING to do with the first definition... Both definitions (old and modern) follow the same point: an initial cold/brutal interaction with their interest, which either melt, or switch with the deredere.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Qh0YuphModU

Did you see Shiraishi's reaction when he was asked if "Kagami is not a tsundere, then what is she?"

Anyway, I give up if that still doesn't make sense to you...

Kagami is obviously a Tsundere of the second type, and act harsh towards only Konata, as it is her friendship interest but can't comprehend her fellow habits, nor she can't allow herself weaknesses, otherwise, Konata would jump on her. She is a tsundere because Konata is her catalyst...
Baiscally, Shiraishi was too strict with his own definition, while the definition mutated to allow both type. Rather a new standard? who knows, but Kagami's case is nowhere near of Kyou's, that's how i see it.

Sheesh... at this rate, Tomoyo and EVEN Nagisa will be considered as Tsundere if they just have "some" mood swing because of Tomoya.


... i wasn't willing to deviate the discussion into "tsundere" thesis, but seriously, the whole deal is based on only ONE sentence giving the whole deal for both known type of this category of character.
Once again: traits are shared in several archtype, and getting one of them doesn't put a character in the category itself.
As an example, Tomboyish and Tsundere characters share some similarities, but if you pick a "violent girl", that doesn't mean she is 100% a tsundere, she might be tomboyish instead.

[iamandragon]

Just in case if people have misunderstood me...

Just while everyone is arguing about mood change is Tsundere or not, I am here trying to say: Kyou was NEVER Tsun. She is always trying to act friendly, just like guys always punch each other(eastern guys do that all the time, don't ask me why), Kyou was trying to express friendship through "the guy's way". She is wild, crazy, and sometimes like a cat, but definitely never been Tsun.

If you disagree, please list any Tsun moments of Kyou for me and I'll explain.

[dgreater1]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

and seriously, if there isn't a catalyst, why characters would be tsundere to begin with?

I said it doesn't really need a special catalyst since it's about personality. I didn't say, it doesn't need a catalyst, how would you pull out their personality if there isn't anyone to pull it out? And in Kyou's case, Tomoya ( person who she doesn't have an idea that she likes) is there to pull out her tsutsun and deredere personality.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I think I blogged like no time. Excuse me but... Mion and Satoko as Tsundere...!?
Mion is the typical tomboyish girl who can't express her feelings. She has RARE mood swing, and she DOESN'T harbor any opposition to keiichi AT ALL. If anything, it "could" be valid if she was having an aversion to him. But she is NOWHERE from being a tsundere... she DOES NOT have a Tsun to begin with!
That's the same for Satoko, who doesn't have ANY tsun either!

Yup, Mion is a typical tomboy who can't express her feelings. But she doesn't need a Keiichi to be tsuntsun, she acts mildly tsun, same with Satoko.

Anyway a clearer interpretation of tsuntsun
It's about mood being bad (wild) and not a person being bad (wild).

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Kagami is obviously a Tsundere, and act harsh towards only Konata, as it is her friendship interest but can comprehend her fellow habits, nor she can't allow herself weaknesses, otherwise, Konata would jump on her. She is a tsundere because Konata is her catalyst...

She can also be tsundere without Konata, it just happens that Konata is the only right person in the show who can pull out her tsundere side just about right.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Sheesh... at this rate, Tomoyo and EVEN Nagisa will be considered as Tsundere if they are considered like it because of Tomoya..."

Erm... and why in the world did they become tsun? They weren't even close to tsun to begin with. And I didn't say having mood swing is tsundere but rather having a mood that swings from tsuntsun to deredere is tsundere.

Tsundere isn't just all about denial of feeling towards something or character development or whatever, but some sort of a personality that goes tsuntsun and deredere or a person whose tsuntsun and deredere personality is above most of her personality. The catalyst you're talking about is someone who pulls out that tsuntsun and deredere out of her every time. Take for example, Asuka, she's tsuntsun most of the time towards Shinji, but when it comes to Kaji she becomes deredere, making her tsundere. And as I said before we're going in circle again.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Just in case if people have misunderstood me...

Just while everyone is arguing about mood change is Tsundere or not, I am here trying to say: Kyou was NEVER Tsun. She is always trying to act friendly, just like guys always punch each other(eastern guys do that all the time, don't ask me why), Kyou was trying to express friendship through "the guy's way". She is wild, crazy, and sometimes like a cat, but definitely never been Tsun.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say that's absolutely nonsense (no disrespect). What you have just said is exactly a form of Tsun. If that isn't Tsun, then I don't know what is. Kyou's Tsun is more of the physical type compared to Suzumiya Haruhi's mood-swing Tsun.

In very simple terms, Tsundere is "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". That is what Kyou is, in that she acts all combative to try and hide her feelings for Tomoya.

If you disagree, please list any Tsun moments of Kyou for me and I'll explain.

For now I'm sleepy. And I'm sure houkuholic here would gladly provide a long list for you.

[Skyfall]

I suggest we simply drop this whole thing. It is obvious we are not going to obtain an agreement whether Kyou is a tsundere or not if we can't even agree to what tsundere really is in the first place. No wonder this whole thing is going in circles

[iamandragon]

I kind of agree...there are people who thinks going wild is Tsun...if that so...how do you explain a girl going wild? Does she has to destroy a continent to be a wild instead of a Tsun...? Kyou never once did deny her feelings for Tomoya, it's just she acts like a guy and never says it out loud. Well until houkuholic shows up then...

[dgreater1]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

I kind of agree...there are people who thinks going wild is Tsun...if that so...how do you explain a girl going wild? Does she has to destroy a continent to be a wild instead of a Tsun...? Kyou never once did deny her feelings for Tomoya, it's just she acts like a guy and never says it out loud. Well until houkuholic shows up then...

You don't get the idea, you don't need to act wild to be tsun but you can act wild for having a tsun personality. And Kyou is a person who has a tsun personality so she acts wild. You don't need to deny something in order to be a tsun because being a tsun means being a person who has a bad mood. And she doesn't just act like a guy, she almost always go in bad mood mode (tsun mode) making her tsun. What's your definition of "tsun" anyway? Someone who has to deny her feeling in a wild demeanor? That thing is what you call being a tsundere and not tsun. She's trying to deny that things in a wild demeanor (being tsun) because she feels embarrassed or let's say denying it while having conflicts with her own words or being moonstruck, in longer words, denying it in a confusing manner (being dere).

And for what I know "tsuntsun" in tsun is used to describe behavior and it usually means "aloof" but if you want a different description click this tsuntsun

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by dgreater1

Ignore my singing... Anyway, your definition of tsundere is more on the side of character development (the traditional, old), while some of us are using the evolve form of tsundere where the said character's personality is what matters. Kyou is tsundere because she goes tsuntsun and deredere (moonstruck for a much easier term to understand) everytime and doesn't really need a special catalyst to draw it out.

Given that you stick to the definition of personality (when it ISN'T), I'll counter with this: When has Kyou been deredere, then?

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Just while everyone is arguing about mood change is Tsundere or not, I am here trying to say: Kyou was NEVER Tsun.

I agree, based on what has happened in the anime so far.

Originally Posted by dgreater1

I said it doesn't really need a special catalyst since it's about personality. I didn't say, it doesn't need a catalyst, how would you pull out their personality if there isn't anyone to pull it out? And in Kyou's case, Tomoya ( person who she doesn't have an idea that she likes) is there to pull out her tsutsun and deredere personality.

I haven't seen any tsuntsun nor deredere behavior from Kyou so far.

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to say that's absolutely nonsense (no disrespect). What you have just said is exactly a form of Tsun. If that isn't Tsun, then I don't know what is. Kyou's Tsun is more of the physical type compared to Suzumiya Haruhi's mood-swing Tsun.

In very simple terms, Tsundere is "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". That is what Kyou is, in that she acts all combative to try and hide her feelings for Tomoya.

Excuse me, but have we seen any specific scenes in the anime so far that indicates Kyou has feelings for Tomoya? I believe we need to address that que3stion before going on to whether Kyou's behavior is tsun or not.





I think we need to settle this:

1. Tsundere is a behavior tha forms when one has feelings for another person

2. It's too early to tell.

[iamandragon]

We were also basing our information on game.

Kyou is a always in a happy-go-around mood. The only time she was in a bad mood was in the rain. (game) Just because she acts violent doesn't mean she is in a bad mood. And Kyou wasn't embarrassed to say her feelings, but she is

Spoiler for game spoiler, careful!:

Not wanting Tomoya to like her so that she can give her sister, Ryou, a chance.

The script writer also never intended for Kyou to be a tsundere (as mentioned in the interview), but as a ‘girl who can always approach as a friend’. Although you can argue that a 'girl who can always approach as a friend' does not conflict with the fact that she can be tsundere, keep this in mind, Kai never intended to created a tsundere--he is trying to create a girl who is as close to real life situation as possible(and hence the Anti-KEY theme of him) So it's all right if you think realistic for Kyou.

[Pendevous]

I've always liked tsundere characters, and Kyou is no exception. I even made a wallpaper for her hahhaha! Just sad that I didn't get to see here light blue panties. XD

[iamandragon]

Don't just jump to conclusions yet, we still havn't decided weather Kyou is tsundere or not!

[dgreater1]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

Given that you stick to the definition of personality (when it ISN'T), I'll counter with this: When has Kyou been deredere, then?

When she kicked Sunohara for commenting about what he saw. It's a simple deredere reaction where she acts really violent. She got embrassed that Tomoya might notice what he just said and so she switched the attention to Sunohara getting a massive damage kick that sent him off to lala land. That's deredere to you with a mixture of hostility.

Originally Posted by iamadragon

Just while everyone is arguing about mood change is Tsundere or not, I am here trying to say: Kyou was NEVER Tsun.
======================
Kyou is a always in a happy-go-around mood. The only time she was in a bad mood was in the rain. (game) Just because she acts violent doesn't mean she is in a bad mood. And Kyou wasn't embarrassed to say her feelings, but she is

So her bad temper/mood (tsuntsun) which also implies being wild isn't supposed to be tsuntsun? Like I said that kind of personality is what makes a tsun. Being bad tempered/mood to the point they become a bit wild or angry. Anyway, Tsuntsun doesn't imply bad mood as in, suffering because something happened. When she was in the rain, that wasn't what tsuntsun means. That interpretation of yours about bad mood is "not in good mood, disheartened" instead of being in a bad temper.

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

I haven't seen any tsuntsun nor deredere behavior from Kyou so far.

Refer to the "bi" scene and to the Botan scene, that's a tsuntsun scenario or do you think she's not in bad temper/mood there? Anyway, the only deredere scenario I cought was *read the first quote above*, although, she might have been in deredere mode about the "bi" thing, I didn't notice so I'm not sure...

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

Excuse me, but have we seen any specific scenes in the anime so far that indicates Kyou has feelings for Tomoya? I believe we need to address that que3stion before going on to whether Kyou's behavior is tsun or not.

A very important thing to remember, being tsundere doesn't always mean, the tsundere character has to be in love, there are tsundere who are not in love with the main character. Take for example what I said before, Asuka is tsuntsun towards Shinji but deredere towards Kaji, Kagurazaka Azuna is tsuntsun towards Negi but deredere towards Takahata, well, she can be deredere towards Negi sometimes too. Hiiragi Kagami is tsuntsun towards Konata and also deredere towards her (she's not in love with her though). As for Kyou, she is tsuntsun towards Sunohara and Tomoya but becomes deredere when she's in an unfavorable position (it doesn't mean you can't be in deredere mode if you're not in love). Kyou's personality is typically ill-natured/wild/hot-tempered (tsun), but she gets embarrassed easily (dere). And that's one of the traits of a tsundere.

Remember how Shiraishi got stumped when Akira asked him "what is she if she's not a tsundere" after butting in with "it's too early to decide that."? He couldn't answer right because he's following the traditional tsundere definition where character development is the main focus. Kagami isn't a developing character, she stayed the same all throughout the show but they considered her tsundere because of her usually hot-tempered (tsun) but easily embarrassed (dere) when dealing with Konata personality.

Originally Posted by iamadragon

The script writer also never intended for Kyou to be a tsundere (as mentioned in the interview), but as a ‘girl who can always approach as a friend’. Although you can argue that a 'girl who can always approach as a friend' does not conflict with the fact that she can be tsundere, keep this in mind, Kai never intended to created a tsundere--he is trying to create a girl who is as close to real life situation as possible(and hence the Anti-KEY theme of him) So it's all right if you think realistic for Kyou.

The script writer also never intended for Kyou to be a tsundere... there's your answer.

[Kinny Riddle]

Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae

Excuse me, but have we seen any specific scenes in the anime so far that indicates Kyou has feelings for Tomoya? I believe we need to address that que3stion before going on to whether Kyou's behavior is tsun or not.

As you said, you're basing it on what you've seen SO FAR from the anime. I base my deductions from her story in the game, from which the anime is based on. You can't just say she isn't tsundere because she hasn't showed any such traits in the anime yet even when she has in the game.

Speaking of which, I need to get back on helping out on the translation of it.

Kyou is a always in a happy-go-around mood. The only time she was in a bad mood was in the rain. (game) Just because she acts violent doesn't mean she is in a bad mood. And Kyou wasn't embarrassed to say her feelings, but she is

And who said anything about "tsun" only applying in occasions when the character is "being in a bad temper/mood"? For you detractors, your definitions of "tsun" and "dere" are probably way too narrow. Know that tsunderes comes in different forms and shapes. You cannot just say "all cats are white, so that is not a cat because it's black".

I go by the more flexible definition: "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". It can be expressed physically or emotionally. "Cold" can mean being violent, or rude (in a cheerful or menacing way). "Warm" can mean feeling insecure, embarrassed. and any of the more "girly" traits. And it can also apply on RL ladies, like Vexx's wife, for example.

[ElementSun]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

We were also basing our information on game.

Kyou is a always in a happy-go-around mood. The only time she was in a bad mood was in the rain. (game) Just because she acts violent doesn't mean she is in a bad mood. And Kyou wasn't embarrassed to say her feelings, but she is

Spoiler for game spoiler, careful!:

Not wanting Tomoya to like her so that she can give her sister, Ryou, a chance.

The script writer also never intended for Kyou to be a tsundere (as mentioned in the interview), but as a ‘girl who can always approach as a friend’. Although you can argue that a 'girl who can always approach as a friend' does not conflict with the fact that she can be tsundere, keep this in mind, Kai never intended to created a tsundere--he is trying to create a girl who is as close to real life situation as possible(and hence the Anti-KEY theme of him) So it's all right if you think realistic for Kyou.

I think the definition for "a girl you can always approach as a friend" is platonic. Would this term fit well with Kyou's personality?

[Kang Seung Jae]

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

As you said, you're basing it on what you've seen SO FAR from the anime. I base my deductions from her story in the game, from which the anime is based on. You can't just say she isn't tsundere because she hasn't showed any such traits in the anime yet even when she has in the game.

I'm keeping the game and anime seperate, for the benefit of the people who haven't played the game.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by dgreater1

When she kicked Sunohara for commenting about what he saw. It's a simple deredere reaction where she acts really violent. She got embrassed that Tomoya might notice what he just said and so she switched the attention to Sunohara getting a massive damage kick that sent him off to lala land. That's deredere to you with a mixture of hostility.

I would beat ANYONE into a state of unconcious if they sees my underwear. Maybe it's okay for westerns to have their underwear seen, but definitely not us easterns.


[/quote]So her bad temper/mood (tsuntsun) which also implies being wild isn't supposed to be tsuntsun? Like I said that kind of personality is what makes a tsun. Being bad tempered/mood to the point they become a bit wild or angry. Anyway, Tsuntsun doesn't imply bad mood as in, suffering because something happened. When she was in the rain, that wasn't what tsuntsun means. That interpretation of yours about bad mood is "not in good mood, disheartened" instead of being in a bad temper.[/quote]
I repeat, Kyou was never in a bad mood. Her wild acts are mainly her way to express friendliness, like the guys do.

Refer to the "bi" scene and to the Botan scene, that's a tsuntsun scenario or do you think she's not in bad temper/mood there? Anyway, the only deredere scenario I cought was *read the first quote above*, although, she might have been in deredere mode about the "bi" thing, I didn't notice so I'm not sure...

Again, a realistic reaction. Normal girls don't want to be called a lesbian or bisexual. My 'I'm bi for Kyou' statement was merely a joke, but girls don't want their sex direction to be mistakened because it is disgusting. Would you be happy if someone you know announces to the public that you are gay? (assuming you are straight)

A very important thing to remember, being tsundere doesn't always mean, the tsundere character has to be in love, there are tsundere who are not in love with the main character. Take for example what I said before, Asuka is tsuntsun towards Shinji but deredere towards Kaji, Kagurazaka Azuna is tsuntsun towards Negi but deredere towards Takahata, well, she can be deredere towards Negi sometimes too. Hiiragi Kagami is tsuntsun towards Konata and also deredere towards her (she's not in love with her though). As for Kyou, she is tsuntsun towards Sunohara and Tomoya but becomes deredere when she's in an unfavorable position (it doesn't mean you can't be in deredere mode if you're not in love). Kyou's personality is typically ill-natured/wild/hot-tempered (tsun), but she gets embarrassed easily (dere). And that's one of the traits of a tsundere.

Still trying to reference the Botan scene? Normal reaction.
Besides, no one likes Sunohara. Or are you trying to say the rugby team are tsuntsun towards Sunohara and deredere when with themselves?

Remember how Shiraishi got stumped when Akira asked him "what is she if she's not a tsundere" after butting in with "it's too early to decide that."? He couldn't answer right because he's following the traditional tsundere definition where character development is the main focus. Kagami isn't a developing character, she stayed the same all throughout the show but they considered her tsundere because of her usually hot-tempered (tsun) but easily embarrassed (dere) when dealing with Konata personality.

Let's stop referencing other anime shall we...and like everyone else said: Akira and Kyou are different. It's pointless to compare each other unless you find a character identical to Kyou.

The script writer also never intended for Kyou to be a tsundere... there's your answer.

Exactly. And therefore the chance of her being a tsundere is low.

Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle

I go by the more flexible definition: "cold on the outside, warm on the inside". It can be expressed physically or emotionally. "Cold" can mean being violent, or rude (in a cheerful or menacing way). "Warm" can mean feeling insecure, embarrassed. and any of the more "girly" traits. And it can also apply on RL ladies, like Vexx's wife, for example.

Her acts of violence a of the 'warm' type of violence. She's beating up Sunohara because she cares for Botan, not that she is angry of Sunohara. (not like she doesn't dislike him anyways) The last kick of hers is of normal reaction. Her acts of trying to strangle Tomoya is because she cares for her reputation(a normal reaction). Now, bring in more examples of Kyou being tsun?

[Ascaloth]

Gosh, this is going a bit overboard.

Can we at least wait to see a bit more of Kyou first, before continuing this "discussion"?

Right now, I personally am not going to move one way or the other, until her part in the story is played out at least.