(L) Hakuouki: Shinsengumi Kitan anime (Seasons 1 & 2)

[orion]

Originally Posted by MikaMiaka

Sorry, I have to call you out on this BS. That perception is just a perception that guys cling to.

It isn't what girls want. We want to be rescued, sure, but we also want to be able to take care of ourselves too. We want to be able to save the day too, or at least, not be a total and complete fuck up, and we want the girls in our entertainment to do the same. We are not that much different from men or beasts in this respect.

Please recognize that there's a difference between getting rescued and always bringing on crappy situations upon yourself and waiting for the guy to come rescue you. There is also a difference between constantly espousing self righteousness and indignation while you stand there and preach what you fail to do.

And moreover, it isn't even what girls want, it's like indoctrinating girls into thinking this is what they should and do want. So, it's like the vice versa of what you are arguing.

This is the worst case of subservient female I have seen in a long while, and like Halad, I asked myself whether it was possible to be this annoyed about a two dimensional character. What kind of protagonist just stands there and does nothing while a friend gets killed? And after 13 effing episodes and years with the gang, for chrissake. Or, if she was scared, at least run away.

It's unacceptable and it's just a major disservice to chalk it up to "well, they are just catering to the fanbase." The amount of annoyance you have read in this thread alone should already tell you that this isn't what we want.

And you keep on bringing in other titles to justify your position. What about the other side of the coin? Ripley? Sarah O'Connor? Buffy? Shurrei? Haruhi? Kajika? And even Belle in Beauty and the Beast took matters into her own hands, she was not helpless. She refused Gaston's advances perfectly. She had spunk. She knew when to sacrifice herself and when it was a useless endeavor. Chi knows nothing in this regard. It's just a terrible, awful, one plane character that I draw mustaches on in my spare time.

If anything, this is more of a male fantasy than a modern day female fantasy. "Look how happy I am when you tell me to make you tea!" "Look how happy I am to get you to eat!" "Look at how much I care for you by always telling you I need to be useful!" Disgusting.


*****
And yet, I keep on watching. FML.

You brought Belle into the discussion who was saved by a 6 yo boy in the form of a teacup and also by the Beast. Belle would have been married to Gaston if not for the Beast.

Belle also had that princess kiss at the end. Just like Chizuru in the ED.

Ripley? No more films in the franchise.
Sarah Connor? She died of old age. Only a voice on the tape in the latest Terminator movie.
Buffy? Last time Buffy had a title was when?

You only recently had Tiana from The Princess and the Frog who got her princess moment in it and Alice from Alice in Wonderland. Alice wasn't considered sane in the title either just like Belle if you listen to the lyrics. None of these are Asian title. And what recent shojo went live-action? Kimi ni Todoke. That protag is so not Buffy, Belle, Sarah, or Ripley.

This is catering to a portion of the female fanbase. The portion that likes their guys hunky and heroic, wants to be saved and wants a bit of romance (being an otome game based anime)... She can't get around serving the tea mostly due to the time period. She's not rich enough and she chose to stay. She's got a thing for Hiji so she's locked in to being traditional.

This is the female version of a male VN.

[MikaMiaka]

Originally Posted by PreSage

It seems that most anime/manga portray females this way, sadly enough. Whenever I do find gems with strong female leads, I'll be thrilled but those are few and far in between. I've also noticed that in older animes/manga, there are more female characters portrayed stronger than they are now - of course, I could be wrong. But I've always wondered, is what reflected in anime/manga really the general perception of women in Japanese society?

I had brought this notion up earlier; perhaps it's the time period of the show and women did act that way (thereby remaining historically accurate?), or perhaps it is a Japanese cultural thing. I really don't know. But then again, we have so many kick ass females in other animes too -- I mean, Kallen was probably the most popular female character in Code Geass. They are steeped in modernity and seem to be a very progressive society if the array of of entertainment stemming from there is any indication. But at the same time, there also seems to a countervailing underpinning that suggests that women there are not as empowered as women in America simply because what they have works for them. But it only works for them because entertainment portraying women in the way this show does stagnants the level of forward thinking that can be achieved. It's a case of feeding the values to the young. But I don't know. I'm just harboring guesses. But, for example, I know that child custody hearings in divorce proceedings are almost nil over there because it is assumed, barring any exigent circumstances or abnormal facts in the case, the children will remain with their mother and not their father. It's just the way it is. So some things change, but some things remain the same.

I saw a documentary a while back about host clubs in Japan and the women held the cash and the hosts would try to please them, but at the same time, there was this unmistakable idea that the male hosts were the ones really holding the power because they possessed the qualities to make women spend more. I saw it and thought -- if it were female host clubs, the females would just be lowly strippers or hookers and would be treated that way. But with the male hosts, there was a certain level of respect and admiration that just would not be present if the situation was reversed (barring the requisite respect for Geishas, for course.)

Originally Posted by orion

You brought Belle into the discussion who was saved by a 6 yo boy in the form of a teacup and also by the Beast. Belle would have been married to Gaston if not for the Beast.

Belle also had that princess kiss at the end. Just like Chizuru in the ED.

Ripley? No more films in the franchise.
Sarah Connor? She died of old age. Only a voice on the tape in the latest Terminator movie.
Buffy? Last time Buffy had a title was when?

You only recently had Tiana from The Princess and the Frog who got her princess moment in it and Alice from Alice in Wonderland. Alice wasn't considered sane in the title either just like Belle if you listen to the lyrics. None of these are Asian title. And what recent shojo went live-action? Kimi ni Todoke. That protag is so not Buffy, Belle, Sarah, or Ripley.

This is catering to a portion of the female fanbase. The portion that likes their guys hunky and heroic, wants to be saved and wants a bit of romance (being an otome game based anime)... She can't get around serving the tea mostly due to the time period. She's not rich enough and she chose to stay. She's got a thing for Hiji so she's locked in to being traditional.

This is the female version of a male VN.

Why does it matter how old those characters are, or if they died, or if their series have ended? My point was that those were kick ass females that we all liked, and some are basically icons, precisely because they were kick ass. So that refutes your notion that weak females cater to female audiences. I think if anything, males like the notion of weak females. But for certain, no females like the notion of weak and stupid females. We all, every individual of the entire human race, want to be strong.

For the Belle issue, I vehemently disagree that she would have ended up with Gaston. That idea is laughable, hahahahaha. She hates that guy and she would put up a hell of a fight to not marry him. She would probably do it if her father's life was on the line, but otherwise, I don't see it happening. And she was rescued by the minions but really, any protagonist, male or female, will be rescued by minions when the plot calls for it. Simply put, you cannot equate her to Chi. Their personalities are completely different. You're really reaching there.

One thing that seems to be disconnected between these conversations is the fact that though audiences like it when the hero comes to save the day, we don't like it when the female lead is painted to this degree of subservience and helplessness. Do you know what I mean?

They are just overdoing it at this point. Perhaps it is being done for the potential payoff. Who knows.

[orion]

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by MikaMiaka

I had brought this notion up earlier; perhaps it's the time period of the show and women did act that way (thereby remaining historically accurate?), or perhaps it is a Japanese cultural thing. I really don't know. But then again, we have so many kick ass females in other animes too -- I mean, Kallen was probably the most popular female character in Code Geass. They are steeped in modernity and seem to be a very progressive society if the array of of entertainment stemming from there is any indication. But at the same time, there also seems to a countervailing underpinning that suggests that women there are not as empowered as women in America simply because what they have works for them. But it only works for them because entertainment portraying women in the way this show does stagnants the level of forward thinking that can be achieved. It's a case of feeding the values to the young. But I don't know. I'm just harboring guesses. But, for example, I know that child custody hearings in divorce proceedings are almost nil over there because it is assumed, barring any exigent circumstances or abnormal facts in the case, the children will remain with their mother and not their father. It's just the way it is. So some things change, but some things remain the same.

I saw a documentary a while back about host clubs in Japan and the women held the cash and the hosts would try to please them, but at the same time, there was this unmistakable idea that the male hosts were the ones really holding the power because they possessed the qualities to make women spend more. I saw it and thought -- if it were female host clubs, the females would just be lowly strippers or hookers and would be treated that way. But with the male hosts, there was a certain level of respect and admiration that just would not be present if the situation was reversed (barring the requisite respect for Geishas, for course.)



Why does it matter how old those characters are, or if they died, or if their series have ended? My point was that those were kick ass females that we all liked, and some are basically icons, precisely because they were kick ass. So that refutes your notion that weak females cater to female audiences. I think if anything, males like the notion of weak females. But for certain, no females like the notion of weak and stupid females. We all, every individual of the entire human race, want to be strong.

For the Belle issue, I vehemently disagree that she would have ended up with Gaston. That idea is laughable, hahahahaha. She hates that guy and she would put up a hell of a fight to not marry him. She would probably do it if her father's life was on the line, but otherwise, I don't see it happening. And she was rescued by the minions but really, any protagonist, male or female, will be rescued by minions when the plot calls for it. Simply put, you cannot equate her to Chi. Their personalities are completely different. You're really reaching there.

One thing that seems to be disconnected between these conversations is the fact that though audiences like it when the hero comes to save the day, we don't like it when the female lead is painted to this degree of subservience and helplessness. Do you know what I mean?

They are just overdoing it at this point. Perhaps it is being done for the potential payoff. Who knows.

My point with the titles you mentioned were that they were American and long since expired. You don't really have an Asian female character counterpart that's consistently popular and still has her body.

Belle's father's life was on the line. He was about to be institutionalized and the whole town was in on it. That was the setup to get her to marry Gaston. That's one of the reasons why the town was manipulated by Gaston to attack the castle. The Beast was in the way. You really need to watch that title again.

And Chizuru is not capable culturally or technique wise to become a talented swordswoman. It's the wrong genre. This is a reverse harem fantasy not a seinen action fantasy. Any technique improvement in Chizuru will prob be linked to her getting closer to Hiji relationship wise I'm betting.

I'm assuming that her level of behaviour is the norm for the time period. She doesn't have that much of a status. She's living with a group of guys. She's lucky that none of them have tried anything or sold her off to slavery/prostitution. I think she has a good deal going there. Free board, food in exchange for doing the laundry and oocasionally cooking. She may even get a husband out of the deal.

[OkamiNoKaze]

Finally started in on Season 2, the new uniforms are rather sharp looking, though I kind of expected it sooner considering some promo art I had seen for the first season, I was surprised seeing Chizuru in uniform, she looks cool though. Saito is looking more like his later Kenshin self.

I've also recently started watching Gintma so the contrast, is even more hilarious

[Mairsile]

Originally Posted by MikaMiaka

I had brought this notion up earlier; perhaps it's the time period of the show and women did act that way (thereby remaining historically accurate?), or perhaps it is a Japanese cultural thing.

I think if anything, males like the notion of weak females. But for certain, no females like the notion of weak and stupid females. We all, every individual of the entire human race, want to be strong.

Personally, I do not like weak women - I prefer strong, athletic ones. Likewise, I am not fond of how many male supportive characters are utter weaklings compared to their female counterparts. I have no problem with females being physically stronger, or more adept at combat, (since many of my favorite series feature such strong female leads) but the stereotypical wuss is rather discouraging.

Moving along. Prior to the bushi (samurai) era, it was common for women to be trained in combat in Japan and made excellent warriors. However, during the time of the samurai, women were pretty much relegated to domestic duties and did not see war often. With that in mind, if we were to acknowledge the historical framework of Hakuouki as a basis for its character design, then its understandable that Chizuru would - at least from the beginning - be represented as such.

Regarding the Japanese culture, you may notice something about how strong, fit women are drawn by the majority of anime/manga artists. Compare the bodies of many fit female characters to non-active ones and you'll see there isn't any difference. There are very few physically strong female characters who are given "athletic" physiques. In Japan, it is not a widespread belief that a woman can be physically strong and beautiful. Watch women's professional wrestling - which is very popular - and this stereotype is quite apparent: the more feminine-looking girls are adorned in very girlie attire and always play the good side whereas the more strong/fit women wear androgynous clothing and represent the bad side.

Your last comment - "we all want to be strong" - is a testament to how popular the female archetype, the tsundere, is among the general anime audience. Just check out character contest polls and you'll notice that many well-known, strong tsunderes make the list.

[PreSage]

To the comments about Chizuru and how she's portrayed. If the show wants to be historically accurate, then how does that explain the female "ninja"? But that aside, it is not that Chizuru needs to pick up a sword and actually fight on par with Hijikata; she needs to be more capable in situations that I would expect she has some power to act on (or at least attempt to act on - like dodging or running away and not just stand there and gawk in fear). For example, in the early part of the first season, when she ran rashly into a battle and was almost killed on the stairs to only be saved by Saito - she could have at least instinctively pulled out her sword to defend that attack, whether it will be useless or not, she should have at least acted instead of standing there wide-eyed like a dear caught in a headlight. Also, by carrying that sword around, I would assume that she knows some fighting skills, enough to defend herself a little, otherwise, don't carry that sword around because others would probably have the same assumption. In other words, if you carry a sword, you better know how to use it - at whatever level.

I don't dislike Chizuru but to put forth an argument about her, that's how I see it.

[Lilith]

Thanks for moving the thread!

I join you in complaining about Chizuru. I think it's the shoujo formula, just like the shonen formula includes the boobsy idol girl. :rolleye:

It's hard to concetrate on the bishies and ship a couple when you dislike the main girl. So, I think of pairing them as yaoi couples instead. XD

[Mairsile]

Originally Posted by PreSage

To the comments about Chizuru and how she's portrayed. If the show wants to be historically accurate, then how does that explain the female "ninja"?

I don't dislike Chizuru but to put forth an argument about her, that's how I see it.

Espionage has always been a tactic in war. From a historical perspective, female ninjas (Kunoichi) were often sent on spy or assassination missions. They could easily pose as a dancer, prostitute or servant without drawing attention of the castle guard. Since Shinobi believed in winning by any means necessary, women were often trained and selected to perform specific objectives that could more easily be accomplished using a female infiltrator.

For an interesting, yet short read on the origin and use of Kunoichi, check out this PDF:

http://www.saskninjutsu.com/jom/inde...do_pdf=1&id=20

I do agree with you considering she underwent some training and was even complimented by drawing out her sword properly early in season 1 during her duel. The Oni will pursue her to no end. Because of this I would like to see her participate in training with her male compatriots so she could better defend herself when she absolutely must.

[Haladflire65]

Spoiler for episode 15:

Sooo..... Shinpachi and Sanosuke left.... wonderful.... every time Chizuru gets emotional we get cheesy montages and huge sparkly eyes >.< And also lovely, her brother's dead? Things are happening so fast O.o

Okita seems to be totally useless when not in his rasetsu form now...

Next episode looks interesting. Kondou's death seems to be coming close, Toshi's rasetsu form (), Saito chopping off someone's arm.... I'm looking forward to it

[OkamiNoKaze]

Episode 14 was very well done. They sure got themselves stuck in a thorny situation though, I really like the opening song for this season. The full version is available in the usual places.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Mairsile

I do agree with you considering she underwent some training and was even complimented by drawing out her sword properly early in season 1 during her duel. The Oni will pursue her to no end. Because of this I would like to see her participate in training with her male compatriots so she could better defend herself when she absolutely must.

She should be using a gun then...

Originally Posted by Haladflire65

Spoiler for episode 15:

Sooo..... Shinpachi and Sanosuke left.... wonderful.... every time Chizuru gets emotional we get cheesy montages and huge sparkly eyes >.< And also lovely, her brother's dead? Things are happening so fast O.o

Spoiler:

Nooooo! I wanted to see more of him. I liked his trap form.

[PreSage]

ep. 14 - Hmm, I think Hijikata puts his trust in Kondo-san too much. He should stand stronger with his belief than follow blindly to what he clearly knows is a futile battle. As vice commander, he also has a responsibility to the men who serve under him.

[orion]

Originally Posted by PreSage

ep. 14 - Hmm, I think Hijikata puts his trust in Kondo-san too much. He should stand stronger with his belief than follow blindly to what he clearly knows is a futile battle. As vice commander, he also has a responsibility to the men who serve under him.

But Kondo should have recognized a futile battle when he saw it. Disobeying the commanding officer isn't good for troop morale either. 1/2 their men deserted before the battle started. If there was a disagreement in the upper ranks, the other 1/2 would have also left.

And sometimes winning may not be the objective of the battle.

[PreSage]

Originally Posted by orion

But Kondo should have recognized a futile battle when he saw it. Disobeying the commanding officer isn't good for troop morale either. 1/2 their men deserted before the battle started. If there was a disagreement in the upper ranks, the other 1/2 would have also left.

And sometimes winning may not be the objective of the battle.

True that squabbles among the upper ranks are bad, but Hijikata could have put in a word or two, or he can manipulate the situation in such a way that may save the men. Considering how much Kondo trusts Hijikata, Hijikata may have a better chance to persuade Kondo, if not to retreat then to possibly "reposition". On second thought, Hijikata may have just done that by suggesting to get reinforcements - of course, this depends on whether there are reinforcements. That was a subtle move on Hijikata's part that I missed until now.

I disagree with you on the second point. Winning is always the objective of any battle, whether to gain a strategic position to win the war or to gain absolute victory itself. If the battle does not gain you anything with the war, it is probably a battle not worth fighting. One does not fight simply to die, and to say that one fights for honor and pride is foolhardy.

[plzd0ntkeelme]

lol Majority of the weak female anime characters come from shoujo anime. So if you want strong female characters, watch shonen shows for a change. Just look at the female characters in Naruto or Bleach, majority of them are depicted as strong and powerful. Many can also be found in seinen shows. Of course moeblob shows are popular too but they're for otaku who's actually a minority in Japan.

Iin life-action department, I can think of the Ayumi series. And if you like gore movies, pretty much any shows like Tokyo Gore Police, Robo Geisha have strong female leads. And these are targeted toward guys.

Anyways, As for ep 2, I like this kind of tragic battle. None of that raise your kiai to win against impossible odds.

[Joojoobees]

I think Kondou's charge was stupid, but it got me thinking, and this wasn't that different from the situation at Ikedaya. There Hijikata and most of the men were at another location, and Kondou was urged to wait, but he decided to charge in anyways. In that case, there were no guns, and the tight spaces inside the building meant you really didn't have to worry about more than one opponent at a time.

The battle this time was a terrible mis-match for a "strategy" he had used successfully in the past.

[MeoTwister5]

Episode 14 makes it very apparent how much better the animation for the second season is better than the first IMHO. Nice artowrk on their hair actually.

Personally, Kondou's becoming less of a commander and more of a Westernized politician, now that his attempts to "please" the shogunate seems to be clouding his judgment and putting his own men in jeopardy, which is ironic considering his desire to stick to the old ways against the onslaught of modern warfare.

Also the bald guy Koudou, did he appear already before?

[Haak]

Originally Posted by plzd0ntkeelme

So if you want strong female characters, watch shonen shows for a change. Just look at the female characters in Naruto or Bleach, majority of them are depicted as strong and powerful.

Hurr, hurr, hur, Shonen is definitely NOT the place I would go...

I have to admit, the last episode was very nice. This is already looking way better than season 1.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Haak

Hurr, hurr, hur, Shonen is definitely NOT the place I would go...

I have to admit, the last episode was very nice. This is already looking way better than season 1.

Yep. I'd suggest a subcategory of seinen. But then you'd have to put up with the fanservice attached to those females. (Black Lagoon, Highschool of the Dead...)

Originally Posted by MeoTwister5

Also the bald guy Koudou, did he appear already before?

Isn't he the guy everybody was looking for in Season 1?

[Joojoobees]

Originally Posted by orion

(Kondou) Isn't he the guy everybody was looking for in Season 1?

Yep, Chizuru's dad.