Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Dextro

If what they want to do is adapt subpar light novels that didn't even manage to win the prizes that KyoAni itself is awarding then I'm not particularly interested in buying. If they want to go and get Gatou to do series composition for them on a high quality work like they did with Hyouka then by all means, I'll buy that in a heartbeat.

I agree, it's a bit surprising that for all their focus on making a quality product, plot and writing are overlooked.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ultimate_noob

Now that is disappointing. They should listen to what their customers say. It is not like everyone will eat their products automatically.

Until now, the end-viewer wasn't actually "their customer" to any large degree. Their customer was TBS or Kadokawa or whoever was funding the show, and whatever value Kyoto Animation added to the franchise would benefit those rightsholders the most. Now, though, they are in the business of directly serving end-customers by managing their own properties and their own media-mix strategy. So this actually allows them to build a customer base that is truly theirs. Of course this means they won't get to pull from the best-of-the-best of Kadokawa's deep pool of known hits, and their new products may not appeal to everyone. Whatever audience they build in the end may not share the same demographics as the audiences that TBS and Kadokawa were targeting in the past, so it's possible even probable that some former "Kyoto Animation fans" will be left behind. It's basically the price to be paid for forging out on your own, though.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Bri

I agree, it's a bit surprising that for all their focus on making a quality product, plot and writing are overlooked.

They never had to worry a lot about it until recently.

A lot of their past work was hit LNs (Haruhi) and hit VNs (the Key trio). So they were arguably taking the cream of the crop from other mediums, so most of the good writing was already in place.

But now they're doing more in-house projects, much of which is based off of the writing of relative amateurs.

KyoAni is unaccustomed to having to worry about writing quality, and so they used to focus almost strictly on visual quality, which once served them well. So they are being faced with some likely adjustments here. They might want to give more thought to hiring/contracting some good anime writers.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

They might want to give more thought to hiring/contracting some good anime writers.

I don't know... if you look at the lead writers for their most recent shows, it's not like these are n00bs or people with no experience writing anime, and even popular anime.

Kanata no Kyoukai and Chuunibyou: Jukki Hanada (also worked on Sola, Steins;Gate, original Rozen Maiden series, Love Live, Kashimashi, scripts on K-On s2, and many others)

Free: Masahiro Yokotani (also worked on Hataraku Maou-sama, Maria Holic, Keroro Gunsou, scripts on K-On s2 and many others)

Tamako Market: Reiko Yoshida (also worked on K-On, Girls und Panzer, Scrapped Princess, Maria-sama, and many others)

Even many of the people who were involved in writing for Hyouka (Gotoh notwithstanding) are still involves in various capacities in all these new shows.

So it's not like they've replaced all the "good" writers with hacks or something. They're all veterans who've worked with KyoAni and others on scripts for a variety of anime. So if you go to them like "you need to hire better writers", it's not like they're not picking from the good pool or something. But every show has its own style and approach driven by its director and the strengths of the source material, so "poor writing" may not actually be a fully-accurate description of the root cause of people not liking the show.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Kanata no Kyoukai and Chuunibyou: Jukki Hanada (also worked on Sola, Steins;Gate, original Rozen Maiden series, Love Live, Kashimashi, scripts on K-On s2, and many others)

Free: Masahiro Yokotani (also worked on Hataraku Maou-sama, Maria Holic, Keroro Gunsou, scripts on K-On s2 and many others)

Tamako Market: Reiko Yoshida (also worked on K-On, Girls und Panzer, Scrapped Princess, Maria-sama, and many others)

Even many of the people who were involved in writing for Hyouka (Gotoh notwithstanding) are still involves in various capacities in all these new shows.

I'm not familiar with all of the shows you listed in parenthesis, but I am familiar with most of them, and I don't see many anime originals out of what I recognize.

Being able to take an existing narrative in a different medium, and make some changes to it so that it works well as an anime narrative, is a valuable talent, to be sure. But such writers are obviously limited by the quality of the source material that they're working with, which I feel is the main "writing issue" here. And in any event, this talent is a pretty different one from writing something new of your own conception, of course.

Basically, my suggestion would be this - Instead of making anime out of "Honorable Mention" stories received in a writing contest, hire anime original writers to write full-fledged anime originals. One or more of the writers you mentioned might be quite capable of that, I don't know. But even if they are, it's different from being able to take somebody else's work and turning it into a good anime.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Then you have no say in the matter, do you?

Did I say I did?

As I said before, I'd rather Kyoani be a contract studio for Kadokawa because I like those works far more than their in house light novel content which I find extremely poor.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by all_flying

On a side note, no. Just look at Tamako. Naoko Yamada is by no means a bad director, but just what exactly they (with Reiko Yoshida) were trying to do? Were they trying to make another keion?

They were trying to express the qualities of the market and all the people within it. I think that they went about that in all the wrong ways and so the message didn't come across very well.

Originally Posted by Bri

I agree, it's a bit surprising that for all their focus on making a quality product, plot and writing are overlooked.

Those aren't the primary concerns of Kyoto Animation - right now, it's controlling their own properties.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

They never had to worry a lot about it until recently.

A lot of their past work was hit LNs (Haruhi) and hit VNs (the Key trio). So they were arguably taking the cream of the crop from other mediums, so most of the good writing was already in place.

But now they're doing more in-house projects, much of which is based off of the writing of relative amateurs.

KyoAni is unaccustomed to having to worry about writing quality, and so they used to focus almost strictly on visual quality, which once served them well. So they are being faced with some likely adjustments here. They might want to give more thought to hiring/contracting some good anime writers.

Writing in anime is pretty hit and miss as is. There certainly aren't a whole lot out there who have solid records. And really, the writers used by Kyoto Animation have had decent resumes. Of their recent shows, I've only watched Tamako Market, and the weaknesses of that show lay in poor conceptualization; not in the writing.

I'm also not entirely convinced that the quality of the source material is all that important unless the anime staff decide to adhere to it slavishly.

[ultimate_noob]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Of their recent shows, I've only watched Tamako Market, and the weaknesses of that show lay in poor conceptualization; not in the writing.

I agree. I was a bit happy when they said on the recent kyoani event that they're doing a "power-up" on tamako market for the new movie/second season whatever format they're going to do with it. I guess they did saw the shortcomings of that show and decided to garnish it a bit to unleash its full potential.

What is even more impressive is how they convinced the other members of the production committee of that show to help them invest again considering the lackluster sales. Or maybe they've formed a new committee which remains to be seen. I wouldn't be surprised either if kyoani will go all-in on this one.

Either way it's all good efforts.

[all_flying]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

They were trying to express the qualities of the market and all the people within it. I think that they went about that in all the wrong ways and so the message didn't come across very well.

It did rubs me in the wrong way.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

As I said before, I'd rather Kyoani be a contract studio for Kadokawa because I like those works far more than their in house light novel content which I find extremely poor.

Extremely poor? Really? Well, that's subjective but looking at how Chuu2 and Free! sales, certainly a lot of people are thinking otherwise.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Did I say I did?

As I said before, I'd rather Kyoani be a contract studio for Kadokawa because I like those works far more than their in house light novel content which I find extremely poor.

I feel like you're turning a blind eye to what some of KyoAni's Kadokawa projects actually consisted of. Endless Eight - in my opinion, the uncontested winner of the award for "worst KyoAni production ever" - happened under Kadokawa's watch. As did Lucky Star and Nichijou, which while not exactly stuff I disliked, are things I'm probably inclined to rank below KyoAni's in house LNs in terms of interest level.

Basically, since 2008, the really good Kadokawa/KyoAni collaborations were Disappearance and Hyouka. So one movie from a franchise Kadokawa doesn't seem that interested in promoting anymore and a project that draws on Kadokawa's backcatalog in a way that I'm not convinced would be the norm for such a partnership.

I'm also not really convinced that what we've seen so far of KyoAni's in house focus is necessarily indicative of where the they plan to take it. Among other things, I expect they're being pretty cautious given how much of their own money is on the line. That may change if and when they build up a cash stockpile. Second, I do think that they're going to eventually start to diversify their source material sources a bit. I don't see the way they've been adapting their catalog in 2012/2013 as particularly sustainable, and I don't think they can make their light novel label attractive enough to authors compared to the big publishers just by holding up the possibility of getting an anime adaptation easily (which is part of the reason why I don't think its sustainable). I'm quite certain that Kyoto is evaluating KnK's poor reception as hard as we are.

[ultimate_noob]

Originally Posted by all_flying

Extremely poor? Really? Well, that's subjective but looking at how Chuu2 and Free! sales, certainly a lot of people are thinking otherwise.

It doesn't mean some people will a find a show great just because it sells a lot of DVD lol. It is a matter of personal taste and not on buying DVDs. Some people find monogatari series or madoka poor and uninteresting despite the good sales.

You can't just judge a show by its DVD sales. There are lots of factors that should be taken into account.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Basically, my suggestion would be this - Instead of making anime out of "Honorable Mention" stories received in a writing contest, hire anime original writers to write full-fledged anime originals. One or more of the writers you mentioned might be quite capable of that, I don't know. But even if they are, it's different from being able to take somebody else's work and turning it into a good anime.

Well, Tamako Market was an anime-original project, and most of their other projects have been very liberally adapted and almost changed entirely from the original source material. You could almost see the books and LN imprint as just ensuring they have complete rights to the base IP so they can market it in multiple ways (novels, manga, anime, drama CDs, merchandise, who knows...). I'm not sure that it really is all that different from being "anime-original" at the end of the day, and anime original properties are always hit-and-miss.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I don't see the way they've been adapting their catalog in 2012/2013 as particularly sustainable, and I don't think they can make their light novel label attractive enough to authors compared to the big publishers just by holding up the possibility of getting an anime adaptation easily (which is part of the reason why I don't think its sustainable). I'm quite certain that Kyoto is evaluating KnK's poor reception as hard as we are.

For the reason above, I'm not really sure it makes such a huge difference to them as long as they keep the majority of the profits from all the various facets of the media mix. And if you take all four of their recent projects on the composite, their batting average in terms of hits is still pretty good, with shows like Free and Chuunibyou potentially making up for some of the lesser-performers. And heck, as Kadokowa anime demonstrates, sometimes even a show with a poorly-received anime ends up seeing a sizeable-enough boost in novel sales to make a sequel worthwhile. So, we don't have all the data, but it seems to me like this should be at least as sustainable if not more so than their old business model as long as they keep playing it relatively safe.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by all_flying

Extremely poor? Really? Well, that's subjective but looking at how Chuu2 and Free! sales, certainly a lot of people are thinking otherwise.

I don't share those people's tastes to say the least.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I feel like you're turning a blind eye to what some of KyoAni's Kadokawa projects actually consisted of. Endless Eight - in my opinion, the uncontested winner of the award for "worst KyoAni production ever" - happened under Kadokawa's watch. As did Lucky Star and Nichijou, which while not exactly stuff I disliked, are things I'm probably inclined to rank below KyoAni's in house LNs in terms of interest level.

Well to be clear here, I don't think Kyoani under Kadokawa has been spectacular necessarily, but besides any of their KEY works, all of kyoani's best titles are from Kadokawa IMO. I haven't liked a single title from any other producer for kyoani since clannad AS.

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I'm also not really convinced that what we've seen so far of KyoAni's in house focus is necessarily indicative of where the they plan to take it. Among other things, I expect they're being pretty cautious given how much of their own money is on the line. That may change if and when they build up a cash stockpile. Second, I do think that they're going to eventually start to diversify their source material sources a bit. I don't see the way they've been adapting their catalog in 2012/2013 as particularly sustainable, and I don't think they can make their light novel label attractive enough to authors compared to the big publishers just by holding up the possibility of getting an anime adaptation easily (which is part of the reason why I don't think its sustainable). I'm quite certain that Kyoto is evaluating KnK's poor reception as hard as we are.

I didn't have much faith in them to begin with on this stunt, but Tamako Market, chuunibyou, Free, and KnK... That's more than 3 strikes for me and I don't see anything good coming out of this production model as is. Especially when they let writers make fanfiction episodes about their own show like KnK, then I have little reason to believe they're taking this seriously whatsoever.

[all_flying]

Originally Posted by ultimate_noob

It doesn't mean some people will a find a show great just because it sells a lot of DVD lol. It is a matter of personal taste and not on buying DVDs. Some people find monogatari series or madoka poor and uninteresting despite the good sales.

You can't just judge a show by its DVD sales. There are lots of factors that should be taken into account.

Such as?

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Well, Tamako Market was an anime-original project, and most of their other projects have been very liberally adapted and almost changed entirely from the original source material. You could almost see the books and LN imprint as just ensuring they have complete rights to the base IP so they can market it in multiple ways (novels, manga, anime, drama CDs, merchandise, who knows...). I'm not sure that it really is all that different from being "anime-original" at the end of the day, and anime original properties are always hit-and-miss.



For the reason above, I'm not really sure it makes such a huge difference to them as long as they keep the majority of the profits from all the various facets of the media mix. And if you take all four of their recent projects on the composite, their batting average in terms of hits is still pretty good, with shows like Free and Chuunibyou potentially making up for some of the lesser-performers. And heck, as Kadokowa anime demonstrates, sometimes even a show with a poorly-received anime ends up seeing a sizeable-enough boost in novel sales to make a sequel worthwhile. So, we don't have all the data, but it seems to me like this should be at least as sustainable if not more so than their old business model as long as they keep playing it relatively safe.

It wasn't just about the money

[ultimate_noob]

Originally Posted by all_flying

Such as?

Profits, quality, lasting power, your personal opinion....there are lots of them.

If you're a DVD sales nerd then sure let's say something like Free is a good show. But if you're one of those people that aren't into sports shows or guy-centric shows, then Free is a not a good one.

In the end those two people are both wrong in their own ways because they're judging a show whether it is good or not based on one factor alone.

[all_flying]

Originally Posted by ultimate_noob

Profits, quality, lasting power, your personal opinion....there are lots of them.

If you're a DVD sales nerd then sure let's say something like Free is a good show. But if you're one of those people that aren't into sports shows or guy-centric shows, then Free is a not a good one.

In the end those two people are both wrong in their own ways because they're judging a show whether it is good or not based on one factor alone.

What we're talking, again?

[Westlo]

If KyoAni want to play the profits game by owning IPs they should just contract Gatoh to write/concept an original show for them, chances are it will be better than anything they've turfed out recently.

Originally Posted by ultimate_noob

If you're a DVD sales nerd then sure let's say something like Free is a good show.

lol, why would Free be a good show to anyone who follows sales. Just because it sold well doesn't mean you have to like it lol.

[Pocari_Sweat]

It's been mentioned many times before but sales =/= quality. Sales has a correlation with popularity sure, but not quality. Sometimes it's even inversely related.

If sales = quality, then well recently well selling series like Sword Art Online, OreImo or Infinite Stratos will be considered great shows... which they are far from that. I know that personally I would watch at the very least would watch almost any Kyoani series over those three, so they are doing something right. Unfortunately, Kyoani series are often no better than "alright" or "mediocre".

The problem with Free is simple. It focused way too much on trying to pander to a female audience and its character came out as flat cardboard cutouts representing different archtypes designed to appeal to fans of certain tropes. The visuals were great, the music was fitting and even the story was sufficient. But oh boy were the characters terrible, and sports series often double up as character dramas, and Free sucked on that front. Kyoani has a tendency of reusing the same type of jokes, gags and character traits in every one of their series, only differing in intensity, and it completely backfired in Kyoukai no Kanata, which essentially feels like Shakugan no Shana but with accentuated moeblobs and goofiness.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I feel like you're turning a blind eye to what some of KyoAni's Kadokawa projects actually consisted of. Endless Eight - in my opinion, the uncontested winner of the award for "worst KyoAni production ever" - happened under Kadokawa's watch. As did Lucky Star and Nichijou, which while not exactly stuff I disliked, are things I'm probably inclined to rank below KyoAni's in house LNs in terms of interest level.

Well, in terms of personal enjoyment I pretty much agree with Reckoner. And I'm not actually turning a blind eye to "Endless Eight", for example. I marathoned that (yes, you read that right). It's something I always wanted to see, actually, so I was very interested. What went wrong here is, IMO, the distribution model. As much as I wanted to see something like this, I'd have been seriously pissed if I had followed it as a current show. A weekly show is just not the distribution model for an experiment like this.

I never got into Lucky Star, but - with the excaption of the slapstick and violent jokes - I actually enjoyed Nichijou. In fact, when I look at all the shows that made KyoAni interesting to me, I find that with one exception (Clannad & After Story), have one thing in common: Kodakawa on the production committee.

I dropped K-On, because it bored me. Neo KyoAni seems to take its cue from K-On. Oddly enough, the one show that didn't annoy me all that much is the one that everyone in here seems to rag on: Tamako Market. I moderately enjoyed this one. (I dorpped Free; I wish I had dropped Chuunibyou; and I'm barely hanging onto Kyoukai no Kanata.)

Taste is taste, and there's something in this new KyoAni that rubs me the wrong way. I wish them well, but KyoAni is no longer a studio I watch out for.

I'm quite certain that Kyoto is evaluating KnK's poor reception as hard as we are.

As well as the good reception of Chuunibyou. I just can't see KyoAni go in a direction I like in the foreseeable future.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Pocari_Sweat

It's been mentioned many times before but sales =/= quality. Sales has a correlation with popularity sure, but not quality. Sometimes it's even inversely related.

If sales = quality, then well recently well selling series like Sword Art Online, OreImo or Infinite Stratos will be considered great shows... which they are far from that. I know that personally I would watch at the very least would watch almost any Kyoani series over those three, so they are doing something right. Unfortunately, Kyoani series are often no better than "alright" or "mediocre".

The problem with Free is simple. It focused way too much on trying to pander to a female audience and its character came out as flat cardboard cutouts representing different archtypes designed to appeal to fans of certain tropes. The visuals were great, the music was fitting and even the story was sufficient. But oh boy were the characters terrible, and sports series often double up as character dramas, and Free sucked on that front. Kyoani has a tendency of reusing the same type of jokes, gags and character traits in every one of their series, only differing in intensity, and it completely backfired in Kyoukai no Kanata, which essentially feels like Shakugan no Shana but with accentuated moeblobs and goofiness.

I think pointing out this relationship between quality and popularity is just useless. It also propagates this myth that more often than not quality and popularity are diametrically opposite, which is harmful to healthy discussion of any show's merit. They aren't. People will like what they like and buy what they'll buy. I liked Free! (not nearly enough to buy it, then again I haven't bought anime in ages) because it had this weird "Key-like" vibe to it, but also because it focused on one of the rare few dilemmas young boys have to go through in puberty. It wasn't exactly deep or whatever, but I found myself in that show. I'm not a female either. So the whole demographics and popularity notion flies out the window if you consider someone like me.

So please let's not go down that road. I like the idea of KyoAni making their own stuff, but I have to like it. That's baseline requirement if they want me to watch their shows, they won't garner any sympathy from me just because they're branching out on their own.