[Manga] Chapter 293 Discussion

[Tettsuo]

Originally Posted by Zek

...Furthermore, I'll keep saying it until it comes true, Naruto needs to take responsibility for his actions. He's killing himself and almost killing his teammates with his growing reliance on Kyuubi, and the countdown just keeps ticking until he really hurts someone. What he's doing now is no better than Sasuke exploiting the cursed seal; hell, this is way worse than CSL2.

I'm not sure if Naruto actually has much control over his transformations. In fact, it appears that Naruto has zero control of it. For instance, after he found out that he missed Debiera (sp?), his anger and frustration seemed to start the transformation. It wasn't like he concentrated and forced the transformation to occur.

I really think this is a side effect of him growing more attached to Kyuubi as time goes on, and him being more capable of harnessing more Kyuubi chakra.

[ILikeSquiReLz]

I think personally it would be interesting if Naruto has a battle within with Kyubi for control. Let say Kyubi takes control from time to time in the midst of things Naruto tries to battle him within him self ala Tsukyumi style world where Naruto and Kyubi kills each other for control of his body. I really don't think Kyubi should per say be able to completly purge himself of Naruto's body. I feel this would be a more interesting plot twist than a completly broken seal.

[Sethi]

The manga truly seems to be heading the path where sooner or later there will be a inner Battle between Kyuubi and Naruto, and honestly i would prefer so than from Kyuubi to break free or being extracted from Naruto, although i really didn't want this to be the case but let's face it at this point of the manga if we take Kyuubi out of Naruto, Naruto is nothing more than a crappy little genin, he acts rash, he has little techniques, furthermore he will be unable to use some of them as he has been using them now, and others like Summoning he won't be able to use at all, is only good qualities is the attitude to never to give up and some strategies he comes up from time to time.
One other thing is that i truly believe this time skip was incredible bad for Naruto, every other character we seen seems to have had a significant boost of power, even Kakashi who was already Jounin was able to develop Mangekyou, yet all we seen from Naruto is the same old abilities which he used nicely against Kakashi but from then on out he always went Kyuubi like. I truly hoped for Jiraiya to have tought him some more long range jutsus seeing as Naruto already has Kage Bunshin and Rasengan which are techniques to give a edge on close range and because if we think logically Naruto now is a Close combat type however with his almost unlimited Chakra, Jiraiya could have thought him a number of Long Range attacks for him to use and he would waste almost no chakra from using them.

[DetriusXii]

Perhaps Oro is taunting Naruto not because he wants to fight a primitive beast, but because he wants to inform Kyuubi of Akatsuki's motives? Maybe the demons don't like being part of the demon god either.

[ILikeSquiReLz]

Originally Posted by Sethi

The manga truly seems to be heading the path where sooner or later there will be a inner Battle between Kyuubi and Naruto, and honestly i would prefer so than from Kyuubi to break free or being extracted from Naruto, although i really didn't want this to be the case but let's face it at this point of the manga if we take Kyuubi out of Naruto, Naruto is nothing more than a crappy little genin, he acts rash, he has little techniques, furthermore he will be unable to use some of them as he has been using them now, and others like Summoning he won't be able to use at all, is only good qualities is the attitude to never to give up and some strategies he comes up from time to time.
One other thing is that i truly believe this time skip was incredible bad for Naruto, every other character we seen seems to have had a significant boost of power, even Kakashi who was already Jounin was able to develop Mangekyou, yet all we seen from Naruto is the same old abilities which he used nicely against Kakashi but from then on out he always went Kyuubi like. I truly hoped for Jiraiya to have tought him some more long range jutsus seeing as Naruto already has Kage Bunshin and Rasengan which are techniques to give a edge on close range and because if we think logically Naruto now is a Close combat type however with his almost unlimited Chakra, Jiraiya could have thought him a number of Long Range attacks for him to use and he would waste almost no chakra from using them.

Well it's till fairly hard to judge Naruto at this point. It's true that he hasn't done much aside from obsulute burst of energy ala Kyubi. He hasn't really had any opportunities to do so. I mean the people he has seriously faced lately are at a high level and just like the Sharingan, when you are fighting powerful people you use your best weapons and Naruto's best off course, Kyubi. So I feel there is still time before we can judge him. I do agree though, that any jutsu he may use at his current state would be madly amplified, and to think out loud AMAZING. And I would love to see him use some at this point much like everyone else. But lets face it, someone as powerfull as Orochimaru this style may be his best chance to project any "good" damage. Nin jutsu seals seems to me as something that can be predicted, as a few Nins in past episode seems to suggest, by looking at what type os seals are made with the hand, I'm sure Oro is insanely good at this. So pure energy may be the one thing you can't simply predict.

Example: I don't recall the exact episode and time or chapter and page, but as soon as Sasuke seen the sign of the tiger in a handseal and the order of the seals, he quickly came to the conclusion that it's a Katon Jutsu. but then Kakashi changed it to the thousand years of pain on Naruto, which is not really a nin jutsu.

Edit: A better Example would actually be Sandaime and Orochimaru: when Orochimaru began doing the seals for Kinjutsu, Edo Tensie: Impure summon, Sandaime knew exactly what it was going to be.

[Tettsuo]

Originally Posted by DetriusXii

Perhaps Oro is taunting Naruto not because he wants to fight a primitive beast, but because he wants to inform Kyuubi of Akatsuki's motives? Maybe the demons don't like being part of the demon god either.

This crossed my mind as well. The scene were Oro and Kyuubi are looking at one another seemed to suggest a relationship of sorts in the past between the 2.

[ILikeSquiReLz]

Originally Posted by Tettsuo

This crossed my mind as well. The scene were Oro and Kyuubi are looking at one another seemed to suggest a relationship of sorts in the past between the 2.

Possibly- This had crossed my mind in the past as well. Maybe Orochimaru released Kyubi to wreck Konoha at the time cause he couldn't do it with, Sandaime and Yondaime both being there at the time. Or just cause he likes things when they are moving.

[Zek]

You know, now that I think about it, at the start of the timeskip Gaara had matured so much more than Naruto has. He was living as a Jinchuuriki, but instead of exploiting his transformation, he realized the responsibility of his position as Kazekage and contained Shukaku, controlling its power instead of letting it control him. Naruto is the opposite: his Kyuubi transformations are just as dangerous to his friends as Gaara's Shukaku form, but Naruto is oblivious to this and is completely incapable of controlling his emotions. I wouldn't be surprised to see him go 4-tails right smack in the middle of Konoha if Akatsuki came after him. He needs to make the same realization as Gaara; that his Jinchuuriki powers come with a great responsibility and he needs to keep them in check for the sake of his friends, even if it costs him personally.

[Rachy]

You know, now that I think about it, at the start of the timeskip Gaara had matured so much more than Naruto has. He was living as a Jinchuuriki, but instead of exploiting his transformation, he realized the responsibility of his position as Kazekage and contained Shukaku, controlling its power instead of letting it control him. Naruto is the opposite: his Kyuubi transformations are just as dangerous to his friends as Gaara's Shukaku form, but Naruto is oblivious to this and is completely incapable of controlling his emotions. I wouldn't be surprised to see him go 4-tails right smack in the middle of Konoha if Akatsuki came after him. He needs to make the same realization as Gaara; that his Jinchuuriki powers come with a great responsibility and he needs to keep them in check for the sake of his friends, even if it costs him personally.

you cant say that the situation is much different.

Its not like if naruto doesnt go all out, they'll get anywhere closer to sasuke.

[Illuyankas]

@Zek - Well, Naruto hasn't had a past of consistent mass murder, or ever REALLY lost control, in a place to hurt his friends. Yet. So he lacks that trigger that Gaara has.

But still, I do like the sense of actual malignancy from Kyuubi now, the sense he is NOT just Naruto's gimmick but an real threat to him and everybody that just wasn't conveyed well enough before. Perhaps next week someone/s get/s the crap beaten out of them by Kabuto while Skinless Boy is off boogie-ing with Oro...

[Tettsuo]

I think Oro is gonna have a chat with Kyuubi next issue.

[nitteo]

I wonder how many dead frogs did it take to control mini-Kyubi? Jiraiya must've been summoning frogs to help him!

[vega98767]

Is anyone else as mad as I am that Kabuto got pwned by Kyubi chakra?

I was hoping for him to get in the fight but to just get smashed without anyone throwing a punch disappointed me.

And did Sai just abandon the team?

[MobiuS]

Kabuto isnt down-and-out really ... he still had that smug ass smile on his face. Theres something we dont know yet.

[ccardoso]

I think here people is making a big mistake: Kyuubi isn't a "primitive beast" like some people said. First of all Kyuubi can speak about complex concept so it doesn't say only "GRRRRRRR". Second of all we don't know what Kyuubi can do, what are its abilities. We know that:
a) it has an immense amount of chakra, so big that we can consider it infinite.
b) it's the master of illusion art (we have confirmed that in chapter 293), on a level probably much above the sharigan's tsukyomi. With mangekyou sharingan we saw Kakashi manipulating time and space sending Deidara's explosion into another dimension: this is certainly a badass technique, nothing to talk about I hope. Well to Kyuubi it's safely to assume that manipulating time and space it's child's play, so only by that we know Kyuubi isn't just a primitive beast, but a demon capable of doing very high level jutsu (at least kage level I think) with a smart mind.

Most of us think of Kyuubi as a "primitive beast" probably because we've seen it just as a power boost for Naruto to power up his techniques. Kyuubi isn't just a raw power source and we will find some of its abilities (on a very small scale anyway) in the next chapters I hope.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by ccardoso

I think here people is making a big mistake: Kyuubi isn't a "primitive beast" like some people said. First of all Kyuubi can speak about complex concept so it doesn't say only "GRRRRRRR". Second of all we don't know what Kyuubi can do, what are its abilities. We know that:
a) it has an immense amount of chakra, so big that we can consider it infinite.
b) it's the master of illusion art (we have confirmed that in chapter 293), on a level probably much above the sharigan's tsukyomi. With mangekyou sharingan we saw Kakashi manipulating time and space sending Deidara's explosion into another dimension: this is certainly a badass technique, nothing to talk about I hope. Well to Kyuubi it's safely to assume that manipulating time and space it's child's play, so only by that we know Kyuubi isn't just a primitive beast, but a demon capable of doing very high level jutsu (at least kage level I think) with a smart mind.

Most of us think of Kyuubi as a "primitive beast" probably because we've seen it just as a power boost for Naruto to power up his techniques. Kyuubi isn't just a raw power source and we will find some of its abilities (on a very small scale anyway) in the next chapters I hope.

Kyuubi is only one of the other demons who were all imprisoned by humans. Even if characters in Naruto say how invincible a demon is, the facts tell us different. The facts tell that Shukaku was imprisoned in some tea kettle, other 8 were also imprisoned somewhere for akatsuki to find them. And ninja villages tried to use demons as their tools.

And specifically about kyuubi we must consider that he was at his full power when a single ninja could imprison him, he was defeated in his full power. I know that some fanboys like Yellow Flash say that Yondaime was godlike, that's the reason. But I would rather say that Kyuubi's power is not godlike, it's huge, but like other demons it can be defeated by the genius of a single human.
Of course i think that Yondaime was the strongest ninja ever based on the fact he won against the strongest demon, but contrary to fanboys I think he was not some kind of god, just a genius ninja who could invent some jutsu which can defeat a demon. But in an actual battle between him and any hokage level ninja like Oro or Sandaime or even Itachi we cannot say for sure who would be the winner.

[ri0]

Only because he did defeat the strongest Youma doesn't necessarily mean he was the strongest Shinobi, Ero.

[vega98767]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Kyuubi is only one of the other demons who were all imprisoned by humans. Even if characters in Naruto say how invincible a demon is, the facts tell us different. The facts tell that Shukaku was imprisoned in some tea kettle, other 8 were also imprisoned somewhere for akatsuki to find them. And ninja villages tried to use demons as their tools.

And specifically about kyuubi we must consider that he was at his full power when a single ninja could imprison him, he was defeated in his full power. I know that some fanboys like Yellow Flash say that Yondaime was godlike, that's the reason. But I would rather say that Kyuubi's power is not godlike, it's huge, but like other demons it can be defeated by the genius of a single human.
Of course i think that Yondaime was the strongest ninja ever based on the fact he won against the strongest demon, but contrary to fanboys I think he was not some kind of god, just a genius ninja who could invent some jutsu which can defeat a demon. But in an actual battle between him and any hokage level ninja like Oro or Sandaime or even Itachi we cannot say for sure who would be the winner.

Tons of people died to imprison Kyubi though. Like Irukas parents, and Yondaime of course. Its not like he just walked up to Kyubi and giggled then sealed him up. Im sure it was the same way with Shukaku that alot of sand villagers died in order to seal him away.

Kyubi is definetly something to fear.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by ri0

Only because he did defeat the strongest Youma doesn't necessarily mean he was the strongest Shinobi, Ero.

As I said it's just my opinion nothing more. As I explained we can have different opinions based on the story, it's just a matter of taste. The only facts is that there is a so called hokage level which is far stronger level than any jounin and also clearly stronger than elite jounins.

But there is a way to defeat a stronger level in Naruto, but at the cost of one's own life:
- Yondaime's death god jutsu worked well against both Kyuubi and Oro (Sarutobi at that old age was not the same level as Oro)
- Chouji's red pill
- Gai's 8 gates

Originally Posted by vega98767

Tons of people died to imprison Kyubi though. Like Irukas parents, and Yondaime of course. Its not like he just walked up to Kyubi and giggled then sealed him up. Im sure it was the same way with Shukaku that alot of sand villagers died in order to seal him away.
Kyubi is definetly something to fear.

To me it seems that their effort was totally useless, they were just trying to hold it back before Yondaime arrives. We cannot even say that they used up some of Kyuubi's chakra so he was weaker than usual against Yondaime, it's hard to decrease a nearly infinite amount.
It seems that in every age there are some special ninja born, who can fight even with demons. However Kyuubi was the strongest so Yondaime was really great to succeed. Also the manga says something about "human sacrifice", it seems that to defeat a demon somebody has to sacrifice his life, it's easy for akatsuki when somebody already did it to imprison the demon. And now we also know that the 1st hokage was able to control demons.

However in the current fight it may be that the Oro vs Naruto fight will have Oro's chakra used and thus even if he is stronger than Sai and Yamato he will have to retreat. It will be kind of a plot device, like when Oro and Kabuto were saved against Tsunade because she ran out of chakra.

But to bring up a more interesting question:
It may be that Oro knows about the MS ability and how it's supposed to awaken. So can his sudden decision of wanting a Naruto vs Sasuke fight being driven by the secret goal to make Sasuke gain MS by killing Naruto ?

[gibits]

But to bring up a more interesting question:
It may be that Oro knows about the MS ability and how it's supposed to awaken. So can his sudden decision of wanting a Naruto vs Sasuke fight being driven by the secret goal to make Sasuke gain MS by killing Naruto ?

Wouldn't that just make Sasuke harder to take over? No matter how strong Sasuke has become he will never be able to beat Oro. I mean, Oro will never give Sasuke the tools to do that, it would just make life harder for him. Unless Sasuke was completely under Oro's control (like with the CS), then Sasuke could be "number on in da hood G" and Oro could care less.