To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 17 Discussion / Poll

[LazyHunter]

Noukan's death may have affected Aleister personally, but the scene still showed that Noukan had failed to break free of Aleister's plan/expectations, so of course Aleister continued with his plan. We already knew he's willing to leave behind one of his last few friends when he had that conversation with Heaven Canceller and gave him a chance to end his life support. He's already proven that he'll go forwards with his plan no matter what.

Fiamma was never actual competition against Aleister. He could have gotten closer to his state had he gone through things differently, but he made some pretty fundamental mistakes in his plan. I doubt that he could become a threat to Aleister now that he lost his right arm. I agree with you on Fiamma falling off the plot, he should have definitely been part of the boss rush as the prior big villain of the show, and his appearance in NT13 was very forced and ultimately pointless. Aiwass will likely show up towards the end when Aleister begins to put his plan into motion, Aleister likely put Aiwass in a tighter leash after he did stuff on his own in WWIII.

Magic gods were pretty clearly used for three things: keeping Othinus alive, reinforcing Aleister's status as the main big bad of the show and introducing the real next arc; the Worl Rejecter arc we've had since NT13/NT14. They weren't meant to be the next big thing, Kamachi simply knew that was what readers would expect (The usual "last season we fought one of these guys, now we have to fight more of them! And they're stronger!") and so played up their first appearance at the end of NT9 only to pull the rug later when Aleister and Kamisato took them out of the way.

While Kamisato showing up might have caught Aleister for surprise, he had enough time to figure out how to deal with them, basically pointing Yuiitsu at them. Reacting to a new enemy/faction like that is pretty basic stuff, nothing JUST AS PLANNED about that. And it's been implied that Kakeru's faction are just pawns since day one once we figured out that Laura wasn't talking about Touma. As for Yuiitsu's rampage, Aleister doesn't really care about the well-being of AC's citizens, and he appears to be using Yuiitsu to deal with the Kamisato faction, of course her going in a revenge rampage would be within his calculations since he intervened in the middle of her beginning it. He might also be expecting and hoping that Yuiitsu might surpass Noukan and do what he could not.

[Kuroageha]

And based on this book Aleister might have lied about Yuitsu being the new axis.

[mashingan]

Who would win if Kamisato (with his right hand intact) vs Aleister clashed?

[DragonXX]

Originally Posted by mashingan

Who would win if Kamisato (with his right hand intact) vs Aleister clashed?

Kamisato if Crowley had conflicting ideals Kamisato would have a chance of winning but if not Kamisato would be dead.

[shmaster]

On Fiamma, I was actually hoping something well be done to his right hand for a long time. Especially when Othinus arc just ended. I mean, Fiamma now knows what he did wrong. There are now manu opportunity that can undo his mistakes.
There were the time I was expecting him dig out the Kakine Brain after the Othinus arc, and with the help of Ollerus that he'll be able to extract something Horusian out of the Dark Matter and came up with a brand new right hand that can wield Holy Right in max potential. (oh, and don't get me started on Kakine, instead of making him the BEETLE, there are actually a lot more areas on Dark Matter we can explore).

As for Magic Gods, I am not talking about having them as new bosses, but rather a discussion of their phases. And hopefully that'll lead into the discussion of the Christian phases and the Christian Magic God. OT pretty much told us that Christian Phases is a big deal, and I was expecting further discussion into it. Then finally the Magic Gods, the real owner of all the phases that produced magic showed up... only to be shoved away like in two volumes.

As for Yuiitsu/Kamisato/Misaka, what I don't like was how the plot presented as some sort of a big deal, another important step in the grand deal of things. That even Aleister has to make his move carefully if he do not want things to get fucked up... and then again, in like two volumes and Aleister is like they are no longer important. I mean, Kamachi, seriously? This is not how you play with your readers.

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

And based on this book Aleister might have lied about Yuitsu being the new axis.

Depends on how far Yuiitsu has progressed in her plot of brainwashing humanity into nothing but Kihara.
I at least think she is successful in brainwashing the Kamiasato harem girls (if not, I think she at least succeeded in exposing their secret twistedness). And they might end up doing things Yuiitsu expects them to do in later volumes, without knowing themselves have been brainwashed.

[Inept Forum User]

Would it be OK to ask a few questions regarding some of the fragments, shmaster?

[LazyHunter]

Originally Posted by mashingan

Who would win if Kamisato (with his right hand intact) vs Aleister clashed?

Aleister would likely win. He might be a valid target to WR, but he only has to blindside Kakeru like he did with Fiamma and he would win even more easily, as WR does not have the automatic defense trait Holy Right has.

@shmaster
I think Kamachi simply doesn't know what to do with him or Ollerus/Silvia after Othinus arc was done. His scene in NT13 doesn't add anything. We already knew the nerfed magic gods were still very dangerous, it doesn't matter if they can defeat Fiamma when the closest ally Touma had was Mikoto, who had already failed to do anything more than amuse High Priest.

OT had Aleister directly tell Fiamma that Christianity was limited and that its time was basically over. Phases were discussed in NT9, but the Magic Gods were never said to be responsible or the owners of the religious Phases. As for Heaven/Hell, it might be talked about when Aleister launches his plan if he really wants something like an artificial Heaven. Prior to NT10 the focus on Norse Mythology meant that Christianity was in the background, and now the focus is in the science side and Kakeru, not the magic side.

I don't agree with you about Yuiitsu/Kamisato/Mikoto being presented as a big deal/threat to Aleister. Given how he manhandled Yuiitsu it was pretty clear she's not that big of a threat, and the talk with her was likely him manipulating her since he wanted her to handle Kamisato to see if she can surpass Noukan. Kamisato's sudden appearance surprised him, but he adapted quickly. And Mikoto is clearly doing the wrong thing by relying and chasing after the AAA, it's just a matter of time Aleister uses it against her.

[LG-MAX 2.o]

Originally Posted by Natsurin

I'm going to piss off a lot of NT purists here, but was there ever an actual point in NT? I've struggled to see a recurring theme that all volumes worked towards unlike OT which had the focus on memories, self-acceptance, heroes and redemption.

I do think it's a bit naive to expect Aleister to reconsider himself, though, since this story isn't about his self-doubt and will never be; he created an entire system of supernatural for his own goals and you think he'd suddenly decide "oh, well, maybe I went overboard there" just because Noukan died...?

Ah bro, this is Index, feelings change the people in question of pages, when Touma confrot Aleister this should happen easily.

[DragonXX]

Originally Posted by Natsurin

I'm going to piss off a lot of NT purists here, but was there ever an actual point in NT? I've struggled to see a recurring theme that all volumes worked towards unlike OT which had the focus on memories, self-acceptance, heroes and redemption.

I do think it's a bit naive to expect Aleister to reconsider himself, though, since this story isn't about his self-doubt and will never be; he created an entire system of supernatural for his own goals and you think he'd suddenly decide "oh, well, maybe I went overboard there" just because Noukan died...?

The only recurring theme for NT using last only for like 10 volume so basely for a Story Arc. The only other recurring theme I have see so far in NT is about Self-Doubt and over coming it.

I also agreed that Crowley wouldn't break from just killing Nouken because this series have show he would do what ever it take to get his plan to work. Even if a part of him is hoping for a miracle beyond his understanding like he said in NT14 ending when he get mad for his plan now working out far too well which it seen like he was having some trouble at the Start of NT which was fix before the end of NT10.

Also did the Magic God come back from WR?
Because we should be around the end of the Current Story Arc because we are like 7 volumes into this Story Arc and Kamachi have try to make his Story Arc about 10 volumes long which the GRS Arc being 11 volume because the last one was make into 2. So we should be just around the Climax of this Current Story Arc.

I myself also believe that everything in NT will come together when we get to the final arc of NT like GRS Arc did for OT, even if it does not end the Index series. I also think the next Story Arc of NT will also bring everything in NT so far together like The Daihaseisai Arc of Railgun did for the railgun manga first three arcs.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Finished the volume.
I starting to get annoyed by Kamachi's recent writing style.
As in, what really moves the plot happens only in the last couple of pages.

Oh dear. I was kinda worried that this was the case when a bunch of Amazon reviews all kept going そろそろ.

Originally Posted by Natsurin

I'm going to piss off a lot of NT purists here, but was there ever an actual point in NT? I've struggled to see a recurring theme that all volumes worked towards unlike OT which had the focus on memories, self-acceptance, heroes and redemption.

Well to be honest, I did feel that there was something there for the first 10-11 volumes. But make no mistake, that feeling has long since disappeared by now. Whatever Kamachi is trying to do he's taking FAR TOO LONG to get to the point and tightening the focus of the immediate plot to a bunch of newly introduced characters at the cost of already established ones are damaging the story. It was still salvageable by NT13...

[bakato]

Originally Posted by shmaster

Finished the volume.
I starting to get annoyed by Kamachi's recent writing style.
As in, what really moves the plot happens only in the last couple of pages.

And it really makes you feel that whatever happened in the main chunk of the story is kinda meaningless, as it didn't make much of a difference in the end.

If anything, Tsuchimikado kinda is the only one who did something meaningful.

This volume is actually the first round of Aleister vs. Laura that everyone is waiting form. Of course, you won't even notice this is what's happening in the last few pages.

Originally Posted by Natsurin

I'm going to piss off a lot of NT purists here, but was there ever an actual point in NT? I've struggled to see a recurring theme that all volumes worked towards unlike OT which had the focus on memories, self-acceptance, heroes and redemption.

I do think it's a bit naive to expect Aleister to reconsider himself, though, since this story isn't about his self-doubt and will never be; he created an entire system of supernatural for his own goals and you think he'd suddenly decide "oh, well, maybe I went overboard there" just because Noukan died...?

This has been a recurring theme in every volume. Aleister and Laura are Cthulhu, monsters that act behind the scenes whose plans and influence are beyond our power to comprehend much less thwart. We rarely see them at work, glimpses at best. Touma and co. are nothing more than pieces on a board to be manipulated, most often by being thrown into conflicts. However, this does not diminish their agency as they act of their own will although this is within the predictions of the players.

To answer your complaint shmaster, it was not meaningless. Aleister's plan would have succeeded whether Touma failed to bring back Kamisato or not and regardless of the greater game being played, Touma would have tried to save Kamisato. This contributes to Kamachi's message. Touma does not overreach himself by considering the future consequences of his actions. He acts in the present, the only place where he has any power tosave the people in front of him.

[Natsurin]

Originally Posted by bakato

This has been a recurring theme in every volume. Aleister and Laura are Cthulhu, monsters that act behind the scenes whose plans and influence are beyond our power to comprehend much less thwart. We rarely see them at work, glimpses at best. Touma and co. are nothing more than pieces on a board to be manipulated, most often by being thrown into conflicts. However, this does not diminish their agency as they act of their own will although this is within the predictions of the players.

Um... Maybe I'm missing some irony and I'm sorry in that case, but if not how is that specific to Index and New Testament as opposed to literally every story with mastermind villains ever?

If "Aleister and Laura are monsters that control the boardgame that is the world behind the scenes and the protagonists are subjected at that whim" is all the theme NT has to offer then I think Kamachi's losing his touch with long-running series and I agree with OH&S that it's doing damage to what was once an amazing series over anything else. In that case it'd be probably for the best to end it sooner than later before Index becomes more of an unpleasant experience than it sometimes is.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by LazyHunter

OT had Aleister directly tell Fiamma that Christianity was limited and that its time was basically over. Phases were discussed in NT9, but the Magic Gods were never said to be responsible or the owners of the religious Phases. As for Heaven/Hell, it might be talked about when Aleister launches his plan if he really wants something like an artificial Heaven. Prior to NT10 the focus on Norse Mythology meant that Christianity was in the background, and now the focus is in the science side and Kakeru, not the magic side.

No, from the Othinus arc we already know the the gods in the mythos are conjured up by humanity to explain the magic gods after they have laid their phases.
Like how all the versions of Odins out there are just humanity's way to explain her.
So by this logic, there has to be a Magic God that laid the phase that eventually got humanity interpret him as the Christian God. This is actually a pretty big deal, yet Kamachi jumped into Kamisato arc without any discussion of this.
Especially when Aleister is employing his own versions of angels and heaven in his schemes.

[LazyHunter]

Originally Posted by shmaster

No, from the Othinus arc we already know the the gods in the mythos are conjured up by humanity to explain the magic gods after they have laid their phases.
Like how all the versions of Odins out there are just humanity's way to explain her.
So by this logic, there has to be a Magic God that laid the phase that eventually got humanity interpret him as the Christian God. This is actually a pretty big deal, yet Kamachi jumped into Kamisato arc without any discussion of this.
Especially when Aleister is employing his own versions of angels and heaven in his schemes.

Except this was only said about Othinus, and there are phases without any apparent magic gods. And like I said, Heaven and angels weren't a part of Othinus arc and they have not been a part of World Rejecter arc, so of course they are not discussed in those arcs.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by shmaster

I starting to get annoyed by Kamachi's recent writing style.
As in, what really moves the plot happens only in the last couple of pages.

And it really makes you feel that whatever happened in the main chunk of the story is kinda meaningless, as it didn't make much of a difference in the end.

If anything, Tsuchimikado kinda is the only one who did something meaningful.

This volume is actually the first round of Aleister vs. Laura that everyone is waiting form. Of course, you won't even notice this is what's happening until the last few pages.

A lot of readers has been on this already. I think even Debi blog was something like that causing a discussion on the comment section.

Originally Posted by shmaster

On Fiamma, I was actually hoping something well be done to his right hand for a long time. Especially when Othinus arc just ended. I mean, Fiamma now knows what he did wrong. There are now manu opportunity that can undo his mistakes.
There were the time I was expecting him dig out the Kakine Brain after the Othinus arc, and with the help of Ollerus that he'll be able to extract something Horusian out of the Dark Matter and came up with a brand new right hand that can wield Holy Right in max potential. (oh, and don't get me started on Kakine, instead of making him the BEETLE, there are actually a lot more areas on Dark Matter we can explore).

Welcome to the Fiamma's boat and how Kakine lost his character by becoming "that".

As for Magic Gods, I am not talking about having them as new bosses, but rather a discussion of their phases. And hopefully that'll lead into the discussion of the Christian phases and the Christian Magic God. OT pretty much told us that Christian Phases is a big deal, and I was expecting further discussion into it. Then finally the Magic Gods, the real owner of all the phases that produced magic showed up... only to be shoved away like in two volumes.

The world lore was one of the best things I enjoyed on the first part of the original series which has been lost here on NT.

As for Yuiitsu/Kamisato/Misaka, what I don't like was how the plot presented as some sort of a big deal, another important step in the grand deal of things. That even Aleister has to make his move carefully if he do not want things to get fucked up... and then again, in like two volumes and Aleister is like they are no longer important. I mean, Kamachi, seriously? This is not how you play with your readers.

That's how it's been for a while on NT since NT10. Nothign to be surprised about you know?

Originally Posted by LazyHunter

Aleister would likely win. He might be a valid target to WR, but he only has to blindside Kakeru like he did with Fiamma and he would win even more easily, as WR does not have the automatic defense trait Holy Right has.

Does it though? Kakeru said it auto expels anything that comes in contact to his right hand.

And with Fiamma the poor guy was all beaten up to pulp which makes it seem that Aleister waited until Fiamma was defenseless.

[LazyHunter]

Originally Posted by Kuroageha

Does it though? Kakeru said it auto expels anything that comes in contact to his right hand.

And with Fiamma the poor guy was all beaten up to pulp which makes it seem that Aleister waited until Fiamma was defenseless.

That only means it works like IB. Unlike those two, Holy Right acts independently of Fiamma to block and counter attacks he's not aware of at incredible ranges. IIRC Fiamma only had received one punch from Touma, which is hardly being beaten to a pulp. Aleister still defeated him pretty easily. Following the same strategy (use bilocation to exist behind him and blindside him with the Blasting Rod) should work. Not to mention that if the fight happens inside AC Aleister could use whatever he used against Leivinia in NT1 and simply cut Kakeru's head off.

[shmaster]

Originally Posted by LazyHunter

Except this was only said about Othinus, and there are phases without any apparent magic gods. And like I said, Heaven and angels weren't a part of Othinus arc and they have not been a part of World Rejecter arc, so of course they are not discussed in those arcs.

And can you not see this by itself is a problem?
Christianity still has a bunch of loose ends that are not tied up.
Yet Kamachi ignores that completely and moves into something else.
And when we have an opportunity to resume that discussion when the Magic Gods showed up, he just move into Kamisato instead.

[Kuroageha]

Originally Posted by LazyHunter

That only means it works like IB. Unlike those two, Holy Right acts independently of Fiamma to block and counter attacks he's not aware of at incredible ranges. IIRC Fiamma only had received one punch from Touma, which is hardly being beaten to a pulp. Aleister still defeated him pretty easily. Following the same strategy (use bilocation to exist behind him and blindside him with the Blasting Rod) should work. Not to mention that if the fight happens inside AC Aleister could use whatever he used against Leivinia in NT1 and simply cut Kakeru's head off.

No, I meant them shielding their users in different ways. Touma and Kakeru's are AoE passive abilities while Fiamma was a counter that reacts to danger.

Originally Posted by shmaster

No, from the Othinus arc we already know the the gods in the mythos are conjured up by humanity to explain the magic gods after they have laid their phases.
Like how all the versions of Odins out there are just humanity's way to explain her.
So by this logic, there has to be a Magic God that laid the phase that eventually got humanity interpret him as the Christian God. This is actually a pretty big deal, yet Kamachi jumped into Kamisato arc without any discussion of this.
Especially when Aleister is employing his own versions of angels and heaven in his schemes.

Well my theory for this was that maybe Kamachi planned the christian god to be The Almigthy hinted on Vol.4.

[LazyHunter]

Originally Posted by shmaster

And can you not see this by itself is a problem?
Christianity still has a bunch of loose ends that are not tied up.
Yet Kamachi ignores that completely and moves into something else.
And when we have an opportunity to resume that discussion when the Magic Gods showed up, he just move into Kamisato instead.

They weren't tied up because they weren't important to the arc that was going to happen: Magic God Othinus which was focused in Norse mythology. Once again, the other Magic Gods were not going to be the next big thing after Othinus. They were a tool used by Kamachi to do a few things:

1) Keep Othinus around, likely because she proved to be a popular character and editors tend to frown on authors killing those off and because Kamachi seems to enjoy using her to develop Touma.

2) Reinforce Aleister Crowley as the main bad guy. Aleister had done nothing since the start of NT, and we had just gone through the Othinus arc showing what a Magic God was capable of. Kamachi needed to reestablish why Aleister is kind of a big deal so that he is a credible main bad guy, otherwise you'd have people saying: "why are people/the story making a big deal about Aleister when we had a reality warper destroy the world in the previous arc?".

3) Introduce the next arc, the World Rejecter arc, by introducing Kakeru, a normal guy who accidentally gets power from them and gets involved with the already established setting.

The Magic Gods were not supposed to be a long arc or a lasting villain that would reveal more about the setting, they and their mini-arc were an introduction to Kakeru and World Rejecter. I understood the confusion about this when NT13 happened, but NT17 is the 4th novel of the arc, this should already be clear. If Kamachi started discussing Christianity, the Christian God and Heaven in Othinus arc and/or World Rejecter arc where they don't belong he'd only spread the story too thin. It makes much more sense to relegate those possible explanations to an arc where they are important, just like the concept of Magic Gods and Phases were first introduced in OT but were not explained in detail until Othinus arc.

@Kuroageha
I wouldn't exactly call IB an AoE ability, and it and WR are still dependant on their users to move and use them effectively, which is not the case with Holy Right.

[Kuroageha]

Not quite accurate, as Terra said, Touma has yet to realise how IB is meant to be used.