Gundam 00 Movie: A wakening of the Trailblazer - Discussion

[Duo Maxwell]

Is it me or people actually run out of idea to bash the movie already? It's getting lame...

[Reckoner]

So I haven't cared to go looking through the massive amount of posts in this thread, so if I repeat anything anyone has already said, I apologize.

Overall, I felt this was a rather disappointing end to a series that started out quite strongly. The first season was rather entertaining, but seeing as how the end of the second season was very weak, I suppose this is to be expected.

Perhaps I've never been too keen on the idea of the quantum brain waves and communicating with other people from the start. The idea has just not personally jided too well with me since it started appearing in season 1. In season 2 the whole thing with Gundam Raiser sending out particles everywhere and linking everyone's minds was personally also a little too much for me.

The reason the idea hasn't gone too well over with me is that constantly this series has tried to portray war as a bad thing, and constantly it has preached the idea of only "understanding" can lead to peace. But the quantam brain waves makes it too easy for this. It is easy to understand people when your minds are directly linked. It's easy to understand these aliens when you can directly link your mind to their thoughts. But what if you couldn't do that? Much like the real world, you can't simply enter the minds of others and understand everything about them.

Yeah, sure understanding each other is great, but can we express this in a more realistic way? The real world won't work like that. Sure I may be unreasonable to expect this sort of realism on the issue in a series with sci-fi and futuristic and fictional elements in it, but the issue is a very real one in our world and if they wish to deal with this issue in a meaningful way, I feel they should treat it as realistically as possible.

Anyhow, besides taking issue with that, I felt there was not enough character interaction given to us throughout the movie (The series in general too). Celestial being are all comrades, but there was barely anytime to see them interact. You can have the most interesting characters in the world, but without seeing them do anything on screen except fight in battles, it becomes a bit of a waste. I know Setsuna for example was not the most talkative guy in the series, but the only person he really ever bothered to interact with in any meaningful way was the original Lockon Stratos, and Princess Marina. This is a bit disappointing to me. All the characters in Celestial Being had so much faith in Setsuna, but he barely interacted with any of them. How can they put so much of their faith in trust in someone they barely know?

Furthermore, Aeolia Schenberg was a bit too much for me. He planned out the orbital elevators to power the earth. OK, he's smart. He figured out technology that shouldn't have even started appearing for centuries. Damn, he's a genius. He constructed a plan to unite the world and try to end war. This guy was quite the mastermind. He conceived the idea of innovators and innovades. He also predicted the arrival of aliens. Alright, that's a little too out there for me. The guy was already treading on godlike waters for a single man, but that was just a little too much for me to bear with. He might as well be God himself.

Overall, while the visuals were nice and some of the fights may have been visually stunning, I thought the movie and Gundam 00 in general was lacking in many aspects listed above. I felt the plot became less and less interesting as it went on, seeing as how the goal of "ending war" became sort of lost in the battle with the innovades and now the aliens. Not that the idea of trying to understand one another became lost, but when it comes to the idea of war, I feel it is much more pertinent to deal with the war between men and themselves first. Trying to bring this idea to a war between humans and non-human entities just does not quite bring the same messages and thoughts into play for me.

Unfortunately I will have to give this movie a 5/10. I was just left very disappointed in general. Gundam 00 in general gets about a 6/10, with the first season being a 7/10, and second season a 6/10.

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

The reason the idea hasn't gone too well over with me is that constantly this series has tried to portray war as a bad thing, and constantly it has preached the idea of only "understanding" can lead to peace. But the quantam brain waves makes it too easy for this. It is easy to understand people when your minds are directly linked. It's easy to understand these aliens when you can directly link your mind to their thoughts. But what if you couldn't do that? Much like the real world, you can't simply enter the minds of others and understand everything about them.

Yeah, sure understanding each other is great, but can we express this in a more realistic way? The real world won't work like that. Sure I may be unreasonable to expect this sort of realism on the issue in a series with sci-fi and futuristic and fictional elements in it, but the issue is a very real one in our world and if they wish to deal with this issue in a meaningful way, I feel they should treat it as realistically as possible.

That was the purpose of Phase 1 and 2 of Aeolia's plan. If 00 Raiser flew into a random war and used Trans Am Burst, Setsuna would have been laughed at. Now that humanity is united, humanity is now more open to understanding each other then just wanting to kill the enemy.

Now the ELS being open to understand humanity is just extreme good luck.

Anyhow, besides taking issue with that, I felt there was not enough character interaction given to us throughout the movie (The series in general too). Celestial being are all comrades, but there was barely anytime to see them interact. You can have the most interesting characters in the world, but without seeing them do anything on screen except fight in battles, it becomes a bit of a waste. I know Setsuna for example was not the most talkative guy in the series, but the only person he really ever bothered to interact with in any meaningful way was the original Lockon Stratos, and Princess Marina. This is a bit disappointing to me. All the characters in Celestial Being had so much faith in Setsuna, but he barely interacted with any of them. How can they put so much of their faith in trust in someone they barely know?

As you already mentioned, Setsuna in season 1 didn't really interact with anyone besides Neil and Marina. He opened up in season 2 and did interact with the crew. As mentioned in the movie by Lasse and Sumeragi, Setsuna deals with his change into an Innovator by returning to his season 1 form because he doesn't understand his new abilities, but still knew he was extremely different than regular humans. The crew understood Setsuna's feelings and knew he was still who he was. That is why they were able to trust him.

Furthermore, Aeolia Schenberg was a bit too much for me. He planned out the orbital elevators to power the earth. OK, he's smart. He figured out technology that shouldn't have even started appearing for centuries. Damn, he's a genius. He constructed a plan to unite the world and try to end war. This guy was quite the mastermind. He conceived the idea of innovators and innovades. He also predicted the arrival of aliens. Alright, that's a little too out there for me. The guy was already treading on godlike waters for a single man, but that was just a little too much for me to bear with. He might as well be God himself.

Aeolia didn't predict the arrival of aliens to Earth. All he wanted to do was have humanity understand each other so they wouldn't bring war with them when they went to explore the universe. He did expect humanity to encounter aliens somewhere along the way, but he didn't predict them coming to Earth.

Overall, while the visuals were nice and some of the fights may have been visually stunning, I thought the movie and Gundam 00 in general was lacking in many aspects listed above. I felt the plot became less and less interesting as it went on, seeing as how the goal of "ending war" became sort of lost in the battle with the innovades and now the aliens. Not that the idea of trying to understand one another became lost, but when it comes to the idea of war, I feel it is much more pertinent to deal with the war between men and themselves first. Trying to bring this idea to a war between humans and non-human entities just does not quite bring the same messages and thoughts into play for me.

You saw them deal with war between themselves first in both seasons. The movie expanded that to aliens.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by quagmire

That was the purpose of Phase 1 and 2 of Aeolia's plan. If 00 Raiser flew into a random war and used Trans Am Burst, Setsuna would have been laughed at. Now that humanity is united, humanity is now more open to understanding each other then just wanting to kill the enemy.

Now the ELS being open to understand humanity is just extreme good luck.

Irregardless of phase 1 and 2 of the plan, I still felt it made "understanding" each other too surreal, and I find it hard to relate such an idea to the real world. All I got from that was "I guess it'd be nice if there was a device capable of this, but uh that cannot be related to our current world."

Originally Posted by quagmire

As you already mentioned, Setsuna in season 1 didn't really interact with anyone besides Neil and Marina. He opened up in season 2 and did interact with the crew. As mentioned in the movie by Lasse and Sumeragi, Setsuna deals with his change into an Innovator by returning to his season 1 form because he doesn't understand his new abilities, but still knew he was extremely different than regular humans. The crew understood Setsuna's feelings and knew he was still who he was. That is why they were able to trust him.

What I'm saying is that Setsuna in season 2 really didn't open up all that much. They tried to make a distinction, but he was barely any more sociable. But that's not exactly the point. It was not just Setsuna I was talking about, but all the characters. There was a lack of meaningful character interaction on a more holistic level.

Originally Posted by quagmire

Aeolia didn't predict the arrival of aliens to Earth. All he wanted to do was have humanity understand each other so they wouldn't bring war with them when they went to explore the universe. He did expect humanity to encounter aliens somewhere along the way, but he didn't predict them coming to Earth.

You saw them deal with war between themselves first in both seasons. The movie expanded that to aliens.

I already understood the bolded part. I'll just restate that the whole thing with the innovades and innovators, alongside the concept of "first contact" was a bit out there for me.

War between men themselves was only really dealt with in the first season though. In the second season, celestial being became an anti government group fighting against the ALAWS, and then against Ribbons Almark and the innovades rather than a group focused on ending war. No that wasn't their stated purpose, but the series forced them into such a position in the plot.

I just never felt they resolved the issue with war and man first. Then they moved onto totally different ideas altogether like the artificial humans (Innovades) and then first contact, which are nice to explore in their own right, but they totally left the original narrative of this story hanging a bit in my own eyes.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Irregardless of phase 1 and 2 of the plan, I still felt it made "understanding" each other too surreal, and I find it hard to relate such an idea to the real world. All I got from that was "I guess it'd be nice if there was a device capable of this, but uh that cannot be related to our current world."

You're talking it too literally. The idea is that there's going to be misunderstandings. As long as we're aware of that fact, we can take steps towards reducing the damage.

What I'm saying is that Setsuna in season 2 really didn't open up all that much. They tried to make a distinction, but he was barely any more sociable. But that's not exactly the point. It was not just Setsuna I was talking about, but all the characters. There was a lack of meaningful character interaction on a more holistic level.

How would you have liked to see them interact?

I already understood the bolded part. I'll just restate that the whole thing with the innovades and innovators, alongside the concept of "first contact" was a bit out there for me.

I'll agree with you there.

War between men themselves was only really dealt with in the first season though. In the second season, celestial being became an anti government group fighting against the ALAWS, and then against Ribbons Almark and the innovades rather than a group focused on ending war. No that wasn't their stated purpose, but the series forced them into such a position in the plot.

They were still focused on ending war. They saw the A-LAWS and Ribbons' group as the biggest obstacles to that.

I just never felt they resolved the issue with war and man first. Then they moved onto totally different ideas altogether like the artificial humans (Innovades) and then first contact, which are nice to explore in their own right, but they totally left the original narrative of this story hanging a bit in my own eyes.

I agree with you somewhat. But artificial humans was never the idea they were exploring in S2.

[Rising Dragon]

I take it, Reckoner, that since you're not a fan of the concept of Innovators, you're similarly not a fan of the concept of Newtypes?

[quagmire]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I take it, Reckoner, that since you're not a fan of the concept of Innovators, you're similarly not a fan of the concept of Newtypes?

I don't think he isn't a fan of the concept of Innovators. I think he doesn't like that Aeolia predicted human evolution into Innovators along with the other things he predicted/accomplished which is a bit godlike.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by quagmire

I don't think he isn't a fan of the concept of Innovators. I think he doesn't like that Aeolia predicted human evolution into Innovators along with the other things he predicted/accomplished which is a bit godlike.

It wasn't god-like prediction. It was basic understanding of human nature and smart planning.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I take it, Reckoner, that since you're not a fan of the concept of Innovators, you're similarly not a fan of the concept of Newtypes?

I think you misunderstood me a little bit. I just didn't like how Schenberg managed to predict or conceive the idea of the innovators and innovades. I have no problem with the idea of the evolved human.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

You're talking it too literally. The idea is that there's going to be misunderstandings. As long as we're aware of that fact, we can take steps towards reducing the damage.

Not sure how that makes much of a difference to my point.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

How would you have liked to see them interact?

Like I pointed out the two examples with Setsuna of Lock and Marina. Just a little something more, where they actually have conversations that don't necessarily have everything to do with their upcoming mission. To explore their personality a little bit more. It's hard for me to put into words precisely, but all I can say is that I felt cheated that I didn't get to see "enough" of the characters.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

They were still focused on ending war. They saw the A-LAWS and Ribbons' group as the biggest obstacles to that.

Like I said, it was still within their goal of ending war, but it pidgeon holed them into a place in the plot where they were almost simply a group trying to rebel against a corrupt government. At the same time, they now had to deal with the innovades who were more like an evil entity threatening to take over the world more than propagators of war.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

I agree with you somewhat. But artificial humans was never the idea they were exploring in S2.

Well they were the ones who were supposedly going to lead mankind into the future according to them. So it was the idea that these human beings who were "more evolved" should be the ones to lead mankind. I felt this sidetracked the narrative a bit.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

It wasn't god-like prediction. It was basic understanding of human nature and smart planning.

Oh c'mon now. Lets not kid ourselves. This man's abilities are far beyond normal human's capabilities. What kind of man can predict things 2-3 centuries ahead with such accuracy?

[Rising Dragon]

I'm not asking you if you have a problem with the concept of an evolved human. I'm asking you if you have a problem with the concept of Newtypes as well as Innovators.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Like I pointed out the two examples with Setsuna of Lock and Marina. Just a little something more, where they actually have conversations that don't necessarily have everything to do with their upcoming mission. To explore their personality a little bit more. It's hard for me to put into words precisely, but all I can say is that I felt cheated that I didn't get to see "enough" of the characters.

I can agree with you there. But isn't that what we got with Lyle/Anew and Allelujah/Maria?

Like I said, it was still within their goal of ending war, but it pidgeon holed them into a place in the plot where they were almost simply a group trying to rebel against a corrupt government.

That's what Celestial Being was in the first place...

At the same time, they now had to deal with the innovades who were more like an evil entity threatening to take over the world more than propagators of war.

No... Celestial Being vs. the Innovades was really nothing more than an intra-faction civil war.

Well they were the ones who were supposedly going to lead mankind into the future according to them. So it was the idea that these human beings who were "more evolved" should be the ones to lead mankind. I felt this sidetracked the narrative a bit.

And how is that different from the idea that an "enlightened being" *cough*Aeolia*cough* should force humanity to change into his vision for it?

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

I'm not asking you if you have a problem with the concept of an evolved human. I'm asking you if you have a problem with the concept of Newtypes as well as Innovators.

No I don't. And evolved humans and newtypes/innovators are pretty much the same thing...

[monster]

Originally Posted by quagmire

That was the purpose of Phase 1 and 2 of Aeolia's plan. If 00 Raiser flew into a random war and used Trans Am Burst, Setsuna would have been laughed at. Now that humanity is united, humanity is now more open to understanding each other then just wanting to kill the enemy.

So to end war, we have to understand each other. But to understand each other, we have to be united?

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

I can agree with you there. But isn't that what we got with Lyle/Anew and Allelujah/Maria?

The bolded was good, but the Lyle/Anex relationship was a bit out of nowhere for me and progressed much too fast. And yes, this is what I sort of wanted, but there wasn't enough for my liking.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

That's what Celestial Being was in the first place...

An anti-corrupt government group? That's a bit different from trying to end all war. The former would be satisfied once the government is back into acting for the interests of their own people, which wasn't Celestial Being's only goal. They wanted to end war, stop the people's interests from creating conflict.

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

No... Celestial Being vs. the Innovades was really nothing more than an intra-faction civil war.

How so? Yes they technically both came from Schenberg's plan, but was that really it? How come they became the end boss in this conflict then?

Originally Posted by Kuroi Hadou

And how is that different from the idea that an "enlightened being" *cough*Aeolia*cough* should force humanity to change into his vision for it?

At the beginning Celestial Being was a group of idealists who followed a mastermind named Aeloia Schenberg. They sought to end conflict, war itself through the use of force. The world, and its three big nations revolted against this group and scoffed at their ideas of ending conflict.

Despite the pilots being so called idealists, each of them had personal struggles and troubled pasts. With the use of the Gundams, they would try, against all odds to both complete their mission and personal quests.

That's what the narrative was to me. The personal quests part stayed there in the story more or less, but it completely overshadowed their original mission, to end all war. They painted the innovades as the enemy, the twistedness of the world. Rather than trying to deal with the war on earth, and the struggles happening there, they conveniently united the evils of the earth into a) one giant corrupt military organization the A-LAWS, and b) these so called evolved humans who wanted to lead mankind.

I just felt it cheapened the effect.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

An anti-corrupt government group? That's a bit different from trying to end all war. The former would be satisfied once the government is back into acting for the interests of their own people, which wasn't Celestial Being's only goal. They wanted to end war, stop the people's interests from creating conflict.

And a large majority of the wars in season one were the result of governments. Of course there are terrorist groups and PMCs, but the PMCs, at least, were typically operating via government contract. The governments in season one may not have been corrupt, but they were all broken.

How so? Yes they technically both came from Schenberg's plan, but was that really it? How come they became the end boss in this conflict then?

Actually they were the perfect end boss. The Innovades claimed that Celestial Being's role was over the moment the world united against them, and that the Innovades were responsible for fulfilling the rest of the Plan. Celestial Being, on the other hand, was operating under the belief that their actions had somehow resulted in the Plan being distorted, or hijacked, and sought to bring it back on track by erasing the offending party.

Rather than trying to deal with the war on earth, and the struggles happening there, they conveniently united the evils of the earth into a) one giant corrupt military organization the A-LAWS, and b) these so called evolved humans who wanted to lead mankind.

See above.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Oh c'mon now. Lets not kid ourselves. This man's abilities are far beyond normal human's capabilities. What kind of man can predict things 2-3 centuries ahead with such accuracy?

Well, we have Nostradamous. >__>

On a more serious note, it's not his predictions that I find powerful, but rather his powerful theories of Twin Drive, GN Drive, Veda, GN Particles, Solar Elevators (the current system was his design), Innovade and Innovators. The Plan was very macro-like in nature as far as his role is concerned, a lot of the micro-managements is done by Veda and the future members of the organisation. For example, Aeolia never expected the Gundams to be humanoid weapons despite the fact that he created the machines that would eventually evolve into the modern day mobile suits and he never forsaw the need of Jupiter for his GN Driveds either, that was discovered by later generation scientists.

Still, he did create a very elaborated Plan and the reason why he can implement them in good stages is because Celestial Being for centuries has had a hand in world events(especially after they got Veda who controls a lot of information), so his not predicting random events his making them happen to his liking. They worked behind the scenes in the denuclearisation of the world, the advocation of Aeolia's Solar Energy system (which required the blocs to be formed since the endeavour would be too expensive for any one nation, CB influenced their creation)

All the random things he did predict was stuff like eventually meeting extraterrestial life, which isn't that hard especially if you consider the more advanced spaceobservation technology of his day combined with likely more knwoledge of the universe. We already have some reputable scientists today saying it, Aeolia is just certain of it enough. Even then, he never predicted was aliens specifically humanity will encounter. Knowing about Innovators is easy since he already discovered the GN Particles and know their properties which induces them. He likesly also can predict geopolitics more accurate in the future, likely how the real world US claims to have a secret algorithm that can do the same.

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Rather than trying to deal with the war on earth, and the struggles happening there, they conveniently united the evils of the earth into a) one giant corrupt military organization the A-LAWS, and b) these so called evolved humans who wanted to lead mankind.

I just felt it cheapened the effect.

Well as KH mentioned, S2 was about a civil war of different factions of the Plan. One that was meant to be gone(but was protected to help againts the traitors, thanks to the systemtrap) and one that deviated from their role. The Innovades were meant to be the ones to carry out Phase 2 of the Plan, which is to help run a united humanity as well as to facilitate the transformation of humans into Innovators. The story basically deals with the inside "CB Inside Traitor" theme that was apparent at the end of S1 but was never resolved.

For the record, one of the magazines released during S2 I recall reading mentioned that 90% of war on Earth has been eradicated already due to Celestial Being's efforts in S1 and the resulting united government afterwords. S2 is about dealing about the problems of such a large government when they oppress the weaker factions, especially the Middle East who is not part of the Federation. Because while most of the world is enjoying the prospect of peace and economics booms due to the united government, those who are out of it are oppressed from it. (and I even recall some of them ar eplanned being forced migrate into different colonies too) There's also the interesting contrast of A-LAWS being similar to CB in terms of using force to keep the peace, of course the thing about A-LAWS is, they're not totally evil. You have people like Kati who believe in good things and ultimately saw A-LAWS as what it was, you have people like Ginin who wants revenge for something Katharon truly wronged him from, you have Andrei who is just a loyal soldier and you have Louise who is young, confused and vengeful for what happened to her. The Innovators are just playing all of them but even they had an interesting POV since they simply do not believe "humanity" will unite them, rather Ribbons wants to use his will to unite humanity. There's a lot of philosophical themes involved, since Aeolia is making humanity follow his Plan too so it's a complex web of "what is right but at what cost?" that can only be answered by the individual viewer despite how one sidedly evil Ribbons is portrayed to be and how benevolant the Ptolemaios faction are portrayed.

The lesson learned in the movie was that the peace brought upon by the fear of force is important but ultimately temporary and that to further glue humanity together they needed the Innovation to keep themselves united (for now and the future generations) as well as to help in their encounter with other races. Which was what 00 Qan(T) was about, it's not just about fighting it's about the unification of consciousness/empathy between people.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

The lesson learned in the movie was that the peace brought upon by the fear of force is important but ultimately temporary and that to further glue humanity together they needed the Innovation to keep themselves united (for now and the future generations) as well as to help in their encounter with other races. Which was what 00 Qan(T) was about, it's not just about fighting it's about the unification of consciousness/empathy between people.

That's what I was happy about in the movie. Even though he had the power to wipe out all the aliens, he still chose to negotiate and make peace.
This is what makes 'Gundam' a symbolic figure and not just a tool for destruction..

"A machine to put an end to the fighting."
"This is the Gundam that Setsuna wished for - OO Qan[T]."


Although after seeing the pics of the Full Saber, I kinda wished Setsuna chose not to negotiate, lol.

[akei1]

They have to make a season 3. You just can't turn Setsuna into an ELS Innovator at the end and not have an awesome scene where he's relentlessly chasing someone like the liquid mercury-based T-1000 from the first Terminator movie.

[deadite]

It should note that while the Qan[T] could theoretically defeat the ELS, it would only be able to do so in along span of time and not taking to account pilot fatigue and ELS' true power. By the time Setsuna was finished, he would be tired or near dead and humanity would have fallen already.

[Kuroi Hadou]

Originally Posted by deadite

It should note that while the Qan[T] could theoretically defeat the ELS, it would only be able to do so in along span of time and not taking to account pilot fatigue and ELS' true power. By the time Setsuna was finished, he would be tired or near dead and humanity would have fallen already.

... yeah we already figured that out about a month ago.