Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[bladeofdarkness]

bad writing is bad
no excusing it with "rule of cool"
emotional stand not withstanding, the show doesnt survive two minutes of fridge logic
its almost as bad as the ending of GSD (from a writing standpoint its worse, but the plot is slightly better)
and even the emotinal impact is lost somewhat by the fact that NONE OF IT was needed
and the fact that lelouch had stopped being likable (at least to me) lessens the impact (i didnt feel half as bad about his death as i did about say... kamina)
his death didnt seem like a twist or a tragedy becouse his actions during the entrie last arc made it clear that it would end in his death (the method wasnt clear but the death was)
to utterly mis-quote ben franklin "he who would sacrifice logicol plot progression and pacing for unpredictable ending and emotional impact deserves neither"

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

bad writing is bad
no excusing it with "rule of cool"
emotional stand not withstanding, the show doesnt survive two minutes of fridge logic
its almost as bad as the ending of GSD (from a writing standpoint its worse, but the plot is slightly better)
and even the emotinal impact is lost somewhat by the fact that NONE OF IT was needed
and the fact that lelouch had stopped being likable (at least to me) lessens the impact (i didnt feel half as bad about his death as i did about say... kamina)
his death didnt seem like a twist or a tragedy becouse his actions during the entrie last arc made it clear that it would end in his death (the method wasnt clear but the death was)
to utterly mis-quote ben franklin "he who would sacrifice logicol plot progression and pacing for unpredictable ending and emotional impact deserves neither"

I disagree.
R2 as a whole wasn't nearly as well done as it could have been, but in my opinion, the ending almost made up for that.
I never stopped liking Lelouch - I don't have a problem with what he did to achieve Zero Requiem, and even before his plans became completely clear, I knew there was something going on. I don't know if I would have had the same unwavering faith in him if Suzaku hadn't been at his side, but I fangirled them all the way through and felt the tragedy approaching.
I also doubt that they tried to make the ending upredictable, because I expected something like that - and there are people who think it's one of the most predictable anime endings of all time. xD
It was certainly awesome, but not really a surprise.
And since when did they sacrifice the plot for the ending? Wasn't the ending the only thing that went exactly the way it should have? That's what I heard, and what it felt like to me.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I disagree.
R2 as a whole wasn't nearly as well done as it could have been, but in my opinion, the ending almost made up for that.
I never stopped liking Lelouch - I don't have a problem with what he did to achieve Zero Requiem, and even before his plans became completely clear, I knew there was something going on. I don't know if I would have had the same unwavering faith in him if Suzaku hadn't been at his side, but I fangirled them all the way through and felt the tragedy approaching.
I also doubt that they tried to make the ending upredictable, because I expected something like that - and there are people who think it's one of the most predictable anime endings of all time. xD
It was certainly awesome, but not really a surprise.
And since when did they sacrifice the plot for the ending? Wasn't the ending the only thing that went exactly the way it should have? That's what I heard, and what it felt like to me.

Just because you might fangirl/like/love/adore/zomg something, that does not mean automatically it is an exceptional piece of writing.

I do agree however, in the point that R2 is not THAT zomg!horrible as people make it out to be. It just did not live up in the expectations of the first season. First season raised the steaks way too much.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Just because you might fangirl/like/love/adore/zomg something, that does not mean automatically it is an exceptional piece of writing.

Really?
And here I thought I was the epitome of good taste.

I really wonder why I even bother saying this, but...
bladeofdarkness stated (not as a general fact, but still) that Lelouch's death became less meaningful to the viewers because he had become a lot less likable during the last few episodes. I disagreed.
And I never said that R2 was exceptional writing.

I agree with the rest of your posting, though.

[Dream_Traveller]

Own opinions, people...and, to be very frank, Lelouch did become a lot less likeable to some because he had rather needlessly turned himself into an utter bastard and a murderer, when he could have just brought about world peace and then refrained from killing whole families if one member from them spoke out against him and terrorizing people in general.

Severe case of the Idiot Ball...

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Own opinions, people...and, to be very frank, Lelouch did become a lot less likeable to some because he had rather needlessly turned himself into an utter bastard and a murderer, when he could have just brought about world peace and then refrained from killing whole families if one member from them spoke out against him and terrorizing people in general.

Severe case of the Idiot Ball...

*agrees with the own opinions part*
I'm sure there are quite some people who don't like Lelouch doing those things, but I think we all know that most of his fans aren't exactly critical with him.
And then there are those who know that he has his flaws, but don't find him less likeable because of them.
To a large part, I love Lelouch (and Suzaku and Clovis and most of the characters in Code Geass) because of how twisted he is, so Zero Requiem wasn't a problem for me at all.

[bladeofdarkness]

if they story hadnt been changed then maybe the ending would have made more sense
but the story WAS changed and so the ending that fit in the OLD script doesnt fit with the new one
differnet plot calls for different ENDING

and if you still liked lelouch despite his actions you havent been paying close enough attention to what his actions WERE

in ep 22 he starts by brain washing thousends of soldiers to be his cannon fodder red shirt army (using the phrase "SLAVES")

jeremia then walks in and tells him he has just returend from killing some nobleman who had the nerve to disagree with lelouch's actions
lelouch laments the fact that there are still people in britannia who have a problem with lelouch taking away their long held rights (whether or not you agree with the nobles having those rights, they have a right to complain when someone they never heard of takes them)

he and suzaku then have a long talk during which lelouch vows to erase the memory of euphie by spilling RIVERS OF BLOOD
read this again
lelouch vows to make the world forget about a massacre HE is resposible by carring out a MUCH LARGER massacre
for people blinded by big flashy words - a massacre = killing lots and lots of people (and rivers of blood = lots and lots and LOTS, of people)
god forbid he would make the world forget euphies name by say... clearing it, and taking the resposibility for it in some way (he can make up an excuse if he really wants to and doesnt want to tell about his geass)
and the kick is he mentions nunnaly and euphie during that talk, as if this is somehow what they would want, or agree to, or ever simply not do their best to prevent
and suzaku AGREES with him (to be fair, at that point suzaku has already stopped being suzaku)

lelouch then calls up the world leaders and invites them to talk peace and finally end the war once and for all (ironiclly the end goal of ZERO-R)
after gathering all the UFN leaders in one place (and expecting the OOBK to try something) he then has his new "knight of zero" crash the meet and takes all of them hostage (to be used as human shields)
and then just to be in sufferable he also makes it a point to send his troops in and conquer japan (the main goal that the OOBK have always been fighting to liberate

i have not yet mentioned his interaction with kallen becouse there is a good chance for it to be viewed as the only GOOD thing he actually does during ep 22

after that in ep 23 he throws a tantrum over nunnaly still being alive and has to be bright slapped by suzaku (pretty much)
am is suppose to feel sorry for him
he just went from sympathetic well intentioned extremist hero, to evil overlord in ONE SINGLE EPISODE
for no real reason other then HIS idea of how to end the war and make the world peaceful (as someone pointed out, its going from A to B by way of F U C K and then U again)
he DESERVES to have his sister oppose him

then there is a scene of C.C comforting him which is clearly suppose to mirror the events of ep 23 in season 1
the problem is that the events in season 1 (with euphie) were an actual targedy
lelouch's actions were as result of a horrible tragedy which he could not have prevented (he actually tried to)
in season 2 however there is not tragedy and no one to blame other then lelouch himself for INTENTIONALLY becoming a total monster
if he instead chose to have britannia join the UFN i doubt nunnaly would be able to credibly argue against his actions (since he would have actually ended the war)
lelouch repeatedly says that there is no other way except ZERO-R
but since we never actually learn WHY there is no other way, we only have HIS word for it
and thats bad writing in its finest

its like the writer couldnt actually deceide if they want to end the show with lelouch being a hero or a villain so they opted to try and find a middle ground
the problem is that while its possible to have a character be impossible to define, lelouch's character during the final arc ISNT SUCH A CHARACTER
he acts like a complete villain during the entire final arc (albit a knight templar one)
and the plot makes up for it by giving him the sympathetic protagonist POV
but its the same as the POV they gave light in death note (at this stage of the show, he IS like light)

its only that the plot arranges it so that his villainy never actually has a truely tragic result
if you want proof then simply pick on of these characters
nunnaly, kallen, kaguya, tianxi, xing-ke, milly, rivals, rakshata, sayoko, cecile, Lloyd,tamaki (maybe)
if ANY TWO of those characters had been killed during the final battle (which i remind you again, is completely lelouch's doing) would lelouch still be viewed in such a positive light ? (in light of the fact that its all lelouch's fault)
its only becouse the plot makes it so only diethard dies in the final battle that lelouch remains sympathetic

in death note light never actually loses the protagonist POV
but he stops being sympathetic around ep 7 (in which he spends an entire episode trying to murder a woman who might give L a clue as to his ID)
lelouch stops being sympathetic in ep 22 when he starts talking EXACTLY LIKE LIGHT (he knows whats best for the world and will make it so, no matter how many people he has to kill)

lelouch spends the entire show being compared to light yagami
and for most of the show he shows reasosn why he ISNT like him (more in season 2 then 1)
in the final arc he actually IS just like him
only instead of a god complex, he suffers from an atonement complex

you can argue with me on whether or not you like lelouch all day
but his own actions are that of a villain

[Dream_Traveller]

Nevertheless, he still could have not been such an...idiot, frankly. The world was prospering enough when he was benevolent- why he had to turn into a tyrant, imprison and almost execute all those who stood against him, murder entire families if one person dared to naysay him and change on a whim from probably the world's greatest ruler to the world's most bastardly and vilified leader, making the world a crapsack in the process when it was flourishing, is utterly beyond me.

[azul120]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

god forbid he would make the world forget euphies name by say... clearing it, and taking the resposibility for it in some way (he can make up an excuse if he really wants to and doesnt want to tell about his geass)
and the kick is he mentions nunnaly and euphie during that talk, as if this is somehow what they would want, or agree to, or ever simply not do their best to prevent
and suzaku AGREES with him (to be fair, at that point suzaku has already stopped being suzaku)

I don't think the common person would have understood, let alone believed in the Geass thing. As for Suzaku, he may very well understood what happened at the time.

All this discussion about whether Lelouch could have taken the diplomatic route is well and good, but what about the Schneizel factor? Would he make it easier or harder?

[Dream_Traveller]

Why would Schneizel matter? By this point he's a Geassed slave, anyway.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by azul120

I don't think the common person would have understood, let alone believed in the Geass thing. As for Suzaku, he may very well understood what happened at the time.

All this discussion about whether Lelouch could have taken the diplomatic route is well and good, but what about the Schneizel factor? Would he make it easier or harder?

fight Schneizel with the OOBK on HIS side
or fight Schneizel with teh OOBK on Schneizel's side
which do you think is easier

@Nogitsune

And then there are those who know that he has his flaws, but don't find him less likeable because of them.

you call everything i just listed as flaws ?

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and if you still liked lelouch despite his actions you havent been paying close enough attention to what his actions WERE

Yes, and if I like Itachi from "Naruto", I missed that he was introduced as a ruthless murderer.
Couldn't be the fact that this are fictional characters, and that I won't condemn them for anything if I like them and can see at least a part of their reasons.
Nope, I simply wasn't paying attention.

in ep 22 he starts by brain washing thousends of soldiers to be his cannon fodder red shirt army (using the phrase "SLAVES")

Lelouch became the ultimate evil to create a peaceful world.
Bad writing or not, those solderiers wouldn't have followed him otherwise, and he never pretended to be the most moral person.
Killing children out of grief and supposed necessity isn't too nice, either. He did it anyway.
And in my opinion, grief is not a better reason than wanting to end it once and for all.

jeremia then walks in and tells him he has just returend from killing some nobleman who had the nerve to disagree with lelouch's actions
lelouch laments the fact that there are still people in britannia who have a problem with lelouch taking away their long held rights (whether or not you agree with the nobles having those rights, they have a right to complain when someone they never heard of takes them)

"The only ones allowed to shoot are the ones prepared to be shot."
The nobles in Code Geass usually weren't exactly saints.
But even if they were... Lelouch thought that this was best and would cost less lives in the long-run. That doesn't make him right, but again, his methods were quite questionable from the very beginning.

he and suzaku then have a long talk during which lelouch vows to erase the memory of euphie by spilling RIVERS OF BLOOD

I never took that literally.
In my opinion, what he said there was the equivalent of an apology - which makes sense considering Suzaku's reaction.
Then again... "apology" is not a very good word. But in any case, from my point of view, it was more about his and Suzaku's bond than about them killing people in Euphie's name.

god forbid he would make the world forget euphies name by say... clearing it, and taking the resposibility for it in some way (he can make up an excuse if he really wants to and doesnt want to tell about his geass)

Lelouch wants to die and be hated for what he did, not make people understand what he did and why.
He could have done a lot of thing, but he is still a teenager with more emotional scars than I would want to have to count, not a saint.

and the kick is he mentions nunnaly and euphie during that talk, as if this is somehow what they would want, or agree to, or ever simply not do their best to prevent
and suzaku AGREES with him (to be fair, at that point suzaku has already stopped being suzaku)

I don't think they were truly fooling themselves there, and I don't agree with you about Suzaku at all, but let's not go into that.

lelouch then calls up the world leaders and invites them to talk peace and finally end the war once and for all (ironiclly the end goal of ZERO-R)
after gathering all the UFN leaders in one place (and expecting the OOBK to try something) he then has his new "knight of zero" crash the meet and takes all of them hostage (to be used as human shields)
and then just to be in sufferable he also makes it a point to send his troops in and conquer japan (the main goal that the OOBK have always been fighting to liberate

Yeah, Lelouch wasn't being very nice.
Never denied that.

i have not yet mentioned his interaction with kallen becouse there is a good chance for it to be viewed as the only GOOD thing he actually does during ep 22

I don't know what that has to do with anything.

after that in ep 23 he throws a tantrum over nunnaly still being alive and has to be bright slapped by suzaku (pretty much)
am is suppose to feel sorry for him
he just went from sympathetic well intentioned extremist hero, to evil overlord in ONE SINGLE EPISODE
for no real reason other then HIS idea of how to end the war and make the world peaceful (as someone pointed out, its going from A to B by way of F U C K and then U again)
he DESERVES to have his sister oppose him

I completely disagree.
R2 had a lot of flaws, but other than that, I didn't see Lelouch's actions as OOC or him as an evil overlord, and yeah, I do feel sorry for him.

lelouch repeatedly says that there is no other way except ZERO-R
but since we never actually learn WHY there is no other way, we only have HIS word for it
and thats bad writing in its finest

In the side material (the one in which he has this awesome talk with Suzaku) he explicitly states that there were other ways, but that Zero Requiem is the only one that feels right to him.
I think I already mentioned that a few times, though.

and the plot makes up for it by giving him the sympathetic protagonist POV
but its the same as the POV they gave light in death note (at this stage of the show, he IS like light)

I disagree, but... I'm not going into Death Note here. xD

its only that the plot arranges it so that his villainy never actually has a truely tragic result
if you want proof then simply pick on of these characters
nunnaly, kallen, kaguya, tianxi, xing-ke, milly, rivals, rakshata, sayoko, cecile, Lloyd,tamaki (maybe)
if ANY TWO of those characters had been killed during the final battle (which i remind you again, is completely lelouch's doing) would lelouch still be viewed in such a positive light ? (in light of the fact that its all lelouch's fault)

Wouldn't have changed anything for me.

lelouch spends the entire show being compared to light yagami
and for most of the show he shows reasosn why he ISNT like him (more in season 2 then 1)
in the final arc he actually IS just like him
only instead of a god complex, he suffers from an atonement complex

In my opinion, they're not the same, and I find Lelouch a lot more likeable.
For one, he doesn't pretend to be "good" or even right.

you can argue with me on whether or not you like lelouch all day
but his own actions are that of a villain

Hu? Why should I argue with you whether I like Lelouch or not?
I know that I like him.
And I also know that his actions were morally questionable.


Edit:

@Nogitsune

you call everything i just listed as flaws ?

Yep.
Well, not everything... like the talk about Euphie.
That, I call awesome. xD

[Dream_Traveller]

When he could have snapped out of his frankly infantile little funk and led the world to prosperity as he had done before he became infected with a lust for a grandiose suicide.

Oh, and 'not very nice' and 'not an evil overlord' are understatements. Because, after all, killing entire families and anyone who opposes you is truly not a sign of being an evil, verminous dictator of a human being, amirite? I could list examples...

And if you find bathing in the world in rivers of blood 'awesome', I regard you as a sick and twisted individual.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

When he could have snapped out of his frankly infantile little funk and led the world to prosperity as he had done before he became infected with a lust for a grandiose suicide.

From the moment he shot Clovis, it was clear to me that Lelouch wouldn't become a "hero".
You don't have to be happy about what he did, but I, personally, don't have a problem with it.

Oh, and 'not very nice' and 'not an evil overlord' are understatements. Because, after all, killing entire families and anyone who opposes you is truly not a sign of being an evil, verminous dictator of a human being, amirite? I could list examples...

Let's not go into the definition of "evil" again.
I like Lelouch. Even if he was the devil himself, it wouldn't change anything for me.
But hell, we don't even know how many people he killed and whom he geassed to get people talking about him wiping out families.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Really?
And here I thought I was the epitome of good taste.

Lol, i was talking in general. Sorry if it came off as an "arrogant attack" towards you.
For example, a lot of people claiming that Anew x Lyle were a GREAT zomg! romantic couple in Gundam, while they had zero development. Will this stop someone from liking it? {hell, i am even a supporter} No.
But a few people, make it seem like "because i like it, it is the best."
Does not work that way most of the times. 8D

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I really wonder why I even bother saying this, but...
bladeofdarkness stated (not as a general fact, but still) that Lelouch's death became less meaningful to the viewers because he had become a lot less likable during the last few episodes. I disagreed.
And I never said that R2 was exceptional writing.

I do not have time to read all of the tl;dr but it had the same impact to me. Whether if i considered some of his latest actions a bit "eh?" or not, the way it was orchestrated it was just epic and to get really attached to a character, requires time and Lelouch according to my own "meaning-time-standards" pretty much broke my meter. |D {along with some other charas in Geass, but he was def my fav}
And a few questionable actions, won't delete a million others, nor the core of a chara i have in mind, especially if it is proven in the end, that it was not prick-ish concept. //well maybe, that is the only biased-standard i have for Lelouch but who cares? 8DD

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by incorrupts

Lol, i was talking in general. Sorry if it came off as an "arrogant attack" towards you.
For example, a lot of people claiming that Anew x Lyle were a GREAT zomg! romantic couple in Gundam, while they had zero development. Will this stop someone from liking it? {hell, i am even a supporter} No.
But a few people, make it seem like "because i like it, it is the best."
Does not work that way most of the times. 8D

Ah, all right then. xD
I agree.

I do not have time to read all of the tl;dr but it had the same impact to me. Whether if i considered some of his latest actions a bit "eh?" or not, the way it was orchestrated it was just epic and to get really attached to a character, requires time and Lelouch according to my own "meaning-time-standards" pretty much broke my meter. |D {along with some other charas in Geass, but he was def my fav}
And a few questionable actions, won't delete a million others, nor the core of a chara i have in mind, especially if it is proven in the end, that it was not prick-ish concept. //well maybe, that is the only biased-standard i have for Lelouch but who cares? 8DD

*nods her head to that*
Lelouch was awesome, and the only way for him to truly disappoint me would have been killing off all his precious people and then take over.
Which I never thought very likely... so I never got the opportunity to doubt him, because first there was his awesome entrance, and then Suzaku appeared by his side. From that moment on, I knew they had something better in mind than "yay, let's pwn them!". xD

[bladeofdarkness]

I never took that literally.

why not ?
he did it

He could have done a lot of thing, but he is still a teenager with more emotional scars than I would want to have to count, not a saint.

he sacrifices himself to make the world a better place
sounds like what i would expect from a saint
its just that he sacrifices himself to solve the problems that he could have solved WITHOUT sacrificing himself
and he infact made the world spectaculerly worse as part of this crazy plan
when all he had to do was just fix the world rather then destroy and recreated it (again i would remind you that the destroying part means killing a lot of people)

In the side material (the one in which he has this awesome talk with Suzaku) he explicitly states that there were other ways, but that Zero Requiem is the only one that feels right to him.

light yagami

Wouldn't have changed anything for me.

good for you
too bad that it means you are judging his actions by "lelouch is cool, so his actions are cool" rather then the normal "his actions are cool, so he is cool"

And I also know that his actions were morally questionable.

his actions as ZERO were morally questionable (he wasnt TRYING to be a monster)
his actions in the final arc are monsterus
and a happen to judge a character by its actions
ali al sarches from gundam 00 is super awesome and cool to some people
doesnt prevent him form being a complete monster with no redeeming traits whatsoever
lelouch WAS a likable character during most of the show, but he wasnt one in the last arc (anything reason i had to like him during that arc was my memory of his character in the past)
and only his death saved him from being a character i completely hate

[Xander]

You can certainly question, from a purely external perspective, the logic behind the specifics of Lelouch's plan, in terms of what could have been the "better" way to go about it, but I think it is actually in line with the rest of the story and his own character. If you want to put it another way...I don't think it is bad writing at all, thematically, even if may still be flawed, pragmatically.

Lelouch was never a pure hero or a pure villain, really, in either season, if you want to make a list of all his actions, and if some people started to hate Lelouch only due to Zero Requiem...well, I really can't agree, but I respect that opinion...though in some ways, I think that is missing the point.

Comparing Lelouch and Light is possible, but there are also important differences. Light had no intention to sacrifice himself and, if anything, actually started to believe he was a deity who would always shape and control the world from the shadows, at no cost to himself. That was the whole point. Lelouch had a pretty big ego, sure, but I don't believe he ever considered himself to be a perfect being and his plan, while forceful, intentionally removed himself from the picture as punishment for his sins and as a way to let others choose their own path from then on. Could he have come up with a way to do all this and still remain alive? Sure, but I don't think he thought he deserved it. Not after all the people he killed or who died because of him, to say the least.

In fact, you can see signs of his wanting to sacrifice his own happiness, for the sake of his goals, even back in season one (like when he talked about making Suzaku Nunnally's knight, because at some point he could no longer be with her...or his decision to carry onward in spite of what happened to Shirley and Euphemia, for which he was largely responsible).

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

why not ?
he did it

Because of the context, and because of Suzaku's reaction.
I said that already.

he sacrifices himself to make the world a better place
sounds like what i would expect from a saint
its just that he sacrifices himself to solve the problems that he could have solved WITHOUT sacrificing himself
and he infact made the world spectaculerly worse as part of this crazy plan
when all he had to do was just fix the world rather then destroy and recreated it (again i would remind you that the destroying part means killing a lot of people)

His sacrifice was a selfish one, and that makes a big difference to me.

light yagami

Light Yagami felt that what he did was not completely logical and that he had to sacrifice himself because of his sins?
Maybe I should re-watch Death Note...

good for you
too bad that it means you are judging his actions by "lelouch is cool, so his actions are cool" rather then the normal "his actions are cool, so he is cool"

Nope, I'm doing neither.
Instead, I say: "Lelouch's reasons are awesome, his looks are awesome, his personality is awesome... and his actions are interesting."

his actions as ZERO were morally questionable (he wasnt TRYING to be a monster)
his actions in the final arc are monsterus
and a happen to judge a character by its actions
ali al sarches from gundam 00 is super awesome and cool to some people
doesnt prevent him form being a complete monster with no redeeming traits whatsoever
lelouch WAS a likable character during most of the show, but he wasnt one in the last arc (anything reason i had to like him during that arc was my memory of his character in the past)
and only his death saved him from being a character i completely hate

I never found him to be not-likeable, but I'm a fangirl, so I might be biased.
Just like everyone else.

[bladeofdarkness]

which action that he takes in the last arc did you find awesome ?
i dont give a fuck about his reasons, just his actions
which ones ?